Yup, my market did too. I didn’t know it was production order, I just watched them.
Poll The Cage or The Menagerie
- Thread starter Methuselah Flint
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Yup, my market did too. I didn’t know it was production order, I just watched them.
Rotating ridges!
I was going to object to this, but you went on to answer your own question:
The thing is; people do like to watch several episodes or a whole season in one stretch, be that in one seating or over the course.We live in a binging culture, after all! The first half of season 1 especially saw massive changes in that regard, as the series found its footing. TOS is light by continuity by modern standards, but viewing the series in production order does bring out what is there.
Since we are talking about the evolution and development of the characters, this is more about worldbuilding than aesthetics. Although personally, I do like to see the changes in particular sets as time goes by
Is there really a viewing advantage in having the drastically different WNMHG as the third episode of the run?
Ah but as soon as the show is up and running, say The Menagerie, it’s all meaningless. The second season, for example, was shot with episodes to be aired at certain times. Catspaw was always the Halloween episode. Amok Time was a stronger opener.
We are binging culture? Maybe but binging tv came with steaming for the most part and most people who stream don’t buy dvds. And check Netflix and Amazon. They’re in airdate order.
Episodic television doesn’t need to be in any order. Unless you’re the first season of Land of the Giants. That show was gutted by ABC when they shuffled it.
A lot of the stuff fans pick out as part of the evolution world go over the heads of most people. They wouldn’t care. Heck, when they released the TOS-R versions on broadcast TV they were totally random.
It’s personal preference. I am fine with experiencing the series as audiences first saw it in the 60’s. But I also like it in production order. I actually have the series on video files organized both ways.
We are binging culture? Maybe but binging tv came with steaming for the most part and most people who stream don’t buy dvds. And check Netflix and Amazon. They’re in airdate order.
Episodic television doesn’t need to be in any order. Unless you’re the first season of Land of the Giants. That show was gutted by ABC when they shuffled it.
A lot of the stuff fans pick out as part of the evolution world go over the heads of most people. They wouldn’t care. Heck, when they released the TOS-R versions on broadcast TV they were totally random.
It’s personal preference. I am fine with experiencing the series as audiences first saw it in the 60’s. But I also like it in production order. I actually have the series on video files organized both ways.
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For whatever reason, the 1985-88 video releases came out in batches of ten in broadcast order. The boxes themselves, however, were numbered by production order. That's why #1 (the BW/color "Cage") didn't show up until its special release in the fall of '86.
The episodes were assigned internal production codes with a sequential hyphenated number at the end: "Where No Man" was "-2", "Corbomite" was "-3" and so on through "-79" for "Turnabout Intruder". That is where we get what we think of as "production order." I suspect those numbers were passed on in the syndication package some way (maybe on actual film cans originally?), as they were reflected in the rerun order Mr. Spook and I mentioned earlier.
If Paramount handled it the same was as Fox did Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, they sent out press kits for syndicated stations with episode information. The information would include the production numbers of each episode, cast, writer, director, and episode synopses. Maybe even highest ratings in certain markets and actor biographies (the Voyage press kit is extensive and a lot of fun for me). So using that info, your local stations could program them in production number order.
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C'mon Spook, don't leave us hanging!!!
As to your earlier points: Yes it's personal preference on my part but the developmental moments are there nonetheless and will appeal to a certain section of fandom. If the rest of the viewers don't care about such things and will watch the episodes in any order, why NOT sell them in Production Order? Who is benefiting from Airdate Order?
Fair point, but while "production" can refer to the entire process, in this instance it really just means "order of filming"
Corbomite was indeed held back for ages due to the complex visuals needed for that episode, which is why despite being a brilliant opener to the series (everyone gets a nice little introduction) it was held back to 10th place
C'mon Spook, don't leave us hanging!!!
Ha, sorry, I thought I erased that line!
Well, honestly, there isn’t any legit reason why they can’t put then in production order other than “that’s not the industry standard.” And having them on Blu Ray in box sets in that order would be a really nice change. Some other shows, like the Irwin Allen series, were released in the UK in production order.
Or course, when they did that with The Time Tunnel, they had to remove the cliffhangers to make it work, which teed off a lot of fans. So the Blu Rays are back in airdate order. But for Voyage, it makes no difference in the enjoyment of the series. For Land of the Giants, it absolutely does. The first half of the first season wasn’t a serial per se, but the reveal of the giant world and the attitude changes of a few characters were spread out over time. ABC shuffled the order and it made certain character beats muddy.
Star Trek: sure, having the second pilot run first, followed by the two episodes with Uhura in gold, the adolescent pining of Charlie Evans later on (I never liked that as the second episode) would be a benefit if you’re watching the series in order probably for the first time. However, the only reason I would keep it in airdate order was if I was creating a home video set that was structured to capture Night of Broadcast presentation. With previews before the end credits, the proper version of the main title music in the first season, the “created by” in the right place for the first two aired episodes, network promos and original commercials. A true Collector’s Edition, again much like Lost in Space or The Twilight Zone.
But really, almost nobody releases American TV Shows in production order in the states. Why should Star Trek be any different? If they put out TNG in production order, Tasha Yar would have died before her final first season appearance and Unification Part 2 would have been before Part One. Original Trek didn't have that problem, thankfully.
Had I a gazillion dollars, I’d make a set like that plus a separate “Production Order Set” for binging fans.
I’m really not disagreeing with you, I find watching them both ways to be beneficial: airdate to see how audiences experienced it for the first time and production to study the evolution of the program.
The there’s stardate order, which Columbia House used (almost correctly) back in the 80’s.
When I rewatch the series, I always start with The Cage. Most of the pilot (about 55 out of 64 minutes) is in The Menagerie, but that two parter is much more about Spock's loyalties with the Pilot cut in to show, in the end, how the Talosians can help the now immobile Pike.
It's the internet - nothing's ever really gone!
Oh wait...wrong franchise
Your points are all perfectly valid. TBH it's just annoying to have to constantly pop in and pop out my BluRays in order to view them in my preferred order
Your points are all perfectly valid. TBH it's just annoying to have to constantly pop in and pop out my BluRays in order to view them in my preferred order
You shoulda kept those two-episodes each DVDs from 1999-2001.
I must be honest - the BluRays are the first officially produced versions of the episodes I've ever owned! My VHS were taped off the TV, my DVDs were copies off a friend (hence I could put them in any order I pleased).You shoulda kept those two-episodes each DVDs from 1999-2001.
Still, I am now 100% legitimate in my TOS and TAS collection!
But boy had he (she) changed in Discovery! And yet that episode was between the two meetings???
JB
Although we'll never truly know the real answer, I believe The Talosians, I think, wanted to know the lives of their human colony on the surface through telepathy and experience their every feeling of their day to day lives!
JB
Where do we get the production order of TOS episodes from?
The Making of Star Trek (1968) should give the dates that the two pilots were filmed.
David Gerrold's The Trouble With Tribbles (1973) should give the dates that "The Trouble With Tribbles" was filmed. And as I remember it lists several other episdoses that were filmed while Gerrold was on the set finishing his script, in the order that they were filmed.
David Gerrold's The World of Star Trek (1973) has a list of all the TOS episodes at the end, which might be in either broadcast order or production order, I don't remember.
I think that the Star Trek Compendium ((1993), by Alan Asherman, gives the filming dates of each TOS episode.
And Memory Alpha gives the dates that each episode of each series was filmed. In fact it usually gives a list of many dates from buying the first story outline to completing post production and editing and delivering the completed episode to NBC.
Wikipedia has articles on the TOS episodes with accounts of their production including the dates of filming.
Assuming that those sources and others are accurate, we can know the production order of TOS episodes from the dates they were filmed.
Therefore your statement that we know the production order of TOS episodes from their production numbers is an oversimplification.
This list is a convenient place to check the production order all at once:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series_episodes#Production_order
As to "how we know," as you suggest it's just a well-documented thing.
It's just a fact. The production code numbers found their way into publications in the '70s (probably through behind-scenes material from Lincoln Enterprises) and have been the basis of production order ever since, regardless of when episodes were completed. None of the other sources that came along in the internet age have changed that.
The Asherman Compendium (first published 1981) did not include shooting date information.
I prefer production order. It's one of the reasons I've been picking up the old 'volume' DVDs from the late 90s/early 00s, because they're presented in that order. Although I also acknowledge that after season one, it seldom matters too much. Theoretically after probably the first dozen or so episodes, after uniform inconsistencies etc get ironed out. Although I found Stardate Order curiously fascinating the last time I rewatched and tried that, in some cases it works surprisingly well, and of course establishes Chekov aboard the Enterprise prior to 'Space Seed' to boot.
On the poll question itself, I used to adore The Cage for it's different-ness, and used to watch it first as a kind of Star Trek movie and skip The Menagerie for that reason, but as I've gotten older I've become much more inclined to watch The Menagerie and skip The Cage instead. The Menagerie is a good character building piece for the then-cast: reflecting that although Spock has a strong personal friendship with Kirk, he has a loyalty to Pike that over-rides it. I find that difference in interpersonal dynamic fascinating to watch, and I'm kind of pleased that Discovery and the Short Treks are exploring the reasons behind that maybe a little more.
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