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The Cage-WNMHGB-TOS -TAS-TMP-TWOK timeframe

newtontomato539

Commander
Red Shirt
I remember reading the Romulan Way prose novel. I thought the idea of another five year mission after TAS was cool. Then I read Okuda Chronology/Encyclopedia. WHhhaaaaaaaa!? Never happened!?

Geez.

TMP's 2 1/2 years after the TOS-TAS makes no sense. They look too old. This isn't Doctor Who.

I like this:

Final Frontier five year mission
The Cage five year mission
WNMHGB five mission
TOS/TAS five mission
five year mission
2 1/2 years
TMP - TWOK five mission

Agree? Disagree?
 
WNMHGB five mission
TOS/TAS five mission

That is wrong, only one five year mission there not 2, as for the rest who knows. I agree that TMP just 2 1/2 years after TOS seems to soon for several reasons. If we only had 2 1/2 years after TOS, then thats about 12 years between TMP and TWOK, since Kirk says he has not seen Khan in 15 years. Of course PhaseII was suppose to be in there somewhere, but since it never aired it is not really canon.

We do know that it was at least a minimum of 3 years between V and VI since Sulu stated he was ending a 3 year mission, so it is concievable that even 5 or 6 years could have passed between those 2 movies.
 
TMP's 2 1/2 years after the TOS-TAS makes no sense. They look too old. This isn't Doctor Who.

The Chronology didn't make that up. It's right there in TMP's dialogue -- Kirk references "my five years out there," precluding the possibility of a second 5-year tour pre-TMP, and he says he's spent two and a half years as Chief of Starfleet Operations.

Evidently, the filmmakers' intention was in fact that the interval between TOS and TMP was considerably less in-universe than in real life. And I don't think they look too old. They don't look substantially older to me in TMP than they did in TOS. Now, compare TWOK through TFF, four movies that came out over a span of seven years but cover no more than 9-10 months of story time (and that's only if you accept Harve Bennett's assertion that there's a 6-month shakedown cruise prior to TFF). The actors aged a lot more than the characters would have. That's just part of the illusion of filmmaking.


I like this:

Final Frontier five year mission
The Cage five year mission
WNMHGB five mission
TOS/TAS five mission
five year mission
2 1/2 years
TMP - TWOK five mission

Agree? Disagree?

Well, first off, we know "The Cage" was 13 years before TOS and that Spock served under Pike for 11 years, so there's no way that adds up. And if you're referring to the novel Final Frontier, it's impossible to reconcile with modern canon, since (among other inconsistencies) it assumes TOS took place in the first decade of the 2200s (i.e. the timeline assumed in the 1980 Spaceflight Chronology), and that contradicts modern Trek, which explicitly says (in VGR: "Q2") that Kirk's "historic five-year mission" ended in 2270.

I'm always surprised by how rarely people question the assumption that 5-year missions are the norm. I mean, we only have canonical evidence that one ship had one 5-year mission. Without any corroborating examples, there's no way of knowing if that was normal, unique, or somewhere in between. A single example just doesn't let you determine a pattern.

Indeed, strictly speaking, if you discount the opening narration as metatextual, the only actual in-story evidence we have that the E's tour was five years long comes from the TMP and VGR references I cited above. So all we know for a fact is that Kirk's mission in TOS/TAS lasted five years; we have no canonical proof that the ship was actually assigned to a mission of that duration.

And really, where's the sense in assuming that every mission profile has the same duration? Do starships only do one thing? Sure, a 5-year general patrol/survey/colony support tour is one possible mission profile, but there must be others. For instance, the Enterprise's trip to the edge of the galaxy in the second pilot. The nearest face of the galactic disk is at least 500 light-years away (going perpendicular to the plane of the disk, of course), so the round trip would probably take months. To me, it doesn't seem logical that that would be part of a general 5-year patrol; it seems more like it would be a special mission all its own, with a duration of as long as was needed to complete it.

In my view, Kirk got command of the ship in 2265, his first assignment was this months-long mission to the edge of the galaxy, and then once the ship finally limped home, it underwent a refit and crew reassignments before being sent on a new, different mission, which was a general 5-year survey tour. After TMP, it could've had mission profiles of all sorts of types and durations. And to me that's a lot more interesting and imaginative than just mechanically tossing in one "5-year mission" after another.
 
he says he's spent two and a half years as Chief of Starfleet Operations.

But that is just Chief of Starfleet operations, who is to say that Kirk was promoted to Admiral (or Commodore) right after the 5 year mission, stayed a regular Admiral (or even Commodore then Admiral) for X number of years, then was promoted to Chief of Starfleet Operations. Could you go right from Captain to CSO without time as an Admiral or Commodore, seems suspect...but hey it's Kirk :)
 
It's just never felt to me that TMP indicated that great a passage of time. I mean, Scott, Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov had all gone up only one grade in rank since we last saw them in TAS. That suggests that not very much time had passed, since they were probably all due for promotions at the end of the 5YM anyway.

Besides, there's no indication that anyone commanded the Enterprise between Kirk and Decker. Would they have just let the ship sit around in mothballs for several years before refitting it?
 
Besides, there's no indication that anyone commanded the Enterprise between Kirk and Decker. Would they have just let the ship sit around in mothballs for several years before refitting it?
Actually, that's an interesting question. Kirk's been at Starfleet for "two and a half years" and Scott says they spent "eighteen months" or 1.5 years "redesigning and refitting the Enterprise." So, what happened to the other year? I'd guess the ship was either mothballed for a year or it was dissected and analyzed in order to figure out what needed to be done for the refit. You bring a ship back after 5 years "out there" and maybe you want to take it apart piece by piece and see how it fared.
 
since Sulu stated he was ending a 3 year mission
The ship was completing a three year mission, Sulu wouldn't have had to of been it's captain the entire time, he could have replace another captain at some point as part of a standard rotation.

It's not that unusual for a modern naval captain to be replaced while the ship is at sea. The previous captain moving to a new assignment.

:)
 
Kirk references "my five years out there," precluding the possibility of a second 5-year tour pre-TMP, and he says he's spent two and a half years as Chief of Starfleet Operations.

Kirk's "five years out there" is also odd because, while the Enterprise had a five year mission, Kirk was on other ships before that. He certainly spent MORE than five years in space by the time TMP began, due to his time on the Farragut and the Republic. He didn't say "as captain," although it may have been what they meant. Or they just didn't want to confuse the audience who had "five year mission" on the brain. Anyway, "five years out there" doesn't seem like a long time for a space veteran Admiral.
 
Actually, that's an interesting question. Kirk's been at Starfleet for "two and a half years" and Scott says they spent "eighteen months" or 1.5 years "redesigning and refitting the Enterprise." So, what happened to the other year?

This is actually addressed in my novel Forgotten History, which is due to be released in less than a month.


Kirk's "five years out there" is also odd because, while the Enterprise had a five year mission, Kirk was on other ships before that. He certainly spent MORE than five years in space by the time TMP began, due to his time on the Farragut and the Republic. He didn't say "as captain," although it may have been what they meant. Or they just didn't want to confuse the audience who had "five year mission" on the brain. Anyway, "five years out there" doesn't seem like a long time for a space veteran Admiral.

Yes, it's a problematical line, and I'd be happier if he'd just said "My years out there" or something like that. But one possible interpretation is that most starship tours are shorter and spending a full five years on the frontier was a notable feat of endurance. So he wasn't saying he'd only spent five years total "out there," but that he'd successfully pulled off the unusual feat of spending five uninterrupted years out there, after assorted previous tours of shorter duration. All the more reason to reject the unexamined assumption that 5-year missions are standard.
 
It's just never felt to me that TMP indicated that great a passage of time. I mean, Scott, Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov had all gone up only one grade in rank since we last saw them in TAS.
On the other hand, Sulu had found time to have a family. It would appear plausible enough that these people would take a breather from Starfleet work after the strenuous five years, leaving only Kirk himself obsessed with promotion.

Besides, there's no indication that anyone commanded the Enterprise between Kirk and Decker. Would they have just let the ship sit around in mothballs for several years before refitting it?
Absence of evidence shouldn't count, as it should rather be the default assumption that the ship would get a succession of skippers and crews.

We never heard of April until we did. Or of Decker, or Spock. No doubt Captains Dunsel and Herbert could have slipped through the cracks.

And we can't use the ST:GEN reporter's "First Enterprise without a Kirk in command" line to argue either way here, as this line exists despite Decker and Spock briefly commanding the ship. Supposedly, the line would hold true as long as Kirk had a hand in commanding said ship, despite several other skippers also doing so.

Kirk's "five years out there" is also odd
But let's remember how Kirk's CV line goes in its entirety!

"My experience - five years out there, dealing with unknowns like this, my familiarity with the Enterprise, this crew."

So, if we treat the experience as three items rather than four, then only five years involving a) being out there and b) dealing with unknowns like this should count. TOS fits the description smack on. The typical Starfleet assignment might not.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The Enterprise was launched in 2245 under the command of Robert April on one five-year mission. After which point Christopher Pike assumed command. Spock stated that he served under Pike for 13 years, so that would be two tours and refit time (during which time the crew could have been boosted from 207 to 430).

Kirk then assumed command in 2265 and led another five-year mission. After which point the ship went in for an extensive refit for around two years. She would have relaunched in 2272 and then went on either one or two five-year mission(s), before the ship was attached to the Academy as a training ship by 2285.

In my head the ship's life is something like this:
2245 - Commissioned under Robert April
2250 - End of first tour. Christopher Pike assumes command. Enterprise goes in for refit work
2251 - Second tour begins
2256 - Second tour ends. Enterprise goes in for refit work
2258 - Third tour begins
2263 - Third tour ends. Enterprise goes in for refit work
2265 - James Kirk assumes command. Fourth tour begins
2270 - Fourth tour ends. Enterprise goes in for refit work
2272 - Fifth tour begins
2277 - Fifth tour ends. Enterprise goes in for refit work
2278 - Sixth tour begins
2283 - Sixth tour ends. Enterprise goes in for refit work
2284 - Attached to Starfleet Academy
2285 - Destroyed at Genesis
 
Spock stated that he served under Pike for 13 years...

No, he served under Pike for 11 years, 4 months, 5 days. The reference to 13 years was for the interval betwen the events of "The Cage" and the events of "The Menagerie."

, so that would be two tours and refit time (during which time the crew could have been boosted from 207 to 430).

Again, why assume that every "tour" has to be 5 years long? We have only one example of a 5-year mission. We've never heard of any other starship at any other time being assigned to a 5-year mission. In fact, the only other specific mission duration we've ever heard cited was 3 years for the Excelsior prior to TUC. If anything, the lack of other references suggests that 5-year missions are anything but normal.

What I've assumed in my Trek fiction for Pocket Books is that five years is the maximum recommended time between refits for a Constitution-class ship, so Starfleet prefers for a ship that's been out that long to be brought in for refitting and crew reassignment (since five years is a long and exhausting mission duration and most personnel would probably welcome reassignment to something less strenuous or closer to home). But there could easily be numerous other, shorter mission profiles. The way I've broken down the Enterprise's service under Kirk's tenure is as follows:

2265: Kirk given captaincy, assigned to months-long mission to galactic edge. Upon return, the damaged ship is refitted.
2266-70: A general patrol/survey tour, ending when the 5-year maximum is reached (a landmark which many ships fail to achieve).
2271: Ship is idle until refit is ready to begin.
2272-3: 18-month refit.
2273-8: A second general patrol/survey tour which also reaches the 5-year maximum. (I had to accept the "second five-year mission" assumption to stay consistent with prior novels set in this period; given the choice, I might have gone a different route. In the alternative continuity of David R. George III's Crucible trilogy, he has the ship undertake a 7-year deep-space exploration mission after TMP.)
2278-85: Enterprise becomes Admiral Kirk's flagship under Captain Spock's command, assigned to a variety of special short-term missions as needed and serving as a training vessel and research platform at other times. During Kirk's retirement from 2282-84 (as seen in Generations), this does not substantially change.
2285: Enterprise destroyed.

As for the ship's tenure under Pike, I have as yet made no assumptions about mission duration. We know how long Spock served under Pike, and we know when "The Cage" took place, but we don't know how long Pike commanded the Enterprise before Spock came aboard. However, the Early Voyages comic from Marvel did assume that Pike's first assignment on the Enterprise was a "five-year mission," and that Spock came aboard at the beginning, which would leave an additional six-odd years unaccounted for.
 
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Significantly, we have never heard of a preset mission length. Sulu's mission was established as having been three years long when it was over. Kirk's mission was quoted as having been five years long several years afterwards. Nobody in Star Trek uses the concept "X-year mission" for anything but already completed sorties.

(Does anybody use the expression at all, outside VOY "Q2" where Icheb describes Kirk's "historic" sortie thusly?)

Timo Saloniemi
 
I remember reading the Romulan Way prose novel. I thought the idea of another five year mission after TAS was cool. Then I read Okuda Chronology/Encyclopedia. WHhhaaaaaaaa!? Never happened!?

Geez.

TMP's 2 1/2 years after the TOS-TAS makes no sense. They look too old. This isn't Doctor Who.

I like this:

Final Frontier five year mission
The Cage five year mission
WNMHGB five mission
TOS/TAS five mission
five year mission
2 1/2 years
TMP - TWOK five mission

Agree? Disagree?


What in the world are you doing placing Final Frontier before The Cage?

As for the ages of the characters in TMP, it was known at the time the actors were about 15 years older, and yet the decision was made to say the movie took place 2.5 years after the "five year mission". The characters were not as much older as the actors playing them.

Later, the Chronology set in stone several things, including TAS never having happened (except select factoids), and the fact that TMP takes place about 30 months after the end of the five year mission.

This is how it is.

My advice to you is ACCEPT IT.

We can say "I wish that..." and such mental wanderings are fine, but to try and assert things "might have been different" is stuff and nonsense. Things are how they are.

You might as well try to get a tribble to like a Klingon, or the other way around.
 
What in the world are you doing placing Final Frontier before The Cage?
It's not the movie where Kirk meets God, but the Diane Carey novel where Kirk's dad meets Captain April. And despite what Christopher recently said, it's not all that incompatible with the rest of the timeline, as long as one ignores the specific dates used.

the decision was made to say the movie took place 2.5 years after the "five year mission".
..But apparently not implemented, as the movie only states that it takes place at least 2.5 years after TOS - and indeed must take place no earlier than 2278, as per the "Voyager 6 was launched over three centuries ago" line, and quite possibly in 2279 sharp as per the at the time somewhat popular model of the movie (and TOS) taking place exactly 300 years after their airing.

the Chronology set in stone several things
...But was ignored by the writers of the actual shows.

My advice to you is ACCEPT IT.
That would be a grave mistake, as it would set you at odds with much of recent Trek which completely ignores it and chooses different paths.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The Trek Chronology was itself stated as a "best guess" by the authors, subject to change as further facts were revealed and open to re-interpretation. It's a good timeline, but hardly definitive.
 
..the movie only states that it takes place at least 2.5 years after TOS - and indeed must take place no earlier than 2278, as per the "Voyager 6 was launched over three centuries ago" line, and quite possibly in 2279 sharp as per the at the time somewhat popular model of the movie (and TOS) taking place exactly 300 years after their airing.

Decker might not have known exactly when Voyager 6 was launched, down to the date. He was probably ball-parking it.
 
Fair enough. And in the Trek universe, the space program might have been ahead of times in the seventies already, despite the Apollo program being somewhat in synch with "our" version of it in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"; Voyager 6 might have been launched in 1965 or so already. But while this is no problem in-universe, it may offer an insight into what the writers of the movie were thinking.

It's not as if the TOS adventures are fresh in the minds of the heroes or anything. It seems to be ages since (some of) the heroes last met; everybody has aged; and if there hasn't been skyrocketing rank progression for everybody in the intervening "decade", well, that's merely realism, even if the rest of Trek often goes for unrealistically fast rates of promotion.

TMP is the most easily moveable piece in the puzzle in any case, as the other movies don't refer back to it, and the spinoff series don't dwell on the V'Ger case, either. Any vague reference in the spinoffs to a calamity affecting Earth at this time (say, "state of emergency declared" remarks from DS9 "Homefront") could be in reference to the similar calamities from the other movies...

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'll be honest, if we go strictly by character dialogue in reference to historical events to date events in Star Trek, then Space Seed took place in 2196 (two hundred years after Khan left Earth) but The Squire of Gothos took place in the 27th century or later, since it was supposed to be 900 years after the 18th/19th century.
 
Yet references to "two centuries" cannot be seriously taken as references to "200 years" in everyday dialogue, unless it's specifically the bicentennial celebrations that are being discussed... And none of the TOS references to centuries are of that specific type. Also, the one outlier, the nine-centuries-as-per-distance thing, is the work of an explicitly fallible creature on a mobile planet. So "going strictly by" there would appear to be an indefensible position, regardless of the results or other factors.

What we can argue for is the accumulation of evidence for TOS being (very) roughly 200 years in the future of the sixties. But no single datapoint can be taken as anything like "authoritative" or accurate; indeed, it would be a logical error (and a violation of the rules regarding significant digits) to treat them as such.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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