Spoilers The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos grade and discussion thread

[Qonundrum]

Like the prattling about the wellies, the scripting for the entire season has been a bit wet. Style over substance, redefined. And, ugh, the sonic magic wand again? Every use makes the Doctor look more and more lame. At least Harry Potter fans have a new show to enjoy.

 

[jaime]

Don't think it's nearly that clear-cut. Things didn't exactly go smoothy in the confrontation with him at the end of The Woman Who Fell To Earth. She also had no way of knowing where he'd end up or what he'd do. Should she have killed him just in case? Easy to judge in hindsight.

It actually unnerves me how easily killing can be justified, even the killing of innocents, even the killing of lots of innocents. They're not variables in a calculation, or points on a graph - they're people. Could you honestly, truly say you yourself could go through with it? Or live with it if you did?

The Doctor couldn't.

I am not saying the Doctor should kill as a matter of course, but he does usually deal with threats a bit more effectively. (Or she...think this is the first time I have defaulted to he.)

 

[captainkirk]

I think you can compare the Doctor to Batman in a way. Both have a self-imposed rule about not killing, and are aware that it can sometimes cost lives, but refuse to allow themselves to go down that path because they will end up justifying killing too often.

Also if you think back to Death in Heaven where the Doctor was willing to kill Missy just so Clara wouldn't be responsible. It's not just that the Doctor doesn't want to kill, he/she doesn't want the companions to become killers.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

That's an interesting concept that deserves more exploration on the show. In the Doctor's line of business, killing can sometimes save more lives. How does she feel about that?

I don't think the show will address it. But, yeah, killing Tim could've saved the inhabitants of five planets.

He did struggle with that choice in Genesis of the Daleks where he knew for a fact, that the Daleks would go on to kill billions.

Still he refused to compromise his ideals and not becoming a killer himself doesn’t make him responsible for the murderous actions of others.
He made the same choice when saving an innocent child named Davros.

 

[jaime]

He did struggle with that choice in Genesis of the Daleks where he knew for a fact, that the Daleks would go on to kill billions.

Still he refused to compromise his ideals and not becoming a killer himself doesn’t make him responsible for the murderous actions of others.
He made the same choice when saving an innocent child named Davros.

Counterpoint (to an extent) : he specified some things would be better because of facing the Daleks, and later wiped out Skaro and the Dalek fleet with the hand of Omega.

 

[Mr Awe]

He did struggle with that choice in Genesis of the Daleks where he knew for a fact, that the Daleks would go on to kill billions.

Still he refused to compromise his ideals and not becoming a killer himself doesn’t make him responsible for the murderous actions of others.
He made the same choice when saving an innocent child named Davros.

He later went back and did destroy the Dalek nursery. Although, he realized it only delayed their growth. He decided both ways in that story.

 

[David cgc]

I don't think the show will address it. But, yeah, killing Tim could've saved the inhabitants of five planets.

It came up in "Death in Heaven." Clara called out the Doctor on letting bad guys, especially Missy, escape to cause more death and destruction, and told him she'd hold him responsible for everyone Missy would kill in the future if he forced Clara to let her go. And the Doctor refused to let Clara do it and (was about to) do it himself so she wouldn't have to live with killing her.

CLARA: Doctor, I'm assuming you'll remember those coordinates?
DOCTOR: No. No, don't you dare. I won't let you.
CLARA: Old friend, is she? If you have ever let this creature live, everything that happened today, is on you. All of it, on you. And you're not going to let her live again.
DOCTOR: Clara, all I'm doing is not letting you kill her. I never said I was letting her live.
CLARA: Really?
DOCTOR: If that's the only thing that will stop you, yes.
MISSY: Seriously. Oh, Doctor. To save her soul? But who, my dear, will save yours? *Beat* Say something nice. Please?
DOCTOR: You win.
MISSY: I know.

This season has been lacking in nuance and thoughtfulness regarding the Doctor's pacifism. Graham and her could've had a very similar conversation with only a couple extra lines ("Doctor, we let that monster get away, and he killed that woman, and all the people on all these other ships. If we let him go again, we're responsible for all the hurt he'll cause." "Graham, we didn't stop him for good. That was my mistake, and my responsibility, and I'm going to fix it my way. More killing is not the answer." "Fine, you can stop him your way, but if I get to him first, I'm stopping him with mine.") that actually touched on the fact that the Doctor didn't merely allow, but in a very real sense facilitated uncountable atrocities.

There was a similar part in "Arachnids in the UK" where the Doctor specifically observed the giant spiders were too big to survive, and their lives were constant agony, and the best she could come up was to wall them up with a cache of food so they could slowly asphyxiate over weeks or months, and she was horrified that Mr. Big decided to kill the spider quickly, when her solution was also to euthanize it in the slowest possible way. It didn't make sense, except in a weird, "keeping your won hands clean is good enough" way.

 

[Starkers]

Yes we know the Doctor has killed. Look at Six with Shockeye, Ten dropping the Sykorax leader to his death, or Eleven nuking David Bradley in the Chibnall written Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. And those are just examples off the top of my head. And this is even before you get to the "worse than death" fate meted out to the Family of Blood (and how many people would have lived if the Doctor had just done that in the first place?). Of course sometimes it comes down to whether the Doctor feels you're deserving of life. Trapped in a Cyberman body, fate worse than death, existing as an immortal paving slab/sex toy, absolutely fine!

 

[The Wormhole]

existing as an immortal paving slab/sex toy, absolutely fine!

Don't knock it til you try it.

 

[starsuperion]

It came up in "Death in Heaven." Clara called out the Doctor on letting bad guys, especially Missy, escape to cause more death and destruction, and told him she'd hold him responsible for everyone Missy would kill in the future if he forced Clara to let her go. And the Doctor refused to let Clara do it and (was about to) do it himself so she wouldn't have to live with killing her.



This season has been lacking in nuance and thoughtfulness regarding the Doctor's pacifism. Graham and her could've had a very similar conversation with only a couple extra lines ("Doctor, we let that monster get away, and he killed that woman, and all the people on all these other ships. If we let him go again, we're responsible for all the hurt he'll cause." "Graham, we didn't stop him for good. That was my mistake, and my responsibility, and I'm going to fix it my way. More killing is not the answer." "Fine, you can stop him your way, but if I get to him first, I'm stopping him with mine.") that actually touched on the fact that the Doctor didn't merely allow, but in a very real sense facilitated uncountable atrocities.

There was a similar part in "Arachnids in the UK" where the Doctor specifically observed the giant spiders were too big to survive, and their lives were constant agony, and the best she could come up was to wall them up with a cache of food so they could slowly asphyxiate over weeks or months, and she was horrified that Mr. Big decided to kill the spider quickly, when her solution was also to euthanize it in the slowest possible way. It didn't make sense, except in a weird, "keeping your won hands clean is good enough" way.

That's got to be one of the most fundamental disagreements I have with Chibnall. He has this view on the Doctor that is more about Moral Ambiguity rather then the constant strive towards a virtuous life, like most people do, and rather the post modernist humanism BS that works from a moralizing perspective of Grey areas, rather then trying to see there are also black and white areas of right and wrong, and striving to do right over wrong should be the overall goal, plus weren't there supposedly always other ways then killing? IDK.. freezing the spiders in time, and moving them to a planet with a different gravitational quotient that allowed the spiders to live out their lives, with ample non meat, food source like algae, that will sustain them, and accidentally giving birth to the original Planet of the spiders that the 3rd Doctor encountered. Plus, the apathetic performance directed by Chibnall and portrayed by Whittaker is also an annoyance, as for Whittaker, she is capable of various ranges, and the name Director or show runner are both the ones who DIRECT her to what she should be feeling, it's not solely on the actress to play her part, but to follow the vision of the writer's story and portray it the way they tell her too. I have not yet seen the Doctor in her, not the true Doctor. That ancient fierce time lord. Right now, i feel like I rode the magic school bus and had a lackluster adventure.

 

[cultcross]

In audio, 8 has a soliloquy about how he's not going to think about the numbers, because if he did that then he would end up murdering millions to save billions, which is not something that he wants to do (AGAIN?).

I think this sums up nicely the Doctor's viewpoint in the new series. She has played the game of numbers before when she wiped out two races to end the Time War. Does she want to be back in that scenario again, kill this many to save that many? Her answer to the trolley problem has been changed exactly because she has already experienced one answer and what it did to her. She is already a killer, she can't change that, although she can try to make amends. But she didn't want Graham to become one for revenge, and more generally takes the view that active killing is wrong, even when it has "noble" ends. I find it sad that so many seem to see that as weak.

 

[kirk55555]

I think you can compare the Doctor to Batman in a way. Both have a self-imposed rule about not killing, and are aware that it can sometimes cost lives, but refuse to allow themselves to go down that path because they will end up justifying killing too often.

Except The Doctor has never considered killing to be completely off the table in any incarnation except the current one, outright shooting people in several incarnations and definitely pulling the "I won't technically kill you, but I'll definitely let you die or specifically put you in a situation that kills you" card many times. Plus, he barely cares when his companions do it, Leela barely got chewed out the several times she killed people. So, The Doctor letting many people die because they won't kill one person is completely against what The Doctor does, except when she's written as an arrogant shithead of a pacifist like the 13th Doctor unfortunately is.

 

[BritishSeaPower]

I mean... Batman once shot a god with a gun that held the metaphorical prime bullet from which all bullets, including the one that killed his parents, so it's not that Batman considers killing to be off the table, he just tries to always find a better way.

I do think the show has struggled with the Doctor's ethics and morals throughout the entire 55 years. Genesis shows he won't commit genocide even to end the greatest threat in the galaxy, then just a decade later he's more than willing to casually blow up their homeworld and the Thals along with them. The Doctor is remarkably passive and gets his friend killed in Earthshock but then brandishes a BFG in Resurrection (honestly, the the worst thing they ever did to Five was put that gun in his hands) but then as soon as Peri is dying in Caves he peaces out of the entire plot and almost crashes a spaceship to save his friend's life. It's all over the place. The New Series has been struggling with overtly keeping the Doctor in the semi-pacifist mold (They won't kill unless absolutely pushed. They should be better.) But Ten is remarkably petty in his punishments and allows a fair amount of folks to kill themselves. Especially as the "No Second Chances Doctor." (Really, really weird turn in hindsight). Moffat seemed better about it with Smith, but then he also wrote in a sequence where Capaldi either convinced a robot (Presumably one with a soul since it ended up in Missy's heaven) to kill itself or pushed it.

Davros' admonishment in Journey's End certainly is true. And it seems like Thirteen is consciously trying to prevent her companions from becoming weapons.

 

[captainkirk]

The weirdest one for me is one that was pointed out earlier in the thread: Chibnall's own Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. It's been a while since I watched it, but was there any reason for the Doctor to cause the missile to target the bad guy's ship? Could he not have simply beamed the part into space? It just felt very out of character, especially as no one even mentioned it.

 

[Starkers]

But Ten is remarkably petty in his punishments and allows a fair amount of folks to kill themselves. Especially as the "No Second Chances Doctor." (Really, really weird turn in hindsight). Moffat seemed better about it with Smith, but then he also wrote in a sequence where Capaldi either convinced a robot (Presumably one with a soul since it ended up in Missy's heaven) to kill itself or pushed it.

That was weird because they never clarified exactly what happened to robot guy.

Ten's weird, the whole "No second chances" conveniently falls apart when he was dealing with someone like The Master or Davros, and his punishments of the Family of Blood were worse than death horrible, and if he'd just taken them out when they first started chasing him a lot of people would have lived.

I think its disingenuous to call 13 the most pacifistic Doctor, most of the Doctors have that streak in them, but I think all have a line they will cross when it comes to it and I don't see Jodie being an exception. Besides barring something terrible happening we've yet to see all of 13's era. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see a bit more steel from Jodie, but calling her an arrogant shithead?

As for Leela, someone else might be able to answer this, but after the "No more Janus thorns" rebuke (which was hardly barely chewing her out, Tom was angry as hell as I recall) how many people did Leela end up killing?

And even if the defining trait of Jodie's Doctor is her pacifism, so what? Yes it would annoy me, but that's always been an element of the Doctor's personality and maybe it's just come to the fore in 13, the same way the Doctor's irascibility is more pronounced in 6 and 12, or his deviousness is more pronounced in 7? I might not be 100% on board with it, but she's clearly acting like the Doctor, in the same way I might dislike Six but he's clearly the Doctor.

 

[Mr Awe]

Genesis shows he won't commit genocide even to end the greatest threat in the galaxy, then just a decade later he's more than willing to casually blow up their homeworld and the Thals along with them.

Actually, it's more ambiguous than that. Later in Genesis, the Doctor goes back to the nursery to finish them off. Although, he finds that it doesn't actually finish them but only delays him. But, that was his intent towards the end of the story.

The Doctor is remarkably passive and gets his friend killed in Earthshock but then brandishes a BFG in Resurrection

Don't forget that the Doctor took a Cybergun and shot the Cyberleader on the TARDIS in an attempt to save Adric.

And it seems like Thirteen is consciously trying to prevent her companions from becoming weapons.

I think that's the way to look at it. Although, that would be realistically difficult to maintain given the situations she gets herself into. Think of police officers. They have to be ready to kill for the greater good. It should be the last resort, but those situations arise. Think of active shooter situations. Anytime the Doctor is facing off against a villain, it's potentially similar to an active shooter situation.

 

[Marc]

Don't forget that the Doctor took a Cybergun and shot the Cyberleader on the TARDIS in an attempt to save Adric.

and Six shot the cybercontroller on Telos.

 

[Solariabsg25]

The weirdest one for me is one that was pointed out earlier in the thread: Chibnall's own Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. It's been a while since I watched it, but was there any reason for the Doctor to cause the missile to target the bad guy's ship? Could he not have simply beamed the part into space? It just felt very out of character, especially as no one even mentioned it.

I think at that point Eleven was travelling a lot on his own without the Ponds, and when on his own he does go over the line a little more. Timelord Victorious, being unforgiving in A Town Called Mercy, him effectively abandoning the universe to it's fate after Angels Take Manhattan until the Clara splinter gets through to him, and abandoning The Doctor persona himself for an entire regeneration during the Time War, to name a few examples.

and Six shot the cybercontroller on Telos.

Yeah, mostly the Doctor has been against killing, but he did sometimes just go John Wick! But, writing has not always been consistent. Pertwee more than once objected to the Brigadier using force, but also gladly blew Ogrons away with a disintegrator gun.

 

[David cgc]

Especially as the "No Second Chances Doctor." (Really, really weird turn in hindsight).

It was a really weird turn immediately. I mean, sure, Ten eventually became notable for seeming to be nicer to the bad guys than he is to his friends, but fifteen seconds later, he destroys Harriet Jones's career and, possibly, the Earth for doing the exact same thing. Oh, they were leaving? You trust their word that that's that? Because you didn't a minute ago when you murdered a guy with a fruit for faking the surrender that we're now supposed to believe is legit.

 

[Marc]

It was a really weird turn immediately. I mean, sure, Ten eventually became notable for seeming to be nicer to the bad guys than he is to his friends, but fifteen seconds later, he destroys Harriet Jones's career and, possibly, the Earth for doing the exact same thing. Oh, they were leaving? You trust their word that that's that? Because you didn't a minute ago when you murdered a guy with a fruit for faking the surrender that we're now supposed to believe is legit.

There was difference.

the alien leader was coming at 10 from behind after being defeated in combat and been given the chance to retreat.

After bad guy #1 became a smear on the ground they were retreating and no longer a threat when jones had the ship destroyed. That's why the Doctor was angry with her actions. It went from being self defence to cold blooded murder.