The Cage, The Menagerie and Canon
- Thread starter Methuselah Flint
- Start date
We also don't know how long Kirk stood there with that big grin on his face, prior to The Keeper calling out to him.
The power of editing!
Yeah. The film editor was supposed to put in a little "time lapse" visual clue, but maybe couldn't due to the hasty and simple way Shatner's final scene was shot.
I want to know how Spock got Pike-in-chair up the transporter's stairs?
They have antigravs.
We don't know the duration of Kirk's pursuit in the shuttlecraft or how much time was spent trying to regain control of the Enterprise (which they couldn't do "despite their best efforts.")
As for the ending, the Talosians just finished showing the court the events from 13 years ago on the screen; showing Kirk a preview of what Pike could expect on the same screen would be no difficult temporal feat.
As for the ending, the Talosians just finished showing the court the events from 13 years ago on the screen; showing Kirk a preview of what Pike could expect on the same screen would be no difficult temporal feat.
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That or his usual taking the Michael out of Spock in the courtroom was an illusion and the real Pike was already being beamed down when the Magistrate/Keeper appeared on the screen? 
JB
JB
Is that really true? What a guess!
If so I have to agree with the editor's decision, since it would have affected the pacing of the end of the episode
We don't know, but we can guess. A shuttle chase more than, oh, four hours long would involve bathroom breaks, necessarily also breaking the flow and ruining the mood; there would be debate, and then there would be fisticuffs, and then the chase might continue, but with only Kirk conscious.
And the "best efforts" might generously be allotted two days before the heroes saw reason. None of this amounts to the week we desire, no way how we turn it.
Indeed. The fun thing is, though, the events from 13 years ago themselves couldn't possibly have taken six days. Two is a more likely maximum, with Pike turning down the beverages slipped into his cell despite basically being on the verge of collapsing from thirst.
Okay, if we had three parallel viewpoints, and each was dutifully followed for the full two days... But we only have two, really.
Timo Saloniemi
Pike doesn't have to beam down for the illusion to start. The Keeper can go ahead and link up Pike's and Vina's shared illusion no matter where their bodies are. Vina might physically be present but Pike never will be. He'll always be in his chair in a room somewhere mentally linked to the illusion. Whether he's on the ship or on the planet doesn't matter.
^^^
I can buy that explanation of the ending scene - never thought of it that way.
Pike actually ends up in a crevasse somewhere behind that elevator, joining the rotting corpse of Vina there. The whole point of the exercise is to get the Enterprise to the scene so that her crew count can be lowered from 430 to 207 with nobody much noticing, and the Talosians can finally get their slave race started for good...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
In the Star Trek Universe Davros is a respected scientistI want to know how Spock got Pike-in-chair up the transporter's stairs?
I know it's beyond a long shot, but I'd love to see even a cameo by any of the characters from that comic in Strange New Worlds.
Is there some reason they wouldn't still be hazel?
I want to know how Spock got Pike-in-chair up the transporter's stairs?
Vulcans also tend to be quite strong...
We have some indication of the duration of those events. "The Menagerie Part 3" opens with a summary of part one, which begins with Kirk's log:
The previus stardates mentioned in "The Menagerie Part 1" are:
At the hearing, Spock requests immediate court martial. So the hearing ends and then the court martial opens an unspecified time period later. And when the court martial begins:
So if there are fewer than about 25 hours in "The past twenty four hours" and if Kirk is counting from 3012.6 to 3013.1, there are fewer than 25 hours in 0.5 stardate units, and thus fewer than 0.48979 (zero point four eight nine seven nine) stardate units per day and fewer than 0.020408 (zero point zero two zero four zero eight) stardate units per hour.
So if there are fewer than about 25 hours in "The past twenty four hours" and if Kirk is counting from 3012.4 to 3013.1, there are fewer than 25 hours in 0.7 stardate units, and thus fewer than 0.68571 (zero point six eight five seven one) stardate units per day and fewer than 0.028571 (zero point zero two zero eight five seven one) stardate units per hour.
Later in "The Menagerie Part 2" the court martial has adjoined and reconvened and Kirk's log says:
So if there are fewer than 0.028571 (zero point zero two zero eight five seven one) stardate units per hour the 0.1 stardate units between 1313.1 and 1313.2 should be at least 3.5000 (three point.five zero zero zero) hours and they should reach Talos IV before stardate 1313.2999..
So if there are fewer than 0.020408 (zero point zero two zero eight five seven one) stardate units per hour the 0.1 stardate units between 1313.1 and 1313.2 should be at least 4.9000 four point nine zero zero zero) hours and they should reach Talos IV before stardate 1313.2999.
If you assume that that at least eight hours passed between stardates 1312.6 and 1313.1, while the court martial saw the evidence, and then was in recess and the characters slept over night and had beakfast before reconvening the court martial, 0.5 stadate units should equal al least 8 hours. So there should be fewer than 0.0625 (zero point zero six two five) stardate units per hour.
Thus the Enterprise should arrive at Talos IV by stardate 1313.2625, which is 0.8625 (zero point eight six two five) stardate units after the earliest stardate in "The Menagerie", stardate 1312.4. That is no more than 13.8 (thirteen point eight hours).
23 hours before stardate 1313.1 would be no earlier than stardate 1311.6625.
24 hours before stardate 1313.1 would be no earlier than stardate 1311.6.
25 hours before stardate 1313.1 would be no earlier than stardate 1311.5375.
So it seems possible that Kirk's events of the past twenty four hours included events since Kirk boarded the Enterprisse, or events since the Enterprise left Starbase 11, or events since the Enterprise arrived at Starbase 11, or events since the Enterprise "received" a fake message to divert to Starbase 11.
I have never thought of Kirk's 24 hours as beginning when the court martial began or as beginning when the hearing began. I always thought that Kirk's 24 hours began with the beginning of the episode.
Have you ever thought of a career as a writer of horror fiction?
An alterative theory could be that Pike never returned to the Enterprise in "The Cage", being replaced by a Talosian agent for some purpose, and that the purpose of the exercise was for the Talosian agent to return home after their tour of duty was finished, with no doubt some other officer being replaced by a Talosian agent to continue to misssion.
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Pike must be able to feel like he's living and breathing like a normal human being or else what's the point of his going to Talos IV in the first place? The same for vina who must believe that she is an attractive young woman rather than a hideous malformed old hag! 
JB
JB
Which doesn't work, because we saw a post-"Cage" Pike throughout Discovery season 2, and we saw his reaction to returning to Talos, as well as his reaction to learning about his future accident. He couldn't be a Talosian pretending to be Pike, even aside from the fact that he's about to star in his own spinoff (or technically the highly delayed series pickup of the original pilot).
If it was me, I'd be counting from the moment Spock hijacked the Enterprise. That's the moment the emotional pain starts. While the plan was unfolding prior, Kirk wasn't aware of it. The first event he finds "hard to believe" is Spock stealing the ship.
The first unbelievable hijink by Spock came months prior, with him censoring the news on Pike's accident. Kirk could easily gloss over that one, but (nods to Serveaux) the censoring seems to have been committed out of sheer sadism. What would the practical benefit be? If Kirk learned of the accident immediately, he'd go to Pike faster, and Spock could kidnap him faster.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Both are canon.Which parts are in continuity is probably up to the people using those parts for a new story.
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