The Bridge

[Timo]

The figures change whenever we see them. I take a gamest view. I look at the size of the patrol area, the speed of the ships and calculate the number you need to do a decent job.

But that's just it - in Star Trek, Starfleet never does a decent job.

They're indecently absent when space monsters devour colonies, or when space diseases or madmen kill everybody there. They lose their own for months at an end. They defend borders that are 8,000 ly between the farthest points, yet enemies often sneak all the way to Earth. And after a century of exploration, they haven't gotten as far as Pollux...

So let's calculate the number needed. And then divide it by fifty.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tim Thomason]

STPicard seems to take a libertarian view of the galactic state, with Starfleet barely a blip on the radar of this human freight crew ferrying a forgotten legend on a fetch quest, even visiting what is supposedly a Federation world that has its own economy and a huge criminal underbelly with a lovely-looking organ trafficker.

Lower Decks shows us the less heroic of hero ships still in Starfleet, who are constantly outmatched and nearly destroyed in every episode (including the season finale, where an actual hero ship is called upon to save the day).

Discovery confirmed the existence of a non-Starfleet Vulcan Expeditionary Force, which matches indications in TOS and TNG that Vulcan (a Federation founder) tends to take defense in its own hands and possibly even exploration as well. Starfleet is this side thing that they kind of ridicule Spock (and Michael) over.

Starfleet is pretty much still the Earth-based organization it was in Enterprise (and this would make sense of all the "Earth ship" references in TOS), while trying to paint itself with a bigger mandate than is actually possible.

 

[dupersuper]

a Federation world that has its own economy and a huge criminal underbelly with a lovely-looking organ trafficker.

?????????????????

 

[Tim Thomason]

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That's exactly what I thought when watching the episode. But, c'est la vie. It just reconceptualizes Federation border worlds but I guess isn't that far removed from concepts related to the Maquis.

 

[The Wormhole]

Eddington did compare the Federation to the Borg. Now you're saying there's shades of the Vidians there as well?

 

[Shawnster]

I have not done this for TOS, but I did for TNG and it was a fleet of 40,000 front line ships, and twice as many support ships. A Starfleet of 80,000,000. Of that maybe 50,000 are Captains in some role, as high as 100,000.

But that's just it - in Star Trek, Starfleet never does a decent job.

So let's calculate the number needed. And then divide it by fifty.

Timo Saloniemi

800 front line ships
1600 support ships
1.6 million personnel
2000 capitans

That actually sounds quite reasonable based on onscreen evidence.

 

[dupersuper]

That's exactly what I thought when watching the episode. But, c'est la vie. It just reconceptualizes Federation border worlds but I guess isn't that far removed from concepts related to the Maquis.

I meant I never got the impression that it was a Federation world.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I meant I never got the impression that it was a Federation world.

That's the way Chabon described it in his notes. Whether that holds true to the reality of it all is up for you to decide. I said "supposedly a Federation world" to acknowledge that only the showrunner, and not the show itself, told us all about Freecloud's status within the Federation.

 

[Timo]

In general, we have every reason to think the Federation is a collection of quite exotic places. TOS already gives us Ardana with its strict caste division amounting to slavery, and Vulcan with its duels to death and telepathically forced marriages, and never mind those colonies that refuse to talk to anybody for years at an end. It's an inclusive rather than exclusive club, and puts up with a lot from its members.

Freecloud nevertheless is noted specifically for standing out, in PIC already, and never mind the backstage backstory. Those deposed warlords plotting for revenge don't have a wide range of sleazy locations to choose from, so you find 'em all on Freecloud instead...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That's the way Chabon described it in his notes. Whether that holds true to the reality of it all is up for you to decide. I said "supposedly a Federation world" to acknowledge that only the showrunner, and not the show itself, told us all about Freecloud's status within the Federation.

Freecloud is one of the most NON-Federation-ish worlds I've ever seen. If it was actually a member, I would be hella surprised. It struck me as a world which would most likely prefer to stay far away from Federation jurisdiction.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but the area of space in which Freecloud is located, is not in fact IN Federation territory, amirite?

 

[Boris Skrbic]

TOS is different from TNG, where suspicious practices would be investigated and the Federation candidate in question rejected in Picard’s official report. The 2260s were a uniquely divisive time for the union, what with the increased emphasis on Earth ships and United Earth Space Probe agency (UESPA) following a century of the Federation and Starfleet (which came to be spelled Star Fleet for a while!). T’Pau obviously used that to away with murder, but I’m sure those rituals were softened soon after.

 

[Timo]

TOS didn't describe a process of joining; Ardana and Vulcan were already members, and thus could wipe their feet on Kirk.

That Picard gets to make it more difficult for Agnosia to join doesn't mean the Federation would be any different a century on. As far as we can tell, nothing has changed on Vulcan, and the secrets of the 2260s are still secrets in the 2360s. We don't revisit Ardana, but there was no change forthcoming as the TOS episode concluded, so we basically have to wonder whether the need for zenite has gone away with industrial replication or not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[NCC-73515]

It makes sense that growth was more of a priority in the beginning, and they only got more careful when issues came up

 

[Boris Skrbic]

TOS did show a bit of the Coridan admission process and the way it could become an openly politicized issue, as seen in Gav’s and Sarek’s argument, not just a matter of a prospective candidate meeting certain ideals. Still, can we imagine something like that on TNG? Illegal Tellarite mining operations would be a scandal to be uncovered in the latter, murkier seasons of TNG, not just common backroom knowledge.

 

[Shawnster]

TOS didn't describe a process of joining; Ardana and Vulcan were already members, and thus could wipe their feet on Kirk.

Ardana was not a Federation member

PLASUS [on monitor]: And I forbid it. Your Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments. This communication has ended.

PLASUS: We will get it for you, and in our own way. Remove the prisoner to confinement quarters. You will return to your ship at once or I shall contact your Starfleet command myself and report your interference with this planet's government.

 

[Timo]

But it was. Which is exactly why Kirk couldn't interfere: Starfleet isn't allowed to pester the local governments of UFP members. Kirk can only bully colonies, it seems...

Plasus: "I assure you, gentlemen, you will get what you came for."
Kirk: "I hope so. Ardana is a member of the Federation, and it is your council's responsibility that nothing interferes with its obligation to another member of the Federation."

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

Ardana was not a Federation member

PLASUS [on monitor]: And I forbid it. Your Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments. This communication has ended.

PLASUS: We will get it for you, and in our own way. Remove the prisoner to confinement quarters. You will return to your ship at once or I shall contact your Starfleet command myself and report your interference with this planet's government.

Uh...

KIRK: I must concern myself with it if it should interfere with the delivery of zenite to Merak Two.
SPOCK: Mister Advisor, the plant life is the source of oxygen on that planet. Obviously, if all plant life is destroyed, the humanoid life will follow.
PLASUS: I assure you, gentlemen, you will get what you came for.
KIRK: I hope so. Ardana is a member of the Federation, and it is your council's responsibility that nothing interferes with its obligation to another member of the Federation.
PLASUS: Of course, and we accept the responsibility.

 

[Shawnster]

Wow, I guess I can't out Timo Timo

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm just going to hazard a guess, then, that the Federation was unaware of the Stratos/Troglyte divide on the planet, since caste-based discrimination is forbidden under Federation law.

 

[Nyotarules]

I'm just going to hazard a guess, then, that the Federation was unaware of the Stratos/Troglyte divide on the planet, since caste-based discrimination is forbidden under Federation law.

Maybe the UFP looked the other way for the zenith.