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The Borg - their Status

SWHouston

Commander
Red Shirt
I've just been wondering what happened to these guys !
From what I remember...

Their Problems:
Spaceborn Virus, via Icheb. Neonates on Cube weren't affected, no telling if the Borg’s immunity worked, or if in any way, this Virus was transmitted to other Cubes ?
Hugh’s Psychological Impact: Took out a few of them, but, what/how many other did it effect ?
Janeway’s Destruction of the Nexus: How many Ships were destroyed, how many left, are the Transwarp Conduits still “marginally” operative, those or Nexus being rebuilt ?
Wolf 359, Ok, they got destroyed, but, is the ingenuity of their Escape Pod transferring, specific to a Queen as in 2063, or ?
Other, ?

Am I asking for speculation here, or us there some cannon to answer these questions ?
 
The superb Destiny trilogy of novels (non-canon, I know, yet don't care) features the inception, in something like 4500 BCE and the ending, in 2381 of the Borg. It's a great epic read. They kill around 30 billion people after deciding humanity (and the alpha quadrant in general) isn't worth the trouble and should be exterminated and not assimilated.
 
Well, he did ask for a "cannon" explanation:)

"Endgame" gives the impresssion that all Borg everywhere were destroyed by Future-Janeway. Whether you believe that or not is up to you.
 
I never got the impression "all Borg, everywhere" were destroyed in Endgame. I thought it no more than a temporary setback for them. The current queen died, and their ships in this part of the galaxy were slowed to 'normal' warp speeds. That's all.

Besides, killing all Borg, everywhere would be the genocide of what are basically trillions of slaves, and probably the worst atrocity in the history of Star Trek. Janeway knows that the Borg can be real people again. She wouldn't kill them all.
 
Thank both of you for your very informative replies !

KD,
I'll try to find time to read that, thanks.

Dukhat,
I feel somewhat the same about the "impression" issue, it just doesn't set that ALL were destroyed. Those Conduits were extremely complex, other Ships could/must have been out somewhere Assimilating. They had thousands of Ships, hundred of thousands of Drones....

Got to be something left somewhere !
 
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I hate to double clutch a Thread but....

In looking around for this information, Wolf 359 came up.
Ok, I knew about 40 ships were destroyed, but, when I looked at...
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Wolf_359
it said that there were 11,000 deaths...whose ?
There couldn't possibly have been that many Crew-members on 40 Fed Ships, they must be talking about the Borg... right ?
 
it said that there were 11,000 deaths...whose ?
There couldn't possibly have been that many Crew-members on 40 Fed Ships, they must be talking about the Borg... right ?

Why not? 11,000 people divided by 40 starships is only 275 crewmembers per ship (they probably weren't divided exactly that way, but it doesn't matter). That's very reasonable for the amount of Starfleet dead.
 
Besides, killing all Borg, everywhere would be the genocide of what are basically trillions of slaves, and probably the worst atrocity in the history of Star Trek. Janeway knows that the Borg can be real people again. She wouldn't kill them all.



Like that would bother Janeway.
 
While I wish that the Destiny novels were the official coda for the Borg, setting them side, it may be that after "Endgame," the Borg eventually lost their transwarp corridors that allowed them access between the Delta and Alpha Quadrants. I think the Borg transwarp network consists of many naturally occurring conduits that come and go over time. They may only be slightly more stable than natural wormholes in that they can be used for awhile, but then they do eventually fade away and access to certain parts of the Galaxy may be unavailable for years, decades, or even centuries...
 
Spaceborn Virus, via Icheb. Neonates on Cube weren't affected, no telling if the Borg’s immunity worked, or if in any way, this Virus was transmitted to other Cubes?

The Icheb story arc would seem to suggest that such viral attacks are a known threat to the Borg, and that they have adapted to it by adopting this isolation protocol: an infested Borg unit (typically a ship) is ordered to self-destruct, and if that fails, destroyed - and if that fails, not communicated with.

We see in several other episodes that the Collective ruthlessly destroys parts of itself to stop infections. And it's rather nicely buffered for such a thing, given how many trillions of Drones there are. So I'd assume all these virus attacks are stopped eventually, although not always at the first ship infected.

Hugh’s Psychological Impact: Took out a few of them, but, what/how many other did it effect ?

Might also be that the isolation protocols treated Hugh's effects as a viral attack and isolated his ship (or, it seems, the small ship that came to recover Hugh, and then some larger mothership, to explain the large numbers of Drones affected and later adopted by Lore).

Janeway’s Destruction of the Nexus: How many Ships were destroyed, how many left, are the Transwarp Conduits still “marginally” operative, those or Nexus being rebuilt?

It seems there were at least six of those hub things (that Seven knew about), and Janeway was only shown destroying one, plus parts of a major Borg habitat. So again there'd seem to be robustness in the system, enough to allow the Collective to adapt.

The loss of that one particular hub didn't seem to collapse the conduit that took Janeway to Earth in the belly of that Borg Sphere. At least not immediately, that is. We might speculate that the transwarp conduits are short-lived, and that they need to be renewed with transwarp coils or then kept more permanently open with those nodes - but we also know new conduits can be created with the help of a transwarp coil, after which even coil-less ships can utilize them for a while. So in no case would the Borg be completely deprived of their fast lanes. Although it does seem that different conduits allow for different speeds, and that the ones created by the hubs are amongst the very fastest.

Wolf 359, Ok, they got destroyed, but, is the ingenuity of their Escape Pod transferring, specific to a Queen as in 2063, or ?

Odds are that the Cube that slaughtered the fleet at Wolf 359 initiated the conversion of at least a few of those wrecks (or possible intact-captured ships) into new Borg vessels, ENT "Regeneration" style. All sorts of Wolf 359 captives could have left the original Cube at that point aboard those new ships, then. It's possible the Queen physically left at that point, too; but it's also possible that the Queen physically stayed aboard the Cube all the way to Earth, and then was blown up there.

But since the Queen's body seems to be manufactured of standard parts anyway (alternating between the likenesses of Susanna Thompson and Alice Krige), it seems natural to assume that the loss of one body would be no big loss to the Queen. For all we know, she inhabits hundreds or millions of bodies simultaneously anyway, in various different locations across the Collective's realm, and either doesn't much mind losing one copy, or then can withdraw her essence from the body at the moment of its death and move along the aphysical Collective to a safer physical location. Or perhaps stay aphysical for a while, for that matter.


The Species 8472 attack appeared to hurt the Collective physically, although it never seemed to be a threat to the aphysical aspects of being Borg. Perhaps Borg behavior was at least temporarily affected by the physical damage - possibly triggering a re-escalation program that involved e.g. the mass assimilations of cultures in "Hope and Fear" and "Dark Frontier".

Why not? 11,000 people divided by 40 starships is only 275 crewmembers per ship (they probably weren't divided exactly that way, but it doesn't matter). That's very reasonable for the amount of Starfleet dead.

One wonders how many of those 11,000 were really killed in the battle, and how many lost to assimilation...

Also, one wonders how many ships were "really" lost. Does the 39 refer to ships whose total destruction was documented, or to ships that weren't around as the battle ended, having been assimilated? Or did Starfleet perhaps lose 45 ships but managed to rebuild six of them (considering how most of the wrecks we saw were nearly intact physically, and how the Ahwahnee was later reported as being active again in "Redemption")?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Also, one wonders how many ships were "really" lost. Does the 39 refer to ships whose total destruction was documented, or to ships that weren't around as the battle ended, having been assimilated? Or did Starfleet perhaps lose 45 ships but managed to rebuild six of them (considering how most of the wrecks we saw were nearly intact physically, and how the Ahwahnee was later reported as being active again in "Redemption")?Timo Saloniemi

Here's how I rationalize it. Hanson said that 40 ships were part of the taskforce, and that Admiral Satie said that 39 ships were destroyed.

I'm taking Satie's number at face value, since she wouldn't have used an odd number like "39" if that weren't exactly how many ships were destroyed. Now, Hanson could have easily meant "43" ships when he said 40, but for argument's sake I'm also taking his statement at face value.

So that leaves one intact ship that escaped. And it had to have done two things, based on BoBW:

1. It had to have escaped before the Ent-D got there, so it couldn't have been the Ahwahnee, and

2. It had to have collected all the escape pods from other ships before escaping, including Sisko's, since there were no life readings when the Ent-D arrived.

Now, the Ahwahnee was most likely rebuilt (lower registry number notwithstanding), but my money is on the Endeavor being the ship that escaped based on Janeway's comment about it having faced the Borg and survived. (I know she wasn't specifically referring to Wolf 359, but c'mon, what ship ever faced the Borg and survived apart from the Enterprise?)
 
Dozens, no doubt. We later hear of the Excalibur having an encounter (VOY "Survival Instinct"), for example. And that couldn't have been Wolf 359 because the Excalibur was seen intact in the later "Redemption". Unless she, too, were rebuilt like the Ahwahnee... But even that'd make her another example of a ship that "survived", depriving the Endeavour of the uniqueness of that honor.

The E-D had numerous Borg encounters that had nothing to do with Wolf 359. Why wouldn't other Starfleet ships have those? And why would the skipper of the Endeavour be a quotable expert on the Borg if his only merit was an "I was at Wolf 359" T-shirt? Picard had multiple encounters; Captain Amasov probably had, too.

There are a couple of tech reasons for why I dislike having the Endeavour as a Wolf 359 survivor (let alone the sole such). In backstage material at least, she's a Nebula class giant. We already saw one of those among the wreckage, badly gutted (probably too badly for a rebuild - in contrast, the Ahwahnee was never seen up close and might not have been damaged much). Now, there are two things wrong about having a Nebula flee the scene. One is that such a big battlewagon should have stayed and fought - or if she were forced to flee, she should have made an effort to communicate with Starfleet, something a smaller and weaker survivor vessel might choose not to do out of fear of being intercepted. The other is that the Borg wouldn't have let her get away...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Ah, right. I forgot about the Excalibur. Of course, one can also argue that the Excalibur was at Wolf 359 as well, depending on the angle of the model shown in "Emissary" (it was labeled as both the Yamaguchi and the Excalibur), which would make the Excalibur the ship that escaped.
 
Let's not forget about the Borg civil war. ("Unimatrix Zero") It could be that the Borg are threatened from within as well.
 
GOOD point Wingsley !!

I had forgotten about that one...
7/9's appearance in the Uni Zero. No telling how many of those Drones got back to their Cubes, and are now messing with things !
 
I would think that breaking the Borg collective up in a civil war would either reduce their threat in a big way, or make them much worse in a big way. It would be interesting to show both, maybe showing Federation starships encountering "friendly" Borg, and also finding "Descent"-style hostile Borg. It might also be interesting if there were "still collectivized" Borg, and all three factions were fighting each other.
 
The borg had MILLIONS OF CUBES as of Voy:Scorpion. With the exception of Species 8472 and, perhaps, Endgame, they barely felt the losses suffered in their other encounters with Starfleet.
As for Endgame, it cut the borg's access to the alpha/beta quadrants and destroyed a lot of borg assets - but I doubt it got even close to destroying all borg.
 
Interesting subjects Wingsley...then...

We have the remainder of the DQuad (bad guys)..

Members of Uni Zero (not unified) probably more interested in just getting back (to their indivudual) homes somehow...

Then we do have "Friendly Borg", the Hugh Group, they (save for one possibly) seem to be happy on their Planet.

Also, i remember at least one Borg Cube, which was taken over by it's Klingon Members. It was Pro Starfleet, but don't recall if they exist now.
 
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From what I understand, whatever Future Janeway introduced to the Collective, pretty much crippled them, maybe not forever but it likely affected the entire collective since the Queen was in contact with all of them

As for the Transwarp Network, as far as we know it could be that the Borg only controlled one, as they could all be naturally occuring, this one in the Delta Quadrant was controlled by the Borg, however they were aware of all of them, just not the locations (otherwise they would have assimilated the entire galaxy a long time ago)

So as to what happened to the Borg, well if we take STO as canon, then they re-appeared sometime between 2378 and 2400
 
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