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the best ever DS9 episode - not Far Beyond the Stars?

If you want to see a nervous breakdown done RIGHT, look at the way Edward James Olmos handled it when he got THE NEWS about Colonel Tigh. It was powerful stuff, far from rational--but it actually came across as believable, and not just someone doing Shatneresque overacting.

Damn skippy. :techman: I loved all of the Adama breaking down scenes. They were all so heartbreaking and moving. I felt so much sympathy for the guy every time and at the same time was really impressed with how fascinating the performance was, so I could appreciate it on several levels.

I think part of the reason those scenes were so effective was because Adama was so disciplined and dignified most of the time, it was all the more jarring, shocking, disturbing, and moving when he lost control of his emotions. Now that I think about it, he reminds me of Picard that way.

Sisko, on the other hand, was constantly emoting too much due to Avery Brooks's tendency to overact and ham it up for dramatic scenes, leading to scenes that just make me cringe. I hate that scene at the end of "Far Beyond the Stars" so much. I liked 95% of that episode a lot, but those last few scenes (his breakdown and monologue right at the end) annoy me so much that I have to skip that episode when I re-watch the series. Without Sisko's last two big scenes, this might be one of my top ten favourite episodes, but because of them, I consider it one of the ten worst.
 
I don't agree. Passion and determination is not enough. I don't see Kira being completely self-centered, narcissistic and hedonistic; if the Intendant had any kind of cause she seemed to really believe in and fight for - say, crushing the Alliance's opponents or making Bajor stronger or showing those Terran scum their place - I would buy her as MU Kira, a ruthless despot and oppressor. But she didn't care for anything but her own power and her own pleasure. So no, I don't see her as another version of Kira.

I guess this comes down to what you perceive the purpose of the mirror universe to be, or what you perceive to be the limits of changes that can be made. I think the Intendant works as an outlandish version of what Kira might be like if she weren't guided by a higher cause or principle. Just giving her a different cause to fight for would change her less, obviously, but then the DS9 writers decided to treat the mirror universe characters as fun-house mirror reflections.

The intent was obviously very different with Spock in the original MU episode: the idea was more to show that circumstances have changed drastically, but this one individual is the same. That works fine once, but I can't really criticize the DS9 writers for taking a different approach, with at least some of the characters.

On the other hand I tend to agree that in the later seasons the whole thing becomes repetitive and dull.

I also think it is completely idiotic to portray MU people having different sexual orientations than their counterparts, so MU Kira shouldn't be any more bisexual than prime universe Kira.

But why, other than you have establishd this arbitrary rule in your mind? Nothing about the MU makes any sense in the slightest, so why draw the line here? And at any rate, while I'm sure sexual orientation is heavily influenced by genetics, any behavior of that complexity is going to have a powerful social component as well. Not that the MU attempts to deal with any of this in a rational manner, but I don't really see any reason to "draw the line" at a character having a different sexual orientation or preference in the MU.

They probably just weren't thinking. Or else they would have tried to avoid the "evil bisexuals/evil lesbians " cliche. :rolleyes:

What about the "evil straight people" cliché, since there are plenty of characters that become evil or twisted versions of themselves in the MU without modifying their sexual behavior? It's basically the "uninhibited universe" on DS9.


I look forward to reading those.
 
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Nothing about the MU makes any sense in the slightest, so why draw the line here?
That's exactly the problem with the MU as seen in DS9. The writers apparently got the idea that it should just be an opportunity for some silliness, dressing up and girl on girl action - and who cares if it makes any sense.

And at any rate, while I'm sure sexual orientation is heavily influenced by genetics, any behavior of that complexity is going to have a powerful social component as well. Not that the MU attempts to deal with any of this in a rational manner, but I don't really see any reason to "draw the line" at a character having a different sexual orientation or preference in the MU.
Well, let's see how this social component works in the case of MU: apparently, nobody is gay or bisexual in Trek, except in the "evil" universe with no moral rules, where homosexuality and bisexuality seem to be associated with depravity, promiscuity and decadence... :shifty:

They probably just weren't thinking. Or else they would have tried to avoid the "evil bisexuals/evil lesbians " cliche. :rolleyes:

What about the "evil straight people" cliché, since there are plenty of those in the MU as well?
Funny, I've never heard of that cliche.. :rolleyes:

Um, the straight people in the MU were also straight in the PU, so this argument doesn't work at all. All the gay/bisexual "evil" people in the MU, however, have their good straight counterparts in the PU. :shifty:

Good Kira = straight Kira; evil Kira = bisexual Kira
good Ezri = straight Ezri; bad Ezri = lesbian Ezri
 
That's exactly the problem with the MU as seen in DS9. The writers apparently got the idea that it should just be an opportunity for some silliness, dressing up and girl on girl action - and who cares if it makes any sense.

It doesn't make any sense in TOS either. It just doesn't make sense in a different way.

Well, let's see how this social component works in the case of MU: apparently, nobody is gay or bisexual in Trek, except in the "evil" universe with no moral rules, where homosexuality and bisexuality seem to be associated with depravity, promiscuity and decadence... :shifty:

There should definitely be a wider array of sexual orientations in the standard Trek universe, and it is rather sad that there have only been straight characters so far.

Um, the straight people in the MU were also straight in the PU, so this argument doesn't work at all.

It does in the sense that a multitude of characters in the MU, straight or bi or whatever, are depraved, so it's not as if that behavior is associated with gay or bisexual characters only (or even mainly).

I'm going to have to rewatch some of these episodes, but what are we really talking about here other than the Kira/Ezri kiss in one of the later seasons? Is the Intendant even portrayed as bisexual before that point? I seem to remember her draped over a number male consorts and lusting after mirror Sisko primarily. She fawns over Kira when she first arrives, but that is an expression of her narcissism, not her bisexuality.

By the time Kira and Ezri kiss in season 7, two women have already kissed in the main DS9 narrative, so it's not as if this behavior was only conceivable for the show within the "depraved universe," though I agree wholeheartedly that Trek should have had an openly gay character by this time.

I don't think the DS9 MU is primarily the "evil bisexual universe." It's just a universe where anything goes to a certain extent, such as Sisko sleeping with Dax and so on.
 
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That's exactly the problem with the MU as seen in DS9. The writers apparently got the idea that it should just be an opportunity for some silliness, dressing up and girl on girl action - and who cares if it makes any sense.

It doesn't make any sense in TOS either. It just doesn't make sense in a different way.
In what way it didn't make sense in TOS?

Some things obviously didn't make sense - like Kirk and co. finding themselves in an alternate universe and immediately having different uniforms. :lol: One might say that's also very unlikely that same people would get conceived and born in an alternate universe, i.e. that the combination of chromosomes from their parents would be exactly the same (or even that their parents would all have mated in that universe as well)... which is the problem with most alternate universe stories. But it's hardly the only thing in Trek that doesn't make sense scientifically, there have been many worse offenders in that regard (galaxy populated mostly by humanoids? Very different humanoid races being able to have children together? A nearly infallible UT? etc. Not to mention the spores from "This Side of Paradise", Kirk's transporter accident in "The Enemy Within", B'Elanna being split into her Human and her Klingon half, and so on).

But dramatically, as a story, it did have a point. It introduced the idea that, in an alternate universe where things had gone very differently, Human society in the 23rd century was one built on ruthlessness and conquest; and under those different circumstances, Our Heroes could turn out very differently. It's basically a look at the dark version of the Federation, and what kind of people would the main characters we know and presumably love be, if they were brought up and lived in a universe where the strongest and the most ruthless survive.

It's fantastic premise, IMO. But Trek fiction, canon and non-canon, has dealt with it with mixed results. The best stories have been those that took the premise seriously. The worst were made when the writers seemed to stop taking it seriously and made it an exercise in silliness.

I'm going to have to rewatch some of these episodes, but what are we really talking about here other than the Kira/Ezri kiss in one of the later seasons? Is the Intendant even portrayed as bisexual before that point? I seem to remember her draped over a number male consorts and lusting after mirror Sisko primarily. She fawns over Kira when she first arrives, but that is an expression of her narcissism, not her bisexuality.
Maybe I need to rewatch the episodes, but I seem to remember that she had female sex slaves as well as male.

By the time Kira and Ezri kiss in season 7, two women have already kissed in the main DS9 narrative, so it's not as if this behavior was only conceivable for the show within the "depraved universe," though I agree wholeheartedly that Trek should have had an openly gay character by this time.

I don't think the DS9 MU is primarily the "evil bisexual universe." It's just a universe where anything goes to a certain extent, such as Sisko sleeping with Dax and so on.
Kira and Ezri, and Ezri and Leeta. So that's 3 female characters who are straight in the prime universe (it would be far-fetched to postulate that Kira was bisexual in the PU, for instance), who are bisexual (Kira), lesbian (Ezri, as suggested by Mirror Brunt's comment), and either bisexual or lesbian (Leeta). Also, the writers never wanted or allowed 'prime' Garak to be bisexual, even though Andrew Robinson played him that way at first (in his own words, he saw the character as omnisexual), and even though many of the fans thought he was bisexual or gay; but they had no problems with having Mirror Garak make a pass at Regent Worf. When the prime universe does not contain any gay or bisexual characters (Jadzia Dax comes the closest, but even in that case, she is attracted to another female Trill because of the memories of one of her previous male hosts - the feelings come from the symbionts, whose previous hosts were husband and wife), while several of their Mirror counterparts are shown engaging in homosexual relationships/sex/flirting... it leaves a bitter taste and invokes the aforementioned "unfortunate implication" that homosexuality is something that people do in a world without moral rules, where "anything goes".
 
Maybe I need to rewatch the episodes, but I seem to remember that she had female sex slaves as well as male.

Well, I'm going to rewatch these episodes before commenting further, but my impression is that Emperor's New Cloak introduces a lot of gratuitous dreck that doesn't really characterize the earlier crossovers.
 
Maybe I need to rewatch the episodes, but I seem to remember that she had female sex slaves as well as male.

Well, I'm going to rewatch these episodes before commenting further, but my impression is that Emperor's New Cloak introduces a lot of gratuitous dreck that doesn't really characterize the earlier crossovers.
You have a point there - I have a feeling that my impressions of the DS9 MU would have been better if The Emperor's New Cloak was never made. Resurrection was predictable and pointless and could be removed as well.
 
Yeah, about the homosexual characters in the MU--the ONLY one I believed was Garak making a pass at Martok. The others...I found no credibility in whatsoever.
 
I've always thought that FBTS was overrated.

what dioes everyone think about A Time to Stand/Rocks & Shoals?
 
So many great episodes.
Sacrifice of Angels.
The best action of any of the shows and excelent drama to boot. I don't think the ending was a cop out. Itfitted n well with the ds9 story and what was to come. They could have just as easily had Rom disable the station beforethe minefield came down. Thats what most of the other series would havedone.

In the cards

What seemslikeathrow away episodeis really touching and good charachter piece. The scene where jake describes them chasing a temporal agent is hilarious especially whenyou think it could easilybe aVoyager plot.

Duet
Scifi tackling an issue like genocide and responsibility. Really well acted and written.

Far beyond the stars
I think this episode did a good job of adressing prejudices. It scifi magazine givesagood context to thestar trek show, which had a multi cutural crew working together.
 
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what dioes everyone think about A Time to Stand/Rocks & Shoals?

I thought the serialized arc they started got weak in the following episodes ("Sons and Daughters" and "Behind the Lines" annoyed me because I thought Odo and Alexander were horribly written) but as a season finale and season opener combo, they were a fantastic one-two punch.
 
it's nice to address prejudices and racism, but i felt the episode did the ambition no favour. benny's nervous breakdown was embarrasing to watch. we all know situations when things don't go our way, but i think not many suffer seizures when it happens.
 
we all know situations when things don't go our way, but i think not many suffer seizures when it happens.

?

The guy had been beaten close to death and seen a young man killed. It's not like he just had his wallet stolen or found out his boiler was broken this is serious stuff..
 
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it's nice to address prejudices and racism, but i felt the episode did the ambition no favour. benny's nervous breakdown was embarrasing to watch. we all know situations when things don't go our way, but i think not many suffer seizures when it happens.

Sounds like you never witnessed a nervous breakdown. Brooks played it PERFECT in this. What a great actor!
 
Sounds like you never witnessed a nervous breakdown. Brooks played it PERFECT in this. What a great actor![/QUOTE said:
I decided to watch the episode again and I agree. Relly well acted and the episode is as good as evver.
 
we all know situations when things don't go our way, but i think not many suffer seizures when it happens.

?

The guy had been beaten close to death and seen a young man killed. It's not like he just had his wallet stolen or found out his boiler was broken this is serious stuff..
his body probably ached, but he was in good spirits the next morning at home, and in the office. until he learned that the publisher pulped his story. because benny couldn't make the captain of his story white, that's what the readers of this time were used to. then benny started to moan 'i am a human being'. the publisher had not contested this, just requested that benny keeps an eye on good business. can't help but think that's legitimate. i mean, if i wrote for the vatican, i would not suggest that celibacy is a stupid idea, though that's exactly what i think.
 
i mean, if i wrote for the vatican, i would not suggest that celibacy is a stupid idea, though that's exactly what i think.

LOL. And Rosa Parks should have just given up her seat, because that's what was normal in those days, even though she didn't agree with it.
 
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his body probably ached, but he was in good spirits the next morning at home, and in the office. until he learned that the publisher pulped his story. because benny couldn't make the captain of his story white, that's what the readers of this time were used to. then benny started to moan 'i am a human being'. the publisher had not contested this, just requested that benny keeps an eye on good business. can't help but think that's legitimate. i mean, if i wrote for the vatican, i would not suggest that celibacy is a stupid idea, though that's exactly what i think.

He was not in good spirits in the morning he'd been beaten down yet again. He'd faced thekind of discrimination none of us can understand all his life. Started to moan? I think he had that right.
 
i mean, if i wrote for the vatican, i would not suggest that celibacy is a stupid idea, though that's exactly what i think.
I would. I'd also criticise the church for the various abuse cover-ups and, and point out that their policy of spreading disinformation about condoms is akin to committing genocide on the peoples of Africa. What's the point of having convictions if you're not willing to stand by them when they're tested?
 
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