The Biology Of Spock's Blood

[scotpens]

Don't some Earth organisms have copper blood? Cyanosomething or nother. Too tired to google.

Hemocyanin. But it's a much less efficient oxygen carrier than hemoglobin, and would never work in a warm-blooded vertebrate.

 

[Corylea]

I always wondered how Amanda could have carried Spock -- wouldn't red blood in the mother and green blood in the fetus make the placenta explode or something? I'd think Sarek and Amanda would have needed to use a uterine replicator like they have in Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan saga....

 

[Anwar]

Let's not forget that the Vulcans idea of childbirth was to throw Amanda in a cave and have her give birth on a slab of rock and not in a controlled laboratory environment.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Let's not forget that the Vulcans idea of childbirth was to throw Amanda in a cave and have her give birth on a slab of rock and not in a controlled laboratory environment.

Here's some content from the Star Trek Lives phonograph album:

Roddenberry asks Ambassador Sarek about Spock--the first Human-Vulcan hybrid. Sarek replies:

"No, not the first. But the first to survive. As you must know, an Earth-Vulcan conception will abort during the end of the first month. The fetus is unable to continue life once it begins to develop its primary organs. The fetus Spock was removed from Amanda's body at this time--the first such experiment ever attempted. His tiny form resided in a test tube for the following two Earth months, while our physicians performed delicate chemical engineering, introducing over a hundred subtle changes that we hoped would sustain life. At the end of this time, the fetus was returned to Amanda's womb. At the ninth Earth month, the tiny form was again removed from Amanda, prematurely by Vulcan standards, and spent the following four months of a Vulcan term pregnancy in a specially designed incubator. The infant Spock proved surprisingly resilient--there seems to be something about the Earth-Vulcan mixture, which created in that tiny body a fierce determination to survive."

"And, as Spock grew into childhood, Ambassador--"

"Yes, yes. There must have been times when his inner mind wondered, if the fight to survive had been worthwhile. You see, while all Vulcans, including our children, live by the code of IDIC, and believe that diversity is to be admired, and treasured, it must be understood that the display of emotion is considered on our planet to be grossly offensive. No--more than that: shockingly indecent. I can only explain that our attitude is rooted in Vulcan history, involving events of such bloody violence that it's left our race forever scarred, and sensitive to displays of emotion. Whether or not this Vulcan attitude can be defended, the fact is, it exists."

Of course, this is from--what? 1974?--long before we saw a flashback of Amanda in a cave giving birth to Spock.

Also, I'm sure that there are all kinds of technological advances in the 23rd century--perhaps including semi-permeable fields. I remember that Clarke's Third Law is "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." So the source of our incredulity that a human woman could give birth to a half human-half Vulcan child--and in a cave no less--might be due more to our limitations to imagine, than it is due to the actual impossibility of the technology.

 

[Corylea]

Let's not forget that the Vulcans idea of childbirth was to throw Amanda in a cave and have her give birth on a slab of rock and not in a controlled laboratory environment.

Nah, that's Shatner's idea of Vulcan childbirth. Even Gene Roddenberry said that Star Trek V was "apocryphal."

Here's some content from the Star Trek Lives phonograph album

That was interesting; thanks for going to the trouble of posting that!

 

[plynch]

That is really interesting.

Sybok's working with memories, right? Not a videocamera in the cave. Perhaps the. ave is a metaphor in Spock's unconscious.

 

[EnsignTOS]

Let's not forget that the Vulcans idea of childbirth was to throw Amanda in a cave and have her give birth on a slab of rock and not in a controlled laboratory environment.

Here's some content from the Star Trek Lives phonograph album:

Roddenberry asks Ambassador Sarek about Spock--the first Human-Vulcan hybrid. Sarek replies:

"No, not the first. But the first to survive. As you must know, an Earth-Vulcan conception will abort during the end of the first month. The fetus is unable to continue life once it begins to develop its primary organs. The fetus Spock was removed from Amanda's body at this time--the first such experiment ever attempted. His tiny form resided in a test tube for the following two Earth months, while our physicians performed delicate chemical engineering, introducing over a hundred subtle changes that we hoped would sustain life. At the end of this time, the fetus was returned to Amanda's womb. At the ninth Earth month, the tiny form was again removed from Amanda, prematurely by Vulcan standards, and spent the following four months of a Vulcan term pregnancy in a specially designed incubator. The infant Spock proved surprisingly resilient--there seems to be something about the Earth-Vulcan mixture, which created in that tiny body a fierce determination to survive."

"And, as Spock grew into childhood, Ambassador--"

"Yes, yes. There must have been times when his inner mind wondered, if the fight to survive had been worthwhile. You see, while all Vulcans, including our children, live by the code of IDIC, and believe that diversity is to be admired, and treasured, it must be understood that the display of emotion is considered on our planet to be grossly offensive. No--more than that: shockingly indecent. I can only explain that our attitude is rooted in Vulcan history, involving events of such bloody violence that it's left our race forever scarred, and sensitive to displays of emotion. Whether or not this Vulcan attitude can be defended, the fact is, it exists."

Of course, this is from--what? 1974?--long before we saw a flashback of Amanda in a cave giving birth to Spock.

Also, I'm sure that there are all kinds of technological advances in the 23rd century--perhaps including semi-permeable fields. I remember that Clarke's Third Law is "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." So the source of our incredulity that a human woman could give birth to a half human-half Vulcan child--and in a cave no less--might be due more to our limitations to imagine, than it is due to the actual impossibility of the technology.

Is that...real information???

THAT. IS. AWESOME. I need to find a copy of this book!

 

[GSchnitzer]

Let's not forget that the Vulcans idea of childbirth was to throw Amanda in a cave and have her give birth on a slab of rock and not in a controlled laboratory environment.

Here's some content from the Star Trek Lives phonograph album:

Roddenberry asks Ambassador Sarek about Spock--the first Human-Vulcan hybrid. Sarek replies:

"No, not the first. But the first to survive. As you must know, an Earth-Vulcan conception will abort during the end of the first month. The fetus is unable to continue life once it begins to develop its primary organs. The fetus Spock was removed from Amanda's body at this time--the first such experiment ever attempted. His tiny form resided in a test tube for the following two Earth months, while our physicians performed delicate chemical engineering, introducing over a hundred subtle changes that we hoped would sustain life. At the end of this time, the fetus was returned to Amanda's womb. At the ninth Earth month, the tiny form was again removed from Amanda, prematurely by Vulcan standards, and spent the following four months of a Vulcan term pregnancy in a specially designed incubator. The infant Spock proved surprisingly resilient--there seems to be something about the Earth-Vulcan mixture, which created in that tiny body a fierce determination to survive."

"And, as Spock grew into childhood, Ambassador--"

"Yes, yes. There must have been times when his inner mind wondered, if the fight to survive had been worthwhile. You see, while all Vulcans, including our children, live by the code of IDIC, and believe that diversity is to be admired, and treasured, it must be understood that the display of emotion is considered on our planet to be grossly offensive. No--more than that: shockingly indecent. I can only explain that our attitude is rooted in Vulcan history, involving events of such bloody violence that it's left our race forever scarred, and sensitive to displays of emotion. Whether or not this Vulcan attitude can be defended, the fact is, it exists."

Of course, this is from--what? 1974?--long before we saw a flashback of Amanda in a cave giving birth to Spock.

Also, I'm sure that there are all kinds of technological advances in the 23rd century--perhaps including semi-permeable fields. I remember that Clarke's Third Law is "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." So the source of our incredulity that a human woman could give birth to a half human-half Vulcan child--and in a cave no less--might be due more to our limitations to imagine, than it is due to the actual impossibility of the technology.

Is that...real information???

THAT. IS. AWESOME. I need to find a copy of this book!

Not a book; a phonograph album. Among other cuts, Roddenberry interviews Ambassador Sarek. (Yes, it's Mark Lenard on the album.) More info here:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Inside_Star_Trek

 

[Anwar]

That is really interesting.

Sybok's working with memories, right? Not a videocamera in the cave. Perhaps the. ave is a metaphor in Spock's unconscious.

We don't know how much older Sybok was than Spock. He might've actually been there as a little boy and witnessed his little brother being born.

 

[Marsden]

I think the whole sequence was a head game by the "Entity" through Sybock to get the people and turn them. Spock resisted, but I seriously doubt that Sarek's first words on seeing his son were "So human." I think it's a culmination of abstract fears manifested visually, strike the mind with what it's most afraid of to distract it and it allowed the take over in the guise of "removing the pain". Rather, the Entity was causing the pain by amalgamating a persons worst fears.

But I think I'm not talking about Spock's blood anymore.

And don't Vulcans seem to have that retro look thing through their culture where they like everything to look so damn old even though they have great tech, so it could have been an ancient "birthing cave" that had an incubator off camera, but the vision wasn't complete because the medical preperations would have hurt the image of Spock's despair.

 

[Redfern]

Let's not forget that the Vulcans idea of childbirth was to throw Amanda in a cave and have her give birth on a slab of rock and not in a controlled laboratory environment.

Here's some content from the Star Trek Lives phonograph album...

Thanks for posting that, Schnitzer. I probably played that record well over a hundred times over the years before my phonograph finally died. I always considered it the definitive explanation for Spock's existence and I cringed when the various series post 1987 depicted "hybrids" of different species resulting from no more effort than a bit of casual "snu-snu" in the back seat of a shuttlecraft. Saavik is a special case (if one accepts the notions dropped from the final version of TWoK that she was a Vulcan/romulan hybrid). Romulans being descended from Vulcan separatists may have not experienced enough genetic drift to prevent "unaided" conception. But Klingons and Romulans? Bajorans and Cardassians?! Come on! That 1974 record showed more forethought and intelligence than those later teleplays.

Plus, it was so cool to hear Mark Lenard as Sarek again! Even though his voice was calm and dulcit, you could still sense a passion in his delivery! Interesting that Lenard played Sarek on the album, but both Shatner and Kelley were presented as themselves, as actors. I wonder if Leonard Nimoy had agreed to "appear", would the motif of an "in universe" interview been dropped.

Yeah, as presented in the ablum, Spock was certainly no "accident" resulting from a ruptured condom. No, his birth was a MAJOR medical investment. Funny, but based upon that "interview" Spock was more of the "genetic superman" than even Khan, at least as described by the dialogue from the episode "Space Seed". Remember, the dialogue discussed "selective breeding", that is eugenics, hence the phrase the Eugenics Wars. Whereas Spock, at least in the record album was truly a genetically manipulated being. Of course, TWoK updated the termoinology and effectively rewrote Khan's origin.

Sincerely,

Bill

BTW: Was the album titled "Star Trek Lives"? I thought it was titled "Inside Star Trek"? I ask only because the title of the Justman and Solow book initially caused me some confusion when it was first published.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

This thread has earned my personal award for Farthest and Fastest Topic Drift Ever, going from Spock's copper-infused blood to Amanda's lipstick in a mere five posts!

And I must say I have never, ever in my life noticed or thought about Larry Linville's lips.

Okay, to avoid being accused of posting off topic, Spock's lips should be a lighter hue of the spaceman in your avatar.

Now that the topic is out of the way, I love your avatar--the art for Bantam's Star Trek 5 novel! Wonderful work.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Here's some content from the Star Trek Lives phonograph album:

Roddenberry asks Ambassador Sarek about Spock--the first Human-Vulcan hybrid. Sarek replies:

"No, not the first. But the first to survive. As you must know, an Earth-Vulcan conception will abort during the end of the first month. The fetus is unable to continue life once it begins to develop its primary organs. The fetus Spock was removed from Amanda's body at this time--the first such experiment ever attempted. His tiny form resided in a test tube for the following two Earth months, while our physicians performed delicate chemical engineering, introducing over a hundred subtle changes that we hoped would sustain life. At the end of this time, the fetus was returned to Amanda's womb. At the ninth Earth month, the tiny form was again removed from Amanda, prematurely by Vulcan standards, and spent the following four months of a Vulcan term pregnancy in a specially designed incubator. The infant Spock proved surprisingly resilient--there seems to be something about the Earth-Vulcan mixture, which created in that tiny body a fierce determination to survive."

"And, as Spock grew into childhood, Ambassador--"

"Yes, yes. There must have been times when his inner mind wondered, if the fight to survive had been worthwhile. You see, while all Vulcans, including our children, live by the code of IDIC, and believe that diversity is to be admired, and treasured, it must be understood that the display of emotion is considered on our planet to be grossly offensive. No--more than that: shockingly indecent. I can only explain that our attitude is rooted in Vulcan history, involving events of such bloody violence that it's left our race forever scarred, and sensitive to displays of emotion. Whether or not this Vulcan attitude can be defended, the fact is, it exists."

Roddenberry..no, fans were blessed that other writers and producers acted as the mental filters Roddenberry did not possess, otherwise that quote would have made it into ST at one time or another.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Let's not forget that the Vulcans idea of childbirth was to throw Amanda in a cave and have her give birth on a slab of rock and not in a controlled laboratory environment.

Here's some content from the Star Trek Lives phonograph album...

Thanks for posting that, Schnitzer. I probably played that record well over a hundred times over the years before my phonograph finally died. I always considered it the definitive explanation for Spock's existence and I cringed when the various series post 1987 depicted "hybrids" of different species resulting from no more effort than a bit of casual "snu-snu" in the back seat of a shuttlecraft. Saavik is a special case (if one accepts the notions dropped from the final version of TWoK that she was a Vulcan/romulan hybrid). Romulans being descended from Vulcan separatists may have not experienced enough genetic drift to prevent "unaided" conception. But Klingons and Romulans? Bajorans and Cardassians?! Come on! That 1974 record showed more forethought and intelligence than those later teleplays.

Plus, it was so cool to hear Mark Lenard as Sarek again! Even though his voice was calm and dulcit, you could still sense a passion in his delivery! Interesting that Lenard played Sarek on the album, but both Shatner and Kelley were presented as themselves, as actors. I wonder if Leonard Nimoy had agreed to "appear", would the motif of an "in universe" interview been dropped.

Yeah, as presented in the ablum, Spock was certainly no "accident" resulting from a ruptured condom. No, his birth was a MAJOR medical investment. Funny, but based upon that "interview" Spock was more of the "genetic superman" than even Khan, at least as described by the dialogue from the episode "Space Seed". Remember, the dialogue discussed "selective breeding", that is eugenics, hence the phrase the Eugenics Wars. Whereas Spock, at least in the record album was truly a genetically manipulated being. Of course, TWoK updated the termoinology and effectively rewrote Khan's origin.

Sincerely,

Bill

BTW: Was the album titled "Star Trek Lives"? I thought it was titled "Inside Star Trek"? I ask only because the title of the Justman and Solow book initially caused me some confusion when it was first published.

Oops. Yes, Inside Star Trek. (I'm not sure how that happened. A momentary brain fart--and I'm getting old.)

 

[EnsignTOS]

Here's some content from the Star Trek Lives phonograph album:

Roddenberry asks Ambassador Sarek about Spock--the first Human-Vulcan hybrid. Sarek replies:

"No, not the first. But the first to survive. As you must know, an Earth-Vulcan conception will abort during the end of the first month. The fetus is unable to continue life once it begins to develop its primary organs. The fetus Spock was removed from Amanda's body at this time--the first such experiment ever attempted. His tiny form resided in a test tube for the following two Earth months, while our physicians performed delicate chemical engineering, introducing over a hundred subtle changes that we hoped would sustain life. At the end of this time, the fetus was returned to Amanda's womb. At the ninth Earth month, the tiny form was again removed from Amanda, prematurely by Vulcan standards, and spent the following four months of a Vulcan term pregnancy in a specially designed incubator. The infant Spock proved surprisingly resilient--there seems to be something about the Earth-Vulcan mixture, which created in that tiny body a fierce determination to survive."

"And, as Spock grew into childhood, Ambassador--"

"Yes, yes. There must have been times when his inner mind wondered, if the fight to survive had been worthwhile. You see, while all Vulcans, including our children, live by the code of IDIC, and believe that diversity is to be admired, and treasured, it must be understood that the display of emotion is considered on our planet to be grossly offensive. No--more than that: shockingly indecent. I can only explain that our attitude is rooted in Vulcan history, involving events of such bloody violence that it's left our race forever scarred, and sensitive to displays of emotion. Whether or not this Vulcan attitude can be defended, the fact is, it exists."

Roddenberry..no, fans were blessed that other writers and producers acted as the mental filters Roddenberry did not possess, otherwise that quote would have made it into ST at one time or another.

So, then....

What is real?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Here's some content from the Star Trek Lives phonograph album:

Roddenberry asks Ambassador Sarek about Spock--the first Human-Vulcan hybrid. Sarek replies:

"No, not the first. But the first to survive. As you must know, an Earth-Vulcan conception will abort during the end of the first month. The fetus is unable to continue life once it begins to develop its primary organs. The fetus Spock was removed from Amanda's body at this time--the first such experiment ever attempted. His tiny form resided in a test tube for the following two Earth months, while our physicians performed delicate chemical engineering, introducing over a hundred subtle changes that we hoped would sustain life. At the end of this time, the fetus was returned to Amanda's womb. At the ninth Earth month, the tiny form was again removed from Amanda, prematurely by Vulcan standards, and spent the following four months of a Vulcan term pregnancy in a specially designed incubator. The infant Spock proved surprisingly resilient--there seems to be something about the Earth-Vulcan mixture, which created in that tiny body a fierce determination to survive."

"And, as Spock grew into childhood, Ambassador--"

"Yes, yes. There must have been times when his inner mind wondered, if the fight to survive had been worthwhile. You see, while all Vulcans, including our children, live by the code of IDIC, and believe that diversity is to be admired, and treasured, it must be understood that the display of emotion is considered on our planet to be grossly offensive. No--more than that: shockingly indecent. I can only explain that our attitude is rooted in Vulcan history, involving events of such bloody violence that it's left our race forever scarred, and sensitive to displays of emotion. Whether or not this Vulcan attitude can be defended, the fact is, it exists."

Roddenberry..no, fans were blessed that other writers and producers acted as the mental filters Roddenberry did not possess, otherwise that quote would have made it into ST at one time or another.

So, then....

What is real?

If by real, you mean concepts and/or scripts, what ended up on screen is real. Regarding the fictional exploration of Spock's birth (as seen in the quote), it is just absurd--tossing in something so out there in an attempt to create some complicated biological explanation that had no bearing on the then-future of Trek.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Now that the topic is out of the way, I love your avatar--the art for Bantam's Star Trek 5 novel! Wonderful work.

Isn't it great art? I loved it when those books would pop up at the bookstore in my youth!

Though not my intention, the colors on the Star Trek 5 book kind of evoke Halloween, too!

 

[Anwar]

Thanks for posting that, Schnitzer. I probably played that record well over a hundred times over the years before my phonograph finally died. I always considered it the definitive explanation for Spock's existence and I cringed when the various series post 1987 depicted "hybrids" of different species resulting from no more effort than a bit of casual "snu-snu" in the back seat of a shuttlecraft. Saavik is a special case (if one accepts the notions dropped from the final version of TWoK that she was a Vulcan/romulan hybrid). Romulans being descended from Vulcan separatists may have not experienced enough genetic drift to prevent "unaided" conception. But Klingons and Romulans? Bajorans and Cardassians?! Come on! That 1974 record showed more forethought and intelligence than those later teleplays

Well, to be fair they at least tried to explain it by saying the Progenitors/Preservers deliberately engineered most of the humanoid life in the Trekverse so they'd be able to interbreed.

And heck, Doctor Who did the same thing.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Preservers were in the relocation/preservation business not genetic engineering.

 

[Anwar]

The Preservers were in the relocation/preservation business not genetic engineering.

Ron Moore said that the aliens he wrote for "The Chase" who also engineered most life in the Milky Way were supposed to be the Preservers.

And since we barely knew anything about the Preservers in TOS (we never even see one) it doesn't contradict anything.