The big trial - Anwar against the Evil Niners

[DevilEyes]

I don't want to make anybody feel bad here, but I am pretty confused as to the purpose of this thread. If it's to discuss the general topic of "Do the majority of Niners make fun of Voyager?" that's fine. But it seems to me that the point is the debate a particular individual. That seems pretty odd to me.

Take a look at what happened to the Cirroc Lofton/Jake Sisko thread, and you'll see what this thread is about.

I know, but...I've seen people commit far greater sins and repeat them over and over and over and do so much more rudely and not get a thread started about them. That someone might be annoyed doesn't surprise me. That this was the method used to complain about it does. Isn't that what the "ignore" button is for?

Um... who exactly are you talking about here?

In case you've missed it, here is the beginning of this - on the "How did Cirroc Lofton get away with it" thread, where it never belonged:

Okay, Anwar. Here is the deal.

I have had about enough of what I sincerely believe to be your borderline paranoid delusions - in this forum and in the VOY forum. I am tired of them as a mod in here...and I'm WAYYYY tired of them as a poster in VOY.

And so we are gonna have this out.

Right here.

Right now.

You are already apparently on a one-man quest to ruin the VOY forum with your constant accusations against all of these supposed (but nameless & faceless) DS9 fan VOY-haters who are 'out to get you' (your words, not mine). So here it is: I WANT THEIR NAMES.

I want you to NAME all of these hard-core DS9 fans who regularly post in this forum (thus proving they are, indeed, hard-core DS9 fans and not TNG fans, TOS fans, etc) and who are single-mindedly intent upon ruining your world and your enjoyment of VOY, because ALL they do is bitch about VOY.

And I only want the names of people who bitch MORE than the average VOY fan does. In other words, hard-core DS9 fans who post in the VOY forum regularly but who have never posted a single thing nice about VOY. EVER.

Not people who have a few complaints. Because ALL of the hard-core VOY fans I know of have 'complaints' about VOY. Just as all of the hard-core DS9 fans I know have complaints about DS9. I'm talking here about people who have never said a nice thing about VOY, and who come to the VOY forum on a regular basis to relentlessly trash VOY and to make YOUR life a living hell.

I want NAMES.

As the sole mod of this forum, I promise you will not be warned for posting the names themselves in this thread. If you go after the people with flames, that will be another story, but I want the names of all of these people who are making your life a living hell with their continuous, relentless and vindictive trashing of VOY.

And then I am gonna get Akiraprise and kimc in here and we are all gonna discuss this.

Because the shelf-life on this constant whining is WAAAAYYYY past expiry.

If the problem exists, then we need to fix it. And if it doesn't exist, then you need to knock off the whining and find someone else to blame for your misery.

Either way, I plan to fix it in this thread so that we can ALL move on with our lives and get past this endless frakkin' DRAMA.

You ran me out of the VOY forum with all of your whining and unsubstantiated accusations...but brother, you're NOT gonna run me out of here. I am putting the mofo LOCKS on the doors of the DS9 forum when they shut down this board - and there are only two people who can change that outcome: Bonz and God. And you are not either. But this current course, my friend, cannot continue.

And if you want to post in here, then you either need to knock off the endless whining about a problem that no one sees but you....or PROVE TO US THAT IT EXISTS so that we can fix it for you and you will then be able to be a happy guy once again.

What is incredible here is that I just looked you up, and you joined here in 2006. You weren't even HERE for the DS9/VOY wars, which took place (mostly between 2 DS9 fans and 2 VOY fans who stirred shit in BOTH forums - and who, not at all incidentally, are LONG gone) in 2001 and 2002. Nor were you here for the couple of years afterward, when guys like Digits, da Woim, and I were working to repair the damage and hard feelings left by these 4 people.

I, on the other hand, was here. Registered in August of 2001 after lurking for a few months and was a poster in both forums during the ENTIRE thing. Became the mod of this forum in January 2003. So I am more aware of the history here than...well, just about anyone, having been a regular poster in both forums during the war...and having been a mod of one of the forums for 7 years.

So....since you seem determined to single-handedly continue a silly unilateral (as best I can determine) internet message board war into the next DECADE if I don't do something about it, I'm gonna do something about it.

And the first step in that is NAMES.

I want to know who all of these DS9 fans are who are out to get you and who loathe VOY just that much as to spend their lives harassing you endlessly about it.

And myself and the two VOY mods are gonna sort this shit OUT.

Because hey...we run this shit.

Niners...if he mentions your name, please do not flame the guy. If you want, you can post links to threads in the VOY forum which illustrate that you are not, indeed, a 'hater', or you can respectfully post a more accurate depiction of your feelings toward VOY. If he posts your name and you don't even post in the VOY forum (or do not consider yourself to be a hard-core DS9 fan, for that matter) , you can say that too. But I want no personal remarks against this guy. I want him to be able to speak freely so we can all get this the hell over with. And bear in mind here that the two VOY mods (neither of whom is a particular DS9 fan, btw, so can be considered objective) will be able to speak to the issue of your supposed 'hatred' as well....and to the issue of your behavior in the VOY forum.

I am TRYING here to get this issue resolved, once and for all.

Because from the sound of the posts in here...I am not the only one who has had just about enough of the complaints of how we are intent upon ruining this guy's life. They either need to be substantiated and dealt with...or they need to be stopped once and for all.

And to the OP and the Cirroc Lofton fans out there....sorry to hijack your thread = you can post another one if you like. But this drama has gone on WAY too long, and is WAY too annoying to let continue any longer.

This discussion has got to be had (and is, in fact, long overdue)...and this is as good a place as any to finally get this over and done with. Because a continuation of this drama, which has now upset TWO forums, is an unacceptable course.

Thanks for your understanding.

Okay, off the top of my head I can remember three of the VOY haters (thought thinking about people like that is damaging to the mind...): Navaros, jimbtnp2 and arguably Gotham Central. DevilEyes is almost there. I would've mentioned GhoulBen but he's changed his tune a little bit. There were others but looking at their posts they haven't posted in a long time (I scared a lot of the haters off, good. Most of them haven't posted in months).

Anyways, yeah I admit my own postings have been the main way of learning of these guys rather than their own posts for the last two months or so. Doesn't mean they don't exist though.

And as for my post history, I've been a lurker here for years. I just didn't join until 2006. So I know about the aftermath of the DS9/VOY war since I read about it and even ran into a few holdovers when I first joined.

Okay, off the top of my head I can remember three of the VOY haters (thought thinking about people like that is damaging to the mind...): Navaros, jimbtnp2 and arguably Gotham Central. DevilEyes is almost there. I would've mentioned GhoulBen but he's changed his tune a little bit. There were others but looking at their posts they haven't posted in a long time (I scared a lot of the haters off, good. Most of them haven't posted in months).

Anyways, yeah I admit my own postings have been the main way of learning of these guys rather than their own posts for the last two months or so. Doesn't mean they don't exist though.

And as for my post history, I've been a lurker here for years. I just didn't join until 2006. So I know about the aftermath of the DS9/VOY war since I read about it and even ran into a few holdovers when I first joined.

Okay. Part of that I did not understand. But it looks like you are naming:

Navaros
jimbtnp2
Gotham Central
DevilEyes (sorta)
GhoulBen (sorta)

1. Navaros - I know he is a DS9 fan. Lets see if he turns up to comment.

2. Gotham Central - I don't know this person as he doesn't post in here. Here is a link to my search:

http://www.trekbbs.com/search.php?searchid=2550540

Are you sure he is a hard-core Niner, and not a fan of some other show? Because it looks to me from his posting record that he is, in fact, chiefly a TOS fan - not a Niner. He posts in TOS all the time...but the last time he posted a single post in here was...wait for it....JUNE! And if he is chiefly a TOS fan, then he is not a part of this problem, and you need to start bitching about TOS fans. Not Niners. Which makes it 'not my problem'.

3. jimbtnp2 - this guy was perma-banned on July 14, 2008 by Spaceman Spiff after two warnings and a friendly he received on this board in just a few days - one from me in here and one (plus the friendly) from kimc in VOY. Can't link to the BR thread...but kimc, if you do a search, you will remember the two of us tag-teaming this guy.

Here is the thread he was warned for in here:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=59798

Turns out that he is a hard-core TOS fan. He states RIGHT IN THE THREAD that he likes TOS better than DS9, and has alot of issues with DS9. So once again, if you are gonna have an issue based on this guy, have it with TOS fans, NOT NINERS!

But he's banned anyway (and over a year ago at that!), so is a non-issue. He was running a dual, and the dual was banned too.

4. DevilEyes (sorta) - is posting in this thread right now. DevilEyes, please discuss how often you post in VOY and your issues with the show. Whatever you'd like to defend yourself with. Politely.

Anwar, please post some links to DevilEyes' posts in the VOY forum that were, in your view, 'hater' posts. I want to see these for myself, and discuss them with the VOY mods, right here in plain sight.

And no...stating that he dislikes Neelix is not a 'hater post'. If everyone who disliked Neelix was considered to be a Hater...well...you would have at least one of your own mods in that category!

5. GhoulBen (sorta) - same comment as DevilEyes. State your case, GodBen. Post your links, Anwar.

Now, the next thing I'd like is for the VOY mods to comment on these posters behavior in the VOY forum.

Do any of these guys come across to you VOY mods as "VOY Haters"? Do they even post in the VOY forum regularly? Do you sit there and wonder, while reading their posts, why the hell they even POST in there, if they hate VOY THAT much???

That is what I'm trying to get at here.

But Anwar, it IS worthy of note that so far, of your three unequivocal 'haters' two of them are (or where, in the case of the banned guy) in fact TOS fans.

NOT NINERS.

Navaros I concede is a Niner, and we will address that once he and the VOY mods comment.

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=105755&page=6

I am doing what the mod asked me to - presenting my "defense" against Anwar's accusations, since I was one of them people directly named, and we were asked to prove our innocence. And this is a much better place for that than the Cirroc Lofton thread.

 

[Saito S]

I know, but...I've seen people commit far greater sins and repeat them over and over and over and do so much more rudely and not get a thread started about them. That someone might be annoyed doesn't surprise me. That this was the method used to complain about it does. Isn't that what the "ignore" button is for?

Well... I haven't. Seriously.
Specifically, I haven't seen anything - on this forum, mind you (not "on any message board, period"... good LORD, no ) that made me more aghast than the stuff Anwar's been pushing, without getting called out/warned/banned/what have you.

Just to clarify that, so no one yells at me: I have never personally seen anything that I felt was worse on THIS forum that DIDN'T quickly result in action against the person doing the bad thing.

But yeah... I dunno if you haven't read as many of his posts, Kate, or just didn't come away from his posts with the same feelings some of us have... but basically, some of us feel that he is repeatedly and relentlessly saying things that are blatantly untrue, and quite insulting, and doing so in a rather broad, sweeping manner.

Joe_Trek_Fan_A: "Well, I dunno, I don't think that just because someone says this one aspect of Voyager was bad that it means that "--
Anwar: "NO ALL NINERS HATE VOYAGER BECAUSE IT'S VOYAGER AND IF THE PLOTS/CHARACTERS/IDEAS OF EACH SHOW WERE REVERSED, YOU WOULD ALL STILL HATE VOYAGER AND LOVE DS9. THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS."

In all honestly, and I'm not just trying to bash Anwar here, that is seriously how it has felt to me (and, apparently, to others as well) for quite some time now. So... yeah, if you ask me, this is something that REALLY needed to be addressed as it is being addressed now, and is easily worth its own thread.

 

[JustKate]

^ I see. Well, if that's how you feel, that's how you feel.

 

[TheGodBen]

I agree with that ghoulish Ben fellow that Anwar is a thoughtful guy and is usually a good debater. And I also agree that he does indeed get a bee in his bonnet at times concerning Niners' hatred of VOY, and he also does at times extend that unfairly to all DS9 fans.

And that's what he has to stop, it is not only immoral but it is against the rules. It's not right for him to have judged me in the past based on things I never said, and he tends to say it in offensive ways too. As I've said, it is odd because in most other topics he is a perfectly delightful poster.

I don't want to make anybody feel bad here, but I am pretty confused as to the purpose of this thread. If it's to discuss the general topic of "Do the majority of Niners make fun of Voyager?" that's fine. But it seems to me that the point is the debate a particular individual. That seems pretty odd to me.

The PKTrekGirl's patience has been stretched because Anwar has been acting like this for months and it has to stop, either by proving Anwar right or proving him wrong. It was suggested that I used to troll the Voyager board in the past, and at the request of the mod I am putting the record straight as I see it.

Wait wait wait wait.

The series that gave us O'Brien, Worf, Cardassians, Bajorans, Ferengi, most of the Klingon culture as we now understand it, the series which included scripts by Ron D. Moore, Ira Steven Behr, and other future Niner screenwriters... Niners must all hate it?

Yup, and I don't understand it either. I'm allowed to tolerate it though.

Yes, they see it that TNG held back those future writers, diluted their concepts from how perfect they would've been if they were 100% DS9 creations and not been on another show and that working on DS9 possibly damaged their writing abilities beforehand.

My Trek DVD collection, which I display on the wall for all to see:

TNG and DS9 (and the movies). And they're the expensive ones too, not those cheap-ass slimline ones they released a few years ago. I love my TNG.

 

[RyuRoots]

He insisted that I hated TNG and Enterprise even though I am a fan of both shows (because Niners can only like DS9 and TOS),

Wait wait wait wait.

The series that gave us O'Brien, Worf, Cardassians, Bajorans, Ferengi, most of the Klingon culture as we now understand it, the series which included scripts by Ron D. Moore, Ira Steven Behr, and other future Niner screenwriters... Niners must all hate it?

Yes, they see it that TNG held back those future writers, diluted their concepts from how perfect they would've been if they were 100% DS9 creations and not been on another show and that working on DS9 possibly damaged their writing abilities beforehand.

I'm gonna have to say you're full of BS on this point. I've never seen anyone say anything like that, and of the few DS9 fans I've personally interacted with in casual conversation, they all liked TNG. I also consider myself a huge TNG fan. If anything, I dislike TOS (not hate, I like some parts, but it's the weakest to me) and love TNG and DS9.

And again with this mysterious "they". Funny how there are aren't any concrete people to point at when you make these accusations (even when it's a mod request). And so far, you really only have one POSSIBLE case, and I doubt that'll go anywhere anyway.

 

[Kegg]

I've always seen myself as a TOS/TNG/DS9 fan, for anyone keeping track. As such, never self-identified as a Niner, and still don't, but in matters of DS9/VOY debates it can be deduced where my sympathies lie.

Yes, they see it that TNG held back those future writers, diluted their concepts from how perfect they would've been if they were 100% DS9 creations

Yeah, this much I can understand.

But that's not the same thing as hating TNG. It could just be liking it significantly less than DS9, and maybe feeling that DS9 was slightly constrained by being set in the TNG universe, but you could still like TNG regardless. Especially proto-DS9 episodes like "The Wounded", "Ensign Ro" and "Chain of Command", but also TNG's morally/politicaly provocative stuff like "The Drumhead". This sort of material bears more resemblance to DS9 than anything on TOS.

that working on DS9 possibly damaged their writing abilities beforehand.

This bit I don't understand, as in... what are you saying here? They worked on DS9 which damaged their writing before... what?

 

[Cyke101]

There's a certain mod here who will remain nameless (and definitely NOT PKTrekgirl) who I hope sees this thread and realizes that no, I wasn't the only one who noticed Anwar's behavior after all. And no, don't bother asking me who it was, either -- I still like the mod-in-question.

Mind you, I find the vast majority of mods here to be absolutely wonderful! I just consider this thread to be vindication.

 

[JustKate]

Um... who exactly are you talking about here?

[snip]

I am doing what the mod asked me to - presenting my "defense" against Anwar's accusations, since I was one of them people directly named, and we were asked to prove our innocence. And this is a much better place for that than the Cirroc Lofton thread.

Yes, I saw that, and if that's what the mod asked for, that's what she should have.

I still say it's odd, though. But if nobody else does, perhaps I'm the odd one out here.

 

[TheGodBen]

I still say it's odd, though. But if nobody else does, perhaps I'm the odd one out here.

Lets look at it like this; I've known some English people that are wankers, at least four or five, people who come out with some of the most stupid, backward-ass, racist stuff you will hear... Would it be right if I was to use those people as an example of the entire English population and damn them all to hell for the actions of a tiny minority? It may sound absurd, but surely a person's nationality is an even greater determinate of who they are than what television show they like.

Anwar has been blaming Niners for a whole bunch of crap for months now, yet when pressed to name the Niners he could only think of three, one of whom apparently wasn't a Niner and another of whom was banned over a year ago, long before I was a member. And yet I and dozens of others have been insulted for months on this basis?

What's odd here is that he has been getting away with it this long, it is not odd that something is finally being done about it.

 

[JustKate]

^ I just think it's a odd way to handle it, that's all. I didn't say bad or good. Just odd. Deciding whether or not to disciplining an errant poster isn't usually done via a dedicated thread. Not as far as I know.

And I already said I might be the odd one out here. I asked why, people told me, I said to myself "Ohhhhh-kaaaaaay, that's unusual," and that's as far as it has to go. Nobody owes me any further explanation. I swear. If it's OK with the mod, and it is, nothing more need be said.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ I just think it's a odd way to handle it, that's all. I didn't say bad or good. Just odd. Deciding whether or not to disciplining an errant poster isn't usually done via a dedicated thread. Not as far as I know.

Would you have preferred it if it was done in the thread about Cirroc Lofton/the character of Jake Sisko?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I would also add that even if you DON'T like TNG--which I have definitely lost my love for over time--that does NOT automatically make you a "hater," either. I would not believe that the writers were "held back" or any theory like that unless I saw proof to that effect (concepts being pitched and rejected on a frequent basis that later wree DS9 staples, an interview outright stating it, etc.). I just think they evolved.

And they had a plan.

 

[Anwar]

This bit I don't understand, as in... what are you saying here? They worked on DS9 which damaged their writing before... what?

What I mean is that, according to the haters, working on TNG and being exposed to it damaged the minds and talents of the future DS9 writers and kept the show from being as good as it could have been. In other words, they're saying that TNG was toxic.

 

[Anwar]

I would also add that even if you DON'T like TNG--which I have definitely lost my love for over time--that does NOT automatically make you a "hater," either. I would not believe that the writers were "held back" or any theory like that unless I saw proof to that effect (concepts being pitched and rejected on a frequent basis that later wree DS9 staples, an interview outright stating it, etc.). I just think they evolved.

And they had a plan.

Hell, the Dominion was pretty much a Berman-mandated creation. He told the DS9 writers (including Piller) to create a series archenemy from the Gamma Quadrant that was 3-tiered in nature (as in, three levels to it).

 

[RyuRoots]

This bit I don't understand, as in... what are you saying here? They worked on DS9 which damaged their writing before... what?

What I mean is that, according to the haters, working on TNG and being exposed to it damaged the minds and talents of the future DS9 writers and kept the show from being as good as it could have been. In other words, they're saying that TNG was toxic.

Again with the 'they'.

The haters that only you can see and hear, just to clarify. Unless you mean Navaros specifically.

EDIT: Also just to clarify, I don't hate you or anything, Anwar. You ARE capable of reasonable, intelligent conversation. But every time you get on about this supposed hater business, I just think "No! No, you psychotic lunatic!" or something along those lines.

 

[Thestral]

DevilEyes and TheGhoulBen, best of luck in your defense! I see I was used as circumstantial evidence, I'm excited to be a minor part of a Trial.

 

[TheGodBen]

Trust me, you don't want to be involved, it's scary stuff. I'm currently watching The Wire, so now I fear that the Voyager fanatics are going to kill me for testifying.

 

[kes7]

Trust me, you don't want to be involved, it's scary stuff. I'm currently watching The Wire, so now I fear that the Voyager fanatics are going to kill me for testifying.

This VOY fanatic thought The Wire was a great episode.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[TheGodBen]

Different Wire. One that involved more witnesses being killed.

 

[Iasius]

^ I just think it's a odd way to handle it, that's all. I didn't say bad or good. Just odd. Deciding whether or not to disciplining an errant poster isn't usually done via a dedicated thread. Not as far as I know.

And I already said I might be the odd one out here. I asked why, people told me, I said to myself "Ohhhhh-kaaaaaay, that's unusual," and that's as far as it has to go. Nobody owes me any further explanation. I swear. If it's OK with the mod, and it is, nothing more need be said.

Yeah, it is unusual, being public and all. However ...
As a Niner that has never posted in the VOY forum or anything about VOY that I can remember in any forum (I rarely post in the DS9 either, I mostly lurk), I don't appreciate being called intolerant and arrogant (not to mention that Niners are supposedly predisposed to murdering his family).
The problem is that Anwar doesn't restrict his posts to those that are actually doing what he complains about. He simply lumps all DS9 fans into one group that simply hates Voyager on principle.

I agree with the intent behind this attempt at conflict-resolution even though it is a somewhat unusual way of going about it. I don't even primarily see this first and foremost as a moderator action, but simply Niners asking with whom Anwar's beef really lies (instead of simply all Niners) and his reasons for that.


PS: Anwar is welcome to post his opinions about Niners in TNZ (it's not just for politics ...). I'd welcome that.