• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The Book of Eli and the Black Male Hero

Unless of course you make that black male largely safe, which to some extent are the hero roles that Denzel and especially Will Smith play.

What does that mean? "Make that black make largely safe"? I don't know what you mean by that, so I can't comment about it.

There are black male heroes in literature, in comics, but these film adaptations/projects aren't just being made in large numbers. And in the comics, these characters aren't getting consistent support. Though I give DC and particularly Marvel credit for at least making more of an attempt recently. There are more blacks on teams, but a lot of times they play supporting roles and aren't the POV characters or have major storylines or character development. Unfortunately, only one black character to my knowledge headlines a Marvel book, Black Panther. War Machine was recently cancelled and Dr. Voodoo is on the way out. As for DC, there's Azrael and the Vertigo Unknown Soldier series. That's really paltry considering the amount of comics out there, particularly put out by the major companies.

Isn't Green Lantern black? Or is he just one of smaller Green Lantern's who doesn't have his own book? I don't read mainstream DC (stick with Vertigo) so I only know GL from the JLA cartoons.
 
Black heroes/protagonists are nowhere near as unusual as the OP implies. Many of the black actors such as Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, and others are also frequently cast in non-race-cast roles, and it is getting more and more common.

Sure there has been a problem in the past, but the situation is rapidly improving, and I think Hollywood should be congratulated for getting this far. And it will get even better.
 
Unless of course you make that black male largely safe, which to some extent are the hero roles that Denzel and especially Will Smith play.

What does that mean? "Make that black make largely safe"? I don't know what you mean by that, so I can't comment about it.

There are black male heroes in literature, in comics, but these film adaptations/projects aren't just being made in large numbers. And in the comics, these characters aren't getting consistent support. Though I give DC and particularly Marvel credit for at least making more of an attempt recently. There are more blacks on teams, but a lot of times they play supporting roles and aren't the POV characters or have major storylines or character development. Unfortunately, only one black character to my knowledge headlines a Marvel book, Black Panther. War Machine was recently cancelled and Dr. Voodoo is on the way out. As for DC, there's Azrael and the Vertigo Unknown Soldier series. That's really paltry considering the amount of comics out there, particularly put out by the major companies.

Isn't Green Lantern black? Or is he just one of smaller Green Lantern's who doesn't have his own book? I don't read mainstream DC (stick with Vertigo) so I only know GL from the JLA cartoons.
Hal Jordan, who stars in the Green Lantern title is white. John Stewart, who is featured in the Green Lantern Corps title, is black. Vixen had a mini-series recently. As has Black Lightning. There's also a Milestone special coming out. So, they are trying. The market will decide what has staying power.
 
Yknow what Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Lawrence Fishburne, Morgan Freeman, Dennis Haysbert, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods and Barack Obama have in common?

They would have become successful even if they hadn't been black. They are uniquely talented individuals whose race doesn't matter a damn because their innate talent so completely eclipses the detail of their skin color.

That's why talking about them in the context of race is nonsensical. Why don't we all talk about Martin Scorsese, Donald Trump, Meryl Streep, Bill Gates, Hillary Clinton, J.J. Abrams and Robert Downey Jr. being successful just because they are white?
 
What I mean by safe is that Will Smith and Denzel, etc. usually play black male heroes that don't have sex and don't provide much of a threat to the prevailing social order or white male Alpha status. Rarely are they rebels, they are usually cogs in the machine. The heroes/protagonists they play often are restricted in ways that heroes played by white males are not, particularly when it comes to sexual conquest. I think black sexuality is still something that is uncomfortable for a lot of non-black audiences to see.

About the comics, I made a distinction between headliners and those who are just in books. John Stewart, the black Green Lantern, currently is not a headliner, though he is featured in the Hal Jordan Green Lantern/GLC books. Though I'm a little disappointed that Geoff Johns' wonderful character work hasn't been used for Stewart. As mentioned by myself and others, blacks also feature prominently on some of the DC teams: Cyborg (formerly of the Titans) and Vixen on the Justice League, and Static on Teen Titans. Mr. Terrific in the JSA and Black Lightning in the Outsiders, Amanda Waller in Suicide Squad, etc. DC has also been doing miniseries for some of their black heroes, Vixen, Cyborg, and Black Lightning last year. There had been plans to bring back the Milestone characters but DC chose not to, except for Static, and a Milestone Forever event that's supposed to wrap up the Milestone storylines. So, for DC there are two black headliners, Azrael and Unknown Soldier. Unfortunately Firestorm and Blue Beetle (a Latino) solo series were cancelled within the last couple years.

For Marvel, there are two black headliners, Black Panther and Dr. Voodoo (whose book will be cancelled with issue #5). Similar to DC, there are some black characters who feature prominently on the Marvel teams like Luke Cage in the Avengers, or are valued sidekicks like Falcon in the Captain America books. Though overall I think Marvel has attempted to do more with its black characters and attempted to give them solo titles more. Off the top of my head, I can think of Blade, War Machine, New Warriors (leader Night Thrasher) were all recent cancelled series of the last two or three years with black male leads. There's also been a Storm miniseries, Luke Cage: Noir, and the Blue Marvel. Bishop might have had a mini too. And Marvel produced The Truth, one of the best Captain America stories, one of the best comic book superhero stories about race I've ever read. Though I'm disappointed in Marvel's lack of promotion of the crossover DoomWar event that's about to break out in the pages of Black Panther that would include Dr. Doom, FF, Wolverine, and Dead Pool. Even when they give BP an A-List event, Marvel shoots itself in the foot by not promoting it.

I don't think its a simple issue of the market determining if black comic heroes are successful without looking at that market and the overall disinterest that the largely white, male comic book reading audience has displayed for black headline characters. Part of it is probably the talent/lack of on the books, but that can't be the sole reason, not after decades. Also, you have to factor in longtime readership and loyalty. Some people only read what they grew up reading, and if they grew up in a time when almost all the comic characters were white, that's what they stick with. Many probably don't even fathom how lily white those books are, or remain. It's not an issue for them. Perhaps because their social interactions remain largely white and it might be a reflection of their reality. But ultimately, I think its a white/non-black inability to identify with blacks, for some whites or others to maybe feel that can't understand or don't want to understand, or can't empathize with a black character so they don't pick up the book. The power fantasy element might also come into play. Some people might live vicariously through comic book characters, they might aspire to be like those characters, and I don't think too many people, white or black for that matter, really want to be black. They might want to 'act' black or ape the 'black aesthetic', but to really be black, is another matter.
 
What I mean by safe is that Will Smith and Denzel, etc. usually play black male heroes that don't have sex and don't provide much of a threat to the prevailing social order or white male Alpha status. Rarely are they rebels, they are usually cogs in the machine. The heroes/protagonists they play often are restricted in ways that heroes played by white males are not, particularly when it comes to sexual conquest. I think black sexuality is still something that is uncomfortable for a lot of non-black audiences to see.

Ah, I get your meaning now. I can't comment on it though, because the more I think about it, the sexual stuff of any "hero" story doesn't stand out too much for me.

I'm a huge fan of Denzel from years ago in a lot of Spike Lee's movies, and since Spike isn't "typical Hollywood" I don't think I can could cite his work in this discussion.
 
I think the Mosaic series starring John Stewart was the best GL book I've ever read. I forget why it was canceled. Either poor sales or some silly change in direction for Green Lantern. I'm not sure comics fans care about the color of a hero's skin, but they do get attached to characters. They want a certain Flash, GL or Captain America and won't support an alternate version. The older characters have also built up a fanbase so it hard to build that up for a new character. Especially with multiple books starring Wolverine, the X-Men, Batman and others draining a reader's funds.
 
Yknow what Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Lawrence Fishburne, Morgan Freeman, Dennis Haysbert, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods and Barack Obama have in common?

They would have become successful even if they hadn't been black. They are uniquely talented individuals whose race doesn't matter a damn because their innate talent so completely eclipses the detail of their skin color.

That's why talking about them in the context of race is nonsensical. Why don't we all talk about Martin Scorsese, Donald Trump, Meryl Streep, Bill Gates, Hillary Clinton, J.J. Abrams and Robert Downey Jr. being successful just because they are white?

'cos Trump is an arsehole ? :lol:

Otherwise, you're spot on. I wish people would stop trying to make me think of the likes of Will Smith and Denzel Washington as "black actors". They're actors, great ones, who I enjoy watching. Haysbert too. I don't know why I have to put them in a separate category to the actors of other races I enjoy watching.
 
I'm more curious why there aren't more black VILLAINS in TV/film. Seriously, the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Kingpin from Daredevil (originally a white character but I think Michael Clarke Duncan nailed it), Jubal Early from Firefly (ironically, the name of a real Confederate general), "The Operative" from Serenity and Avery Brooks' character in The Big Hit - all of whom did an AWESOME job (IMHO) without going over the top and into stereotype mode.

What? Black people can't play bad guys now? Or does that play into some kind of perceived "negative stereotype?" Personally I think it's racist to assume that an African-American (or African-anything for that matter) can't play a good foil to a hero. Kind-of akin to those silly Brinks Security commercials where ALL the people breaking into houses are evil sneering white guys - like they wouldn't dare show a member of any minority group breaking into a house owned by a helpless white single mom and her kid. Some kind of double-standard going on here. Sorry for bringing this post to the brink of Neutral Zone, but common, dammit! Enough with the PC crap, already!! :scream:
 
The only thing I didn't go for in MCD's Kingpin is that part of the Kingpin is, if you did not know his strength, you would at first seriously underestimate him. In the case of Michael Clarke Duncan, no one with the slightest sense of self-preservation is going to do that. To be fair, he said he did try and gain weight for the role. When they did that MTV Movie-based Spider-Man cartoon, he voiced an animated Fisk who notably looked more like the comic book weight.
 
Denzel's character in Training Day was pretty bad. Who can forget Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man? Was Sam Jackson playing a bad guy in Pulp Fiction or was he a guy who did bad things? The Nigerians in District 9 were not very nice.
 
I would like to see more black heroes and villains. For villains, not the stereotypical thugs, pimps, pushers, or witchdoctors but villains along the lines of Lex Luthor or Dr. Doom. Villains that have national or global ambitions and the intelligence and means to carry them out. Often the villains are more interesting and more important than the hero. I think there has been a tendency to make black characters, particularly heroes, too much like statues, perhaps out of an obstensible fear of offending some blacks, but underneath I think it goes back to a lack of understanding of black people, or of seeing black people as people with a range of interests, personalities, and outlooks, etc.

Many of the black heroes usually have black opponents, but I can't think of too many major white heroes with black villains. Off the top of my head, there's Bishop and Apocalypse (though both their racial origins might be debatable) for the X-Men, Tombstone (an albino black man), Menace, Prowler, and Calypso (witchdoctor type) for Spider-Man, Barrucuda (something of a black buck, thug stereotype) for Punisher, Shadow Thief for Hawkman, Peek-A-Boo for Flash, Killer Croc for Batman (though his racial identity is obscured by his reptilian appearance), and Thunderball for Thor, and Black Manta for Aquaman.

With the possible exceptions of Apocalypse, Bishop, Tombstone, Killer Croc, and Black Manta, this is not necessarily an illustrious list.

Here is the wikipedia page for black supervillains:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_black_supervillains
 
Many of the black heroes usually have black opponents, but I can't think of too many major white heroes with black villains.

Good point too! The only film pairing I can think of like that was Bruce Willis/Samuel Jackson in "Unbreakable". Jackson can also be a fantastic bad guy, along with Lawrence Fishburne. But yeah, not many at all.

Denzel's character in Training Day was pretty bad. Who can forget Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man? Was Sam Jackson playing a bad guy in Pulp Fiction or was he a guy who did bad things? The Nigerians in District 9 were not very nice.

OOh! Forgot about those! Was trying to remember if Washington and Snypes ever did bad guy-type characters and you answered that, thank you! D9, however, did go a bit into the thug stereotype, as they weren't cast as the primary adversary. Possibly an artifact of that film being a South African production.

The Daredevil film counts as one of these. I thought a black Kingpin was a neat change.

Agreed. I found him to be well-cast for that role.

I also just remembered a couple others - Eamonn Walker who played Andre Baptiste in Lord of War (awesome job on that one) and, though I haven't seen it, Forest Whitaker as Idi Amin. True, both based on real-life bad guys bordering on "thug" status, but still a couple of notable performances.

Not sure if James Earl Jones counts for Star Wars, though, but he DOES count for Conan!
 
Yknow what Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Lawrence Fishburne, Morgan Freeman, Dennis Haysbert, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods and Barack Obama have in common?

They would have become successful even if they hadn't been black. They are uniquely talented individuals whose race doesn't matter a damn because their innate talent so completely eclipses the detail of their skin color.

That's why talking about them in the context of race is nonsensical. Why don't we all talk about Martin Scorsese, Donald Trump, Meryl Streep, Bill Gates, Hillary Clinton, J.J. Abrams and Robert Downey Jr. being successful just because they are white?
Lawrence Fishburne, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington & Will Smith idenifiy themselves as "Black" actors, so does Danny Glover because they wish to inspire other up and coming minority actors. Denzel also makes no qualms in showing that his inspiration was Sydney Poitier, one of the true first Black heros next to Paul Robson. Who was the inspiration behind Avery Brooks.

Tiger Woods identifies himself as of "Asian" decent.

A great deal is made about Hiliray Clinton due to being a formatible woman in politics as well a one of the first to run for President.

These people are all a big deal due to skin color or race because each and everyone of them are aware of the inspiration they provide to others of their race, gender or creed and most of them address it frequently.
 
How about this? How about actors get considered for a role based on whether or not they are right for it. Race should have absolutely nothing to do with it. Will Smith, Samuel L. Jackson, and Denzel Washington are some of the most talented and bankable actors in Hollywood right now, and their race has absolutely nothing to do with that fact. That's the way it should be. We don't need some kind of "Hollywood Affirmative Action" program. That's counter-productive to equality.
 
How about this? How about actors get considered for a role based on whether or not they are right for it. Race should have absolutely nothing to do with it. Will Smith, Samuel L. Jackson, and Denzel Washington are some of the most talented and bankable actors in Hollywood right now, and their race has absolutely nothing to do with that fact. That's the way it should be. We don't need some kind of "Hollywood Affirmative Action" program. That's counter-productive to equality.
About 2 or 3 years ago there was a big controversial debate here about casting James Bond as Black.

If race has nothing to do with it, why are so many dead set against having a fictional character such as James Bond or Bruce Wayne played by a Black actor?
 
And why can't a black actor be cast in a traditional white role? Why not have an international spy thriller staring Chiwetel Ejiofor orAdewale Akinnyoye-Agbaje?

Ejiofor would make an *awesome* James Bond.

And don't tell me that Bond can't be black. Every new Bond is a reboot anyway, so this would be no different.

I've always thought (and evidence from the movies supports this) that James Bond is a name given to the man who is currently designated 007.

(citation: George Lazenby's line in "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" who said, "This never happened to the other guy.", a clear indication that there has been more than one James Bond in the Bondiverse. It's onscreen and therefore canon. :cool: )

So a black James Bond is certainly possible.
 
Yknow what Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Lawrence Fishburne, Morgan Freeman, Dennis Haysbert, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods and Barack Obama have in common?

They would have become successful even if they hadn't been black. They are uniquely talented individuals whose race doesn't matter a damn because their innate talent so completely eclipses the detail of their skin color.

That's why talking about them in the context of race is nonsensical. Why don't we all talk about Martin Scorsese, Donald Trump, Meryl Streep, Bill Gates, Hillary Clinton, J.J. Abrams and Robert Downey Jr. being successful just because they are white?

First, your point is rather undercut by the inclusion of J.J. Abrams in the talent league of Will Smith, Oprah Winfrey and Michael Jordan.

Secondly, there are numerous discussions of people like Scorsese, Trump, Streep, Gates and Clinton being successful because they are white. But white people generally are not familiar with these discussions because whiteness is usually invisible to white people, however here's sampler. (Temis, being familiar with your opinions about "pointy-headed intellectuals", I'm not really posting these to you as I realize that if you even read them you will probably respond with your typical disdain, but I thought there might be others reading who would be interested):

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack (this is a very well-known work on this topic)
White Privilege Shapes the US
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=pocpwi1
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top