Poll The Cage or The Menagerie

[Methuselah Flint]

Oh absolutely I agree! And that energy barrier score from Where No Man is pure horror. I think its use in Zetar was much better.

 

[J.T.B.]

So you’d place “The Cage” after TOS S3, as on the DVD/Blu-ray releases? That’s also an option which minimizes duplication, since the original intent was for “The Menagierie” to make it usable. I’m just looking for something interesting for the first pilot to do rather than remain that kind of an afterthought, an S3 special feature in effect.

I first saw "The Cage" after I had been watching Star Trek for about 15 years, so it has always seemed like bonus material to me.

I have said this many times, but "The Menagerie" was maybe the most mind-blowing OS episode to me as a kid in the '70s. I knew nothing of an unused pilot, I just knew that here was an episode flashing back to an earlier time from the regular series and everything looked like it was from an earlier time. Just like Happy Days had older cars, furniture, clothes etc. The idea that the future had a past that was still in our future was something I'd never seen or even thought of seeing before, and I was blown away that Star Trek had pulled it off.

 

[Timo]

Spock was supposed to be locked up when Part One ended. They took him away. He's back in the teaser as if he never left.I know the Talosians restarted the ''movie'' again in the briefing room, but they left Spock in a bad position for several minutes.

I never really thought about that too much. I just assumed that part 2 started after a recess can wherein Spock had been in custody overnight or something.

A pause between the episodes would serve the plot well. After all, Spock tells Pike in Pt I that "It's only six days away at maximum warp", and it's pretty darn difficult to believe that the heroes would sit there watching the telly for six days straight!

Perhaps Kirk made his reputed "best efforts" to disengage the computers over a course of four desperate days, and only then agreed to hold the mandatory hearing?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

Well it did say the next episode was next week!!!
JB

 

[Mytran]

The empty, desolate view of the planet (no surface structures, etc.) may also be an illusion. Possibly, once the veil of illusion was lifted, we would see the real destroyed planet with ruins of cities, etc.

I suspect there is no distance limit, hence their true power, and hence the death sentence restriction on the planet. This puts the Talosians in total control of who they want to visit the planet and who not.

If that's the case then they're akin to the Q in terms of their omniscience and omnipotence! Pretty fine achievement for finite physical beings. Their power does appear to extend almost as far as Starbase 11 though.

At the very least the exclusion zone should be extended!

A pause between the episodes would serve the plot well.
...
Perhaps Kirk made his reputed "best efforts" to disengage the computers over a course of four desperate days, and only then agreed to hold the mandatory hearing?

Timo Saloniemi

Certainly a possibility - Kirk doesn't make his first log entry until just before the court martial begins, around 24 hours before their ETA at Talos

 

[Methuselah Flint]

It's funny...the one line cut from The Cage that would have been better suited left in, was when the Keeper talks of their race having a life span many times ours. He appears exactly the same in the Menagerie as he does the Cage.

 

[Noname Given]

I struggled to suspend disbelief that the Talosians were sending images to their viewscreen, and the crew just watched it like a TV show in the middle of a crisis. At the end the Talosians even said they created the illusion of the commodore and provided the images to distract the crew from solving the problem of their ship being hijacked. Kirk should have locked Spock up from the very beginning on his authority as captain and held a trial as soon as the crisis was over. It also seems like Kirk would have insisted on the exact details of how the video record was being transmitted.

Possible Explanations:

• Maybe Kirk held the trial out of curiosity.
• Maybe Kirk trusted Spock and on some level hoped he would get to Talos.
• Maybe Kirk assigned teams of officers and crewmembers to work the sabotage problem and thought the work wouldn't proceed any faster with the Kirk looking over their shoulders.

As a clip show designed to save money by reusing old footage it works. As a kid, I totally bought that the design of the ship was 13 years older, like how pictures from the 1970 looked ancient to me when I watched this in 1983. But esp now that you can watch clips any time on streaming video, this show feels forced, like they shoehorned the first pilot into an episode. I'd much rather watch the original episode.

A for the source of the video situation Commodore Mendez did take that up:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16.htm

KIRK: Screen off. Chris, was that really you on the screen? (flash) That's impossible. Mister Spock, no vessel makes record tapes in that detail, that perfect. What were we watching?

SPOCK: I cannot tell you at this time, sir.

MENDEZ: Captain Pike, were any record tapes of this nature made during your voyage? (flash, flash) The court is not obliged to view evidence without knowing its source.

SPOCK: Unless the court asks a prisoner why, Commodore. You did ask that question.

MENDEZ: You mean I was maneuvered into asking. Your evidence is out of order.

KIRK: I am forced to contest that, Commodore. I want to see more.

MENDEZ: You have that right, Captain, but just because the prisoner is your First Officer and your personal friend

KIRK: That has nothing to do with it.

MENDEZ: Very well, continue.

KIRK: Screen on, Mister Scott.

 

[Galileo7]

The Cage

 

[Timo]

It's funny...the one line cut from The Cage that would have been better suited left in, was when the Keeper talks of their race having a life span many times ours. He appears exactly the same in the Menagerie as he does the Cage.

...Just thirteen years later? What should we expect otherwise? Graying hair?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Methuselah Flint]

...Just thirteen years later? What should we expect otherwise? Graying hair?

Timo Saloniemi

Well it would've re-inforced the believability a bit..The dialogue suggests the Talosians are a dying race.

 

[Timo]

The Keeper's generation could well be the last, even if Talosian generations were 25 years long and individuals seldom reached 100 years. The grand program to save the species through kidnapping of alien breeders could have been launched at the very last moment, that is, way, way too late to actually save the species - that's topical realism for ya...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ssosmcin]

I prefer The Menagerie because it has some of the best dialog scenes of the season. It's almost totally devoid of humor and is exactly the way Roddenberry seemed to want Star Trek to be: very serious and formal with moral questions and high concept science fiction. It's not the comfort food that Gene Coon provided.

The argument between Kirk and McCoy about Spock's involvement just crackles. Bones stands up for Spock for the first time...and is totally wrong! It's an amazing scene and the first part is just amazing. I enjoy the second part for the history is gives Spock and the universe, but felt that it could have been shown as an unbroken narrative rather than going back and forth to Kirk, Spock and Mendez watching TV. However, I love the finale and conclusion of Pike's story much better here than in the unaired pilot. It's truly touching and Shatner sells it. It feels important.

 

[Ssosmcin]

So you’d place “The Cage” after TOS S3, as on the DVD/Blu-ray releases?

I'd have a separate disc in volume one with The Pilots (with the unaired version of WNMHGB) and then put all the bonus features there.

After that, the episodes in order...I'm fine with airdate order...and have "network versions" with commercials and network promos via seamless branching. Just go the whole "Lost in Space" or "Twilight Zone" route.

 

[Methuselah Flint]

The Keeper's generation could well be the last, even if Talosian generations were 25 years long and individuals seldom reached 100 years. The grand program to save the species through kidnapping of alien breeders could have been launched at the very last moment, that is, way, way too late to actually save the species - that's topical realism for ya...

Timo Saloniemi

True, but if it was launched at the last minute, it highlights my point even more; that 13 years later they still look the same, is better enforced by that deleted line, than without. Granted we are dealing with an alien metabolism here.

 

[Mytran]

I'd have a separate disc in volume one with The Pilots (with the unaired version of WNMHGB) and then put all the bonus features there.

After that, the episodes in order...I'm fine with airdate order...and have "network versions" with commercials and network promos via seamless branching. Just go the whole "Lost in Space" or "Twilight Zone" route.

Interesting idea..except it should really be in production order, just like the home releases initially were.

Perhaps the "network versions" you mentioned could be the syndication edits for the full nostalgic experience?
As you say, with seamless branching all these things are possible!

 

[Ssosmcin]

As much as a lot of fans seem to prefer a production order, you have to keep in mind that the only reason why it was released in production order on home-video initially, whether we are talking the video tapes, the laser discs or the initial DVDs, is because they weren’t in season box sets. They were put out in groups or say 10 volumes. Once it became the norm for television shows to be released in season box sets, the very great majority of TV shows were released in original air date order. Fans make a big deal out of Star Trek being released an air date order when it’s really the industry standard. The only shows that may be exceptions were correcting really bad jumbling by networks. Those shows had arcs. Star Trek was episodic.

There is literally no story advantage to having them in production order. The reason why it makes any sense to people is purely aesthetic. Because you get to see the uniforms in the sets and the characters evolve. But unless you’re watching the series in a marathon, it doesn’t make any difference. You’re going to cherry pick the episode you want to watch anyway.

The whole purpose of having network versions is to re-create the experience of watching it back then. And you can’t do that if you do it in production order.

It’s never going to happen anyway, and I have every version released on home video in my collection. So I can watch them in production order or air date

 

[BillJ]

The empty, desolate view of the planet (no surface structures, etc.) may also be an illusion. Possibly, once the veil of illusion was lifted, we would see the real destroyed planet with ruins of cities, etc.

Vina said the war had been thousands of years ago. I imagine everything would've been reclaimed by Mother Nature by the time of "The Cage".

 

[J.T.B.]

As much as a lot of fans seem to prefer a production order, you have to keep in mind that the only reason why it was released in production order on home-video initially, whether we are talking the video tapes, the laser discs or the initial DVDs, is because they weren’t in season box sets. They were put out in groups or say 10 volumes. Once it became the norm for television shows to be released in season box sets, the very great majority of TV shows were released in original air date order. Fans make a big deal out of Star Trek being released an air date order when it’s really the industry standard.

I don't disagree but I will add: At least where I lived, syndicated reruns in the '80s were in production order as well, so I was used to that before home video.

 

[Methuselah Flint]

As much as a lot of fans seem to prefer a production order, you have to keep in mind that the only reason why it was released in production order on home-video initially, whether we are talking the video tapes, the laser discs or the initial DVDs, is because they weren’t in season box sets. They were put out in groups or say 10 volumes. Once it became the norm for television shows to be released in season box sets, the very great majority of TV shows were released in original air date order. Fans make a big deal out of Star Trek being released an air date order when it’s really the industry standard. The only shows that may be exceptions were correcting really bad jumbling by networks. Those shows had arcs. Star Trek was episodic.

There is literally no story advantage to having them in production order. The reason why it makes any sense to people is purely aesthetic. Because you get to see the uniforms in the sets and the characters evolve. But unless you’re watching the series in a marathon, it doesn’t make any difference. You’re going to cherry pick the episode you want to watch anyway.

The whole purpose of having network versions is to re-create the experience of watching it back then. And you can’t do that if you do it in production order.

It’s never going to happen anyway, and I have every version released on home video in my collection. So I can watch them in production order or air date

True.
And even then, the term 'production order' is open to interpretation. For instance, whilst the majority of the production was complete, Balance of Terror has a partially original soundtrack, yet also borrows music from Conscience of The King for the episode titles. Likewise, Corbomite Manuever borrows from Charlie X during the poker bluff. I suspect both these stories were held back as the special effects took longer, and so by the time all visual footage was ready, the library cues they were able to use had increased, since Charlie X and Conscience of the King had been fully completed by then.

 

[Noname Given]

Well it would've re-inforced the believability a bit..The dialogue suggests the Talosians are a dying race.

If they can't reproduce (which was why they were trying to find a mating pair of Humans (although how creating a Human colony there would somehow revive the Talosian race is beyond me...); then yes the race is dying, (as in dying out). They could still live another 30 years, 100 years whatever; but without any further procreation, the race dies.