The Buried Age

[Dancing Doctor]

I think you should be pretty familiar with the end of The Motion Picture; I'd recommend seeing it beforehand. And you should probably read the Memory Alpha summary of "For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky" too.

I actually couldn't remember which TOS episode starred the Fabrini, so I went to Memory Beta first, then to Memory Alpha.

Based on the summary on MB, I've grown more interested in reading Ex Machina. To be honest, I was a bit turned off by the back cover summary.

You should probably read the Memory Alpha summary of "For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky" though.

Ah, that's true, familiarity with "For the World is Hollow . . ." would help. I did things all kinds of backwards. I read Ex Machina, then re-watched TMP for the first time in years, then eventually got to "For the World is Hollow . . ." during my viewing of the entire original series (thank you, Netflix!). My Trek re-watch is happening in a linear fashion, but I've kind of been jumping all over while catching up on the books. But Memory Alpha helped me understand the Yonada aspects of it. (I remember being a little confused when I first read The Lost Years way back in the day, before I could do an Internet search to understand the Yonada/Natira references.)

I freaking love Memory Alpha.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

I said I should have been more civil, I said I realized that from your perspective it could look like I was being dishonest, and I didn't press the argument over your evidence that you changed your mind. That's three things I've backed down on in this conversation alone.

But thank you for continuing the conversation; I think that you still don't like me very much, but at least you're no longer accusing me of lying. And I definitely understand your source of frustration with me a little more; my word choice was leading you to think I was BSing you and being arbitrary. So I can work on that. I think that's progress.

I propose we end this part of the conversation; I think it more than fulfilled its purpose.
And about continuing the conversation - you're welcome.

Back on topic: it seems to me like you're not proposing something isolationist; you think that we should be constantly seeking out help from higher powers. If we were isolationist, the Borg would've just fucked us all the way up, because we wouldn't have been exploring enough to find the Caeliar to ask them for help. Remember, Q sent us to the Borg in the first place, and Voyager being sent to the Delta Quadrant was an accident; if anything precipitated the Borg invasion, it was those two events, and neither of those was in the Federation's control.

"you think that we should be constantly seeking out help from higher powers" - hardly; humans can handle most situations. But these by no means are all situations. My original point was that, in the future, if the federation again encounters something similar to manlaroth, then humans will react to this situation very differently from what was presented in 'A buried age'.

But what if the federation doesn't have beings such a Caeliar to rely upon?
Indeed, one wonders how much longer it will be until the federation finds the next borg.
And the question arises - what to do when the federation encounters it.

A natural response to 'Destiny' would be for a strong isolationist movement to emerge within the federation - Q became interested in humans because the federation was expanding rapidly, after all; the borg followed. Then the dominion. A strong case can be made that the federation's recent troubles were due to its 'expansionism', its 'explorations'.

Another response would be for a large part of the federation to embrace transhumanism/genetic enginneering. Trying to become ready for 'what's out there'.

I can also imagine a large federation subculture emerging that chooses to live on ships, due to the fact that it views planets as dangerous to live on - large and easy targets.

 

[Thrawn]

I propose we end this part of the conversation; I think it more than fulfilled its purpose.

Agreed.

Sure, there's nothing wrong with being receptive to help from those more powerful than you. ... occasional and subject to your own choice

humans can handle most situations. But these by no means are all situations.

I actually think your two positions on this seem pretty similar.


As for the rest of your post, I think those are all potentially interesting story ideas, but I won't be annoyed if they don't show up either. It's a bigass Federation; I assume any possible reaction to the Destiny invasion will be had by someone somewhere.

The only thing I disagree with is "a strong isolationist movement"; it's arguable that, indirectly, the Federation's desire to expand led to the Borg invasion. But it's inarguable that, directly, the Titan mission led to its successfully being stopped. I'd think that the Federation's response of continuing exploration efforts even when the fleet is insufficient makes perfect sense.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

A natural response to 'Destiny' would be for a strong isolationist movement to emerge within the federation - Q became interested in humans because the federation was expanding rapidly, after all; the borg followed. Then the dominion. A strong case can be made that the federation's recent troubles were due to its 'expansionism', its 'explorations'.

That gets brought up in Losing the Peace and A Singular Destiny, where the massive rebuilding and relief efforts swamp the Federation, and the Governor of Alpha Centauri proposes a plebiscite to secede from the Federation. And then there's the secretive forces trying to widen the rifts already evident.

Another response would be for a large part of the federation to embrace transhumanism/genetic enginneering. Trying to become ready for 'what's out there'.

Part of me understands the aversion to genetic engineering that the Federation has...and then part of me doesn't. With all the other advances in science and medicine, all that really prevents genetic engineering from being accepted is the lingering stigma.

 

[David cgc]

"Not physically, no."
Not physically and not mentally. Hernandez WAS Caeliar, NOT human. The ending of 'Destiny' makes this as clear as it can be made. Thematically, Hernandez is the half-divine being that reaches full divinity and joins the 'gods of night', while the 'mere mortals' stay behind to pick up the pieces of their defeated civilizaton.

So, Hernandez's role could've been filled by any arbitrary native Caeliar? They would've behaved in the same way she did in the 24th century sections of the novel, performed the same actions, so the books would've ended exactly the same way if Hernandez had declined the transformation and had been dead for thousands of years?

Because you keep making this point that Hernandez was Caeliar, so her actions don't count as human involvement, but the only way that has any merit would be if a native Caeliar, any native Caeliar, would've done what she did.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Sure, there's nothing wrong with being receptive to help from those more powerful than you. ... occasional and subject to your own choice

humans can handle most situations. But these by no means are all situations.

I actually think your two positions on this seem pretty similar.

Not really.

In Christopher's view (expressed in 'The buried age'), the federation is a young adult, who must be allowed to handle himself in order to advance.

Until 'Destiny', this was a sustainable view.
'Destiny' made it clear that the federation is out of its league when faced with 'grown-ups'. It made clear that the federation is merely a child, who needs adult supervision if it is to survive searching for and finding 'grown-ups' aka exploring the galaxy.

Sure, the federation can handle games with other kids from nearby (klingons, romulans, dominion, etc).
But, when faced with the equivalent of a teenager - the borg - the federation was utterly helpless; it needed help from an adult.
And the distance between the federation and the true adults - the Caeliar or the Organians, for example - is gigantic.

The only thing I disagree with is "a strong isolationist movement"; it's arguable that, indirectly, the Federation's desire to expand led to the Borg invasion. But it's inarguable that, directly, the Titan mission led to its successfully being stopped. I'd think that the Federation's response of continuing exploration efforts even when the fleet is insufficient makes perfect sense.

About Caeliar:
Tell me, if you won the lottery once, how big would you estimate your chance of winning the lottery again is?

Finding the Caeliar (who spawned the borg) - just when the borg lauched their genocide, no less - is MINDBOGGINGLY improbable - it shatters the suspension of disbelief (and it's not the only highly unlikely coincidence to be found in 'Destiny').

Finding someone similar any time soon is beyond ridiculous.

And about the borg - Q became interested in the federation because it was expanding; Q introduced the borg to his new acquaintances. Alternatively, the Hansens found the borg because they were out exploring.
Also, the dominion - the federation found the dominion, also, because it was expanding.

A natural response to 'Destiny' would be for a strong isolationist movement to emerge within the federation - Q became interested in humans because the federation was expanding rapidly, after all; the borg followed. Then the dominion. A strong case can be made that the federation's recent troubles were due to its 'expansionism', its 'explorations'.

That gets brought up in Losing the Peace and A Singular Destiny, where the massive rebuilding and relief efforts swamp the Federation, and the Governor of Alpha Centauri proposes a plebiscite to secede from the Federation. And then there's the secretive forces trying to widen the rifts already evident.

Which, realistically, should be merely the prologue, not the epilogue - we're talking about a massive civilizational trauma - the federation was literally DECIMATED and was utterly impotent in stopping it.

Another response would be for a large part of the federation to embrace transhumanism/genetic enginneering. Trying to become ready for 'what's out there'.

Part of me understands the aversion to genetic engineering that the Federation has...and then part of me doesn't. With all the other advances in science and medicine, all that really prevents genetic engineering from being accepted is the lingering stigma.

The eugenic wars are a pretty weak reason for this stigma to be so enduring.
Of course, the fundamental reason for this taboo is pragmatic - transhumanism would make star trek characteers a lot less relatable - and their make-up a lot more expensive.

 

[TerraUnam]

And the Caeliar were the walking dead in the novels. They lost their ability to procreate and chained themselves to their Omega Molecule Generator. Their civilization had nothing to do but die, which it was slowly doing by degrees.

ISTM to miss the most important part of Lost Souls, the fact that the solution to the Borg problem wasn't force of arms, it was compassion. That was the Federation's problem all along, they tried to do with guns what they should have done with their hearts.

As for Hernandez, she's a Christ-Like Character archetype if ever there was one. Literature abounds with them.

So it's a huge galaxy and its dangerous; this isn't the first disaster-from-space in Trek's history. Xindi probes, V'ger probe, Earth-Romulan War. Yet at the end of each one the solution is not to turn inwards but to reach out. Heck, the ENT books are focusing on the fact that Earth had just embroiled itself in its first war since WWIII and an interstellar one at that, and they're losing. But we know by the end that they don't become isolationist, they reach out and form the Federation, the key to Earth's peace and prosperity for centuries to come.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

TerraUnam

Most trek stories made a point in showing that moral values are effective, have practical value; 'Destiny' fails to do so - it shows that power is what matters; without it, all the morals in the universe are useless, won't help you.
The borg were superior to the federation despite having atrocious morals; the federation inferior to the borg despite having 'enlightened values'; and the Caeliar were better than the borg because they were more powerful:

In 'Lost souls' the federation could have had ALL the compassion in the universe and it wouldn't have made any difference. Its morality had no value whatsoever, helped in no way.
'Destiny' gave the borg the ability to effortessly crush the federation - despite the fact that the borg is the purest brand of 'evil' introduced in the trekverse and is facing the moral champion of the trekverse (the federation). But, apparently, 'morality' doesn't matter; only power.
The Caeliar could only save the 'mere mortals' because they had the power to do so; they were 'grown-ups' dealing with teenagers.


Apropos Caeliar being 'living dead':
The Q were not able to procreate either, until late Voy.
And yet, they existed for billions of years (far longer than humanity will probably exist). Not to mention they learned to 'procreate' in a few seconds, when it suited them. You would seriously call them 'living dead'?
The Caeliar are also immortal - and with their abilities, they would most likely have outlasted the human species. Plus, considering those same abilities, they could have transferred in organic bodies - or some other 'magic' - and procreated without any problems, if so they wanted. 'Living dead'? You overstate your case.

It was the federation - everyone in the alpha/beta quadrant - that were the 'living dead' in 'Destiny'. They were the ones saved from extinction by the caeliar.
They did not have the power to save themselves. In the end, they were not ready for what awaited in the depths of space; in the end, their morals made no difference.

 

[TerraUnam]

Then you've seriously missed the whole point of Hernandez' transformation. A Caeliar/human blend, apropos of a Christ-like figure, taking the best of both and redeeming both.

ProtoAvatar, to you it seems power is all that matters. I don't see the same thing in Destiny.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

TerraUnam

"ProtoAvatar, to you it seems power is all that matters."

Not quite. It is according to 'Destiny' that power is all that matters. It is the only thing that made any difference; NOT morals.

Hernandez? Hundreds of year ago, she was human; a 'child', too. But, by the time of 'Destiny', she was a Caeliar - a grown up, in a different league from the 24th century federation, from this 7 year old child. The disconnection between this 'divine being' and the 'mere mortals' was felt throughout the trilogy and was blindingly obvious at the end.
The 24th century federation played absolutely no part in its return from the grave. It was 'irrelevant', reduced to being an impotent spectator to the games of the gods.

Despite the obvious intent to make 'Destiny''s ending uplifting, I found it quite macabre - 63 BILLION DEAD, the federation - and the other kids - repeatedly reduced to impotence. But, of course, we're supposed to forget all this because we see some light shows, because Picard&co bitch about not being allowed to return to exploration (BTW, I find their priorities quite repugnant, considering the state the federation's in) and sallivate over a 200 year old ship.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Which, realistically, should be merely the prologue, not the epilogue - we're talking about a massive civilizational trauma - the federation was literally DECIMATED and was utterly impotent in stopping it.

Not really. That's why Losing the Peace works so well - because many parts of the Federation weren't decimated by the Borg, causing the conflict we see. Alpha Centauri and Cestus III weren't hit by the Borg, which is why they take on so many refugees, and why their respective Governors don't get how bad things really are, especially the governor of Alpha Centauri.

It'd sort of be like if the Governors of Maine and Massachusetts were complaining that the US isn't focusing on their needs and instead paying more attention to the Gulf States, only to go down there and realize just how devastated the area is

The eugenic wars are a pretty weak reason for this stigma to be so enduring.
Of course, the fundamental reason for this taboo is pragmatic - transhumanism would make star trek characteers a lot less relatable - and their make-up a lot more expensive.

Yes and no. The thought of messing around with a person's fundamental building blocks can make many people uncomfortable, especially because the risks are always there for causing great chaos and harm.

Apropos Caeliar being 'living dead':
The Q were not able to procreate either, until late Voy.
And yet, they existed for billions of years (far longer than humanity will probably exist). Not to mention they learned to 'procreate' in a few seconds, when it suited them. You would seriously call them 'living dead'?

The Q were far more advanced than the Caeliar, for one. And, two, they were always able to procreate - they just never did. It wasn't until the Q Civil War and when Qs started killing each other that procreation was thought of. When you become immortal, having kids wouldn't be something that immediately jumps into mind.

The Caeliar are also immortal - and with their abilities, they would most likely have outlasted the human species. Plus, considering those same abilities, they could have transferred in organic bodies - or some other 'magic' - and procreated without any problems, if so they wanted. 'Living dead'? You overstate your case.

I thought the Caeliar were sterile...

It was the federation - everyone in the alpha/beta quadrant - that were the 'living dead' in 'Destiny'. They were the ones saved from extinction by the caeliar.
They did not have the power to save themselves. In the end, they were not ready for what awaited in the depths of space; in the end, their morals made no difference.

How was the Federation "the living dead"?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Valeris

"Not really. That's why Losing the Peace works so well - because many parts of the Federation weren't decimated by the Borg, causing the conflict we see."
I was using the word 'decimated' literally - as in 1 in every 10 federation citizens died.
How many federation citizens do you think existed? In the alpha/beta quadrants, there lived, apparently, 2-3 trillions sentient beings. I estimate the federation numbered around 500 billion people (probably not that many). 63 billion IS 'decimated'.
Combine this with the utter helplessness of the federation - and you have the makings of a major trauma.

Consider 9/11 - this terrorist attack was insignificant by comparison to 'Destiny' on every level worth mentioning.
And yet, 9/11 traumatised, had a major impact on the american society (NOT JUST NEW YORK - NOT EVEN CLOSE), one that is still felt today on the entire world.
And the federation is supposed to get over 'Destiny' without being traumatised? People on Alpha Centauri or Earth are supposed to not be deeply shaken by what happened, just returning to their usual life like good little zombies? Highly artificial, unrealistic.


"Yes and no. The thought of messing around with a person's fundamental building blocks can make many people uncomfortable, especially because the risks are always there for causing great chaos and harm."
A nuclear weapon can cause great harm; on the other hand, a fission reactor can do a lot of good. Medicine can cause great harm or can save lives.

The people in the trekverse don't seem to have a problem with using things that can cause 'great harm' - insert treknology here.
They also seem to have no problem getting in the kill and be copied machine called tranporter.
Their reluctance to use genetech due to a war that happened 200+ years ago is not very convincing.


"The Q were far more advanced than the Caeliar, for one."
Actually, in 'Destiny' there are some comparisons between the Q and the Caeliar - and both species are put on roughly the same level.
If the Caeliar would have wanted to procreate, their 'magical' technology would have provided a way - and rather easily, I think.


"How was the Federation "the living dead"?"
By having its life expectancy reduced to a few weeks. This makes the federation 'a living dead'.
Unlike immortals who could live until all the stars die out - and just be getting started by that time.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

And the federation is supposed to get over 'Destiny' without being traumatised? People on Alpha Centauri or Earth are supposed to not be deeply shaken by what happened, just returning to their usual life like good little zombies? Highly artificial, unrealistic.

You're missing the point of what I said. My point wasn't that those people should move on or not be deeply shaken. My point was because they weren't attacked, they had no real knowledge of how serious the attack was. Watching something on the news or subspace is very different from having been there and barely escaped.

The whole point of the post-Destiny books is that people are traumatized, some more than others, and the lack of knowledge about how serious things are can cause serious problems.

A nuclear weapon can cause great harm; on the other hand, a fission reactor can do a lot of good. Medicine can cause great harm or can save lives.

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

The people in the trekverse don't seem to have a problem with using things that can cause 'great harm' - insert treknology here.
They also seem to have no problem getting in the kill and be copied machine called tranporter.

Wow. Just...wow.

Actually, in 'Destiny' there are some comparisons between the Q and the Caeliar - and both species are put on roughly the same level.
If the Caeliar would have wanted to procreate, their 'magical' technology would have provided a way - and rather easily, I think.

The Q are omnipotent, the Caeliar are just highly advanced.

"How was the Federation "the living dead"?"
By having its life expectancy reduced to a few weeks. This makes the federation 'a living dead'.
Unlike immortals who could live until all the stars die out - and just be getting started by that time.

No, that would make them "walking dead", not "living dead".

 

[Christopher]

Which, realistically, should be merely the prologue, not the epilogue - we're talking about a massive civilizational trauma - the federation was literally DECIMATED and was utterly impotent in stopping it.

Not really. That's why Losing the Peace works so well - because many parts of the Federation weren't decimated by the Borg, causing the conflict we see.

Well, "literally decimated" would mean that exactly ten percent of the Federation's population was killed. Which would mean that the other ninety percent was largely untouched. So it's not really a contradiction there, if you take "literally" literally. However, the death toll was nowhere near ten percent. Memory Beta gives a UFP population of 9.85 trillion sentients, ten percent of which would be 985 billion. The death toll in the Borg invasion was 63 billion total, including the Klingons, Romulans, and unaligned worlds, so the UFP toll was probably more like 45-50 billion, or around 0.5 percent. So that would not qualify as "literally decimated."

The eugenic wars are a pretty weak reason for this stigma to be so enduring.
Of course, the fundamental reason for this taboo is pragmatic - transhumanism would make star trek characteers a lot less relatable - and their make-up a lot more expensive.

Yes and no. The thought of messing around with a person's fundamental building blocks can make many people uncomfortable, especially because the risks are always there for causing great chaos and harm.

But you can say the same about any technological advance, including space travel, antimatter power, interspecies breeding, artificial intelligence, you name it. ST's position has always been that the potential benefits of a technology are worth pursuing despite the risks, and that humanity is capable of being responsible enough to develop it wisely. So it's a fundamental inconsistency for the Federation to take a paranoid, Luddite view of this particular technology.

I also don't agree that transhumanism would make characters less relatable. There are already plenty of transhuman characters in Trek -- Spock, Data, Deanna, Worf, Odo, Dax, Kes, Seven -- all sorts of characters who have superhuman abilities or attributes. Not to mention comic-book superheroes, who are almost all transhuman or nonhuman yet still relatable. Then there's something like Andromeda, where all the human characters except one (Harper) were genetically enhanced, and even Harper had a built-in data port that made him a cyborg. So the whole cast was transhuman, and it didn't break the makeup budget (and believe me, that show had a tiny budget).

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Valeris

"My point wasn't that those people should move on or not be deeply shaken. My point was because they weren't attacked, they had no real knowledge of how serious the attack was"
In other words, 'Losing the peace' and 'A singular destiny' should be only the prologue - the citizens of the federation beginning to realise the true scale of the destruction, how close they came to death.

"Wow. Just...wow."
If this refers to the transporter being a kill and copy machine - well, this is how the tech is consistently described.
As for treknology - a few foton torpedos are ideal for extinguishing all life on a planet, easily.
So - what exactly is your point?

In any case, the taboo regarding genetic engineering is still not adequately explained by the eugenic wars. As I said - this taboo exists due to real-world reasons and...well, it's just a poetic license the scenarists took - and it should be taken as such.

"The Q are omnipotent, the Caeliar are just highly advanced."
According to VOY: Death wish, the Q are NOT omnipotent, just 'highly advanced'. According to 'Destiny', the Q and the Caeliar are on roughly the same level, Valeris.

"No, that would make them "walking dead", not "living dead".
If you prefere.
The Caeliar are none of the above.


Christopher

"Memory Beta gives a UFP population of 9.85 trillion sentients, ten percent of which would be 985 billion."
'Destiny' gave the combined population of both alpha and beta quadrants as a few trillions.
9.85 trillions for the federation alone is SUBSTANTIALLY over this number - and it directly contradicts 'First Contact' - according to Picard, the federation has only 150 densely inhabited planets. These are some REALLY overcrowded planets.
Or did the tribbles gain membersip and are now counted as federation citizens?

So - what are the canon - or lit - sources for this ridiculous '9.85 trillions' number?


"I also don't agree that transhumanism would make characters less relatable."
Perhaps you are right.
However, until now, transhumanism was given a wide berth by star trek. It remains to be seen whether this will change.

 

[JD]

Wow, this all seems incredibly familiar.

 

[Dayton Ward]

All of this has happened before; all of it will happen again.

So say we all.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^There are 150 member worlds, but each member world has colonies. (I believe the number of colonies is stated at "over 1000").

If you assume each member world has a comparable population to Earth (roughly 6 billion), 6 billion times 150=900 billion. If you assume each colony of the member worlds has, at this point, also reached a comparable population, that's 6 billion times 1000, which is 6 trillion. Add the two together, and you get 6 trillion, 900 billion.

If you look at Articles of the Federation, 5 more members have joined since First Contact, which adds another 30 billion (keeping our assumptions the same) in just member worlds alone. If each of these 5 members have 10 colony worlds, with similar populations, that adds another 300,000,000,000 to the population, which bumps the population up to 7 trillion, 230 billion.

Accounting for variables in population (with advances in technology leading to planets better able to support more than 6 billion individuals, and factoring in the various space stations and starships that have people living) it's not too big of a stretch to imagine that the Federation can reach 9.85 trillion beings.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Valeris

Deneva was considered one of the most developed 'colony' worlds - in fact, it wasn't considered a 'colony' at all anymore, BUT A MEMBER WORLD (despite being inhabited by humans) - it was represented in the federation council and all. Its population was about 100 million - NOT 6 BILLION.

The typical colony world numbered a few tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people. Only the largest colonies numbered in the millions - watch the series for repeated confirmation.


Now - a homeworld for a member species would number on average ~4 billion:
Once again, I'm being REALLY generous, what with horta and all. Or with Deneva, which was part of those ~150 worlds represented in the federation council and had "only" 100 million living on it.
150 worlds would make 600 billion people.

Each member species could have a few tens of colonies - only a few numbering in the millions. Let's say 2 billion living off-world:
Again, extremely generous numbers, considering the size of the colonies in televised trek and Star Trek XI with the vulcans 'a dying species'.
That would be another 300 billion.

In total - and rounding the numbers way up - we have 900 billion citizens. Not even close to the ridiculous number of 9.85 trillions.

As I see, not even your unrealistic numbers managed to reach this hugely inflated number. Tell me, Valeris, when and where have you heard of a colony world - as in NOT represented in the federation council - being inhabited by 6 billion people in trek?

Wow, this all seems incredibly familiar.

Perhaps you traveled back in time and have yet to realise it, JD.

 

[Christopher]

Actually Earth's current population is over 6.8 billion. It's projected to reach 7 billion within the next year or two. The growth seems to be slowing, but it's still likely we'll pass 10 billion before the end of the century.

Anyway, I never attempted to claim Memory Beta's 9.85 trillion figure as gospel; I don't even know where it comes from. It was just the only UFP population figure I could find, and I mentioned it only for the sake of discussion.

If we set the figure of UFP dead at 50 billion, then in order for that to be "literally decimated," the UFP's population would have to be only 500 billion. If we assume c. 150 member worlds with populations averaging, say, 5 billion, that would be 750 billion right there; add in 1000 worlds with populations averaging, say, 50 million (assuming Deneva is toward the upper end of the curve), and it goes to 800 billion. However, if the average member world had a population of 3 billion, then you'd get a total population of 500 billion and it would be valid to say the UFP population was "literally decimated."