The Avatar paradox.

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I loved it so much that I didn't buy it.

I don't like it that much and yet I bought it twice (3D/2D theatrical and extended Blu-ray versions). I saw it twice in the cinema (once in iMAX) and have watched it four times on Blu-ray. I can see a lot of the flaws that people mention but at least it doesn't bore me and it's not bad like Battlefield Earth. I might even fork out for the 4K UHD version if it becomes available.

 

[Smellmet]

I thought it was great movie.

Yeah the plot ain't particularly complex or original, but I just don't care. All the characters in it are engaging, the villains have clear motivations and are not over the top like in some films of this type, and I think the visuals more than hold their own against just about any blockbuster nine years on, Pandora is gorgeous and lush, full of colour and creativity, and the human vehicles are mostly believable looking pieces of military hardware, echoing some of Cameron's earlier work.

I've never got the hate for this movie, I find it very rewatchable and I'm looking forward to the sequels.

 

[Bast]

For me, the biggest problem was disappointment and frustration. To be totally fair, when I went to see it in the theatre, my primary interest was in seeing the pretty 3D visuals (yes, they were very impressive) and I didn’t have high expectations for the story. However, it delivered a story even poorer than I expected. My frustration was that it (as far as I could tell), it shouldn’t have been to difficult to improve the story.

I’ve found most of Cameron’s stuff in the past to be at least compelling enough that I wasn’t overly bothered by plot holes until I thought about it later: while watching Avatar, despite the pretty visuals, I found myself thinking “holy crap, this is stupid.”. I could have accepted the whole “Pocahontas in Space” storyline if there had been an effort to deliver more about the conflict beyond “duh, humans and corporations are greedy and bad, and are going to destroy the noble savages to get this McGuffin element”. A line or two of dialogue could have added logic to clarify and maybe decrease the mess. Make this bullshit element something essential for the survival of the remaining humans in space (I dunno, maybe it’s key for generating artificial gravity or something). Doing that raises the stakes and while the humans are still short sighted idiots for the stuff they did in the past, and things are still being done in a nasty, greedy way (someone’s still likely to be making money off this stuff), it also gives a compelling motivation for the human side of the conflict. They’re still assholes doing things in the wrong way, but they’re desperate assholes.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

 

[LJones41]

I wonder . . . if part of this recent antipathy toward Cameron stems from his own negative comments about the MCU and comic book movies in general.

 

[DonIago]

I could have accepted the whole “Pocahontas in Space” storyline if there had been an effort to deliver more about the conflict beyond “duh, humans and corporations are greedy and bad, and are going to destroy the noble savages to get this McGuffin element”. A line or two of dialogue could have added logic to clarify and maybe decrease the mess. Make this bullshit element something essential for the survival of the remaining humans in space (I dunno, maybe it’s key for generating artificial gravity or something). Doing that raises the stakes and while the humans are still short sighted idiots for the stuff they did in the past, and things are still being done in a nasty, greedy way (someone’s still likely to be making money off this stuff), it also gives a compelling motivation for the human side of the conflict. They’re still assholes doing things in the wrong way, but they’re desperate assholes.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

Er, IIRC it is stated in the film that things on Earth are pretty dire at this point...probably somewhat akin to things in the Firefly 'verse a century or less before the humans abandoned all hope and fled the planet, I would guess.

 

[Bast]

Er, IIRC it is stated in the film that things on Earth are pretty dire at this point...probably somewhat akin to things in the Firefly 'verse a century or less before the humans abandoned all hope and fled the planet, I would guess.

Yes, I understood that, that's what gave the humans the kick to the ass to get into space. What bearing does "unobtainium" have on it? Is it needed for something, or is it to just pad bank accounts? The impression I got was that the humans just wanted it because it's valuable. Did I miss something that says why humans are invading a planet for the stuff beyond profit? Do they need the element to sell it buy stuff to survive? If so, why aren't there other races there? Have they just turned into a less lobe-y version of Ferengi?

 

[DonIago]

Going from memory, I'm not sure we ever learn how unobtainium might specifically be useful in the film. Maybe it can help clean up the environment in some manner?

Checked the Wikipedia plot summary, and it didn't really shed any light on this, unfortunately.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I wonder . . . if part of this recent antipathy toward Cameron stems from his own negative comments about the MCU and comic book movies in general.

Unquestionably. You can't say 'Dur, superhero movies are stupid and they should stop making so many sequels to them' when you yourself are planning four totally unproven sequels to movie that even its defenders largely agree was unoriginal, simplistic and heavily reliant on the pretty pictures. It's literally an open invitation for people to pick that movie to the bone.

 

[mos6507]

It's literally an open invitation for people to pick that movie to the bone.

It's generally a bad idea for anyone in a creative profession to take pot-shots at other works that might appeal to a common fanbase. Fan infighting happens, of course, but none of that impacts the PR surrounding a property.

 

[crookeddy]

For me, the biggest problem was disappointment and frustration. To be totally fair, when I went to see it in the theatre, my primary interest was in seeing the pretty 3D visuals (yes, they were very impressive) and I didn’t have high expectations for the story. However, it delivered a story even poorer than I expected. My frustration was that it (as far as I could tell), it shouldn’t have been to difficult to improve the story.

I’ve found most of Cameron’s stuff in the past to be at least compelling enough that I wasn’t overly bothered by plot holes until I thought about it later: while watching Avatar, despite the pretty visuals, I found myself thinking “holy crap, this is stupid.”. I could have accepted the whole “Pocahontas in Space” storyline if there had been an effort to deliver more about the conflict beyond “duh, humans and corporations are greedy and bad, and are going to destroy the noble savages to get this McGuffin element”. A line or two of dialogue could have added logic to clarify and maybe decrease the mess. Make this bullshit element something essential for the survival of the remaining humans in space (I dunno, maybe it’s key for generating artificial gravity or something). Doing that raises the stakes and while the humans are still short sighted idiots for the stuff they did in the past, and things are still being done in a nasty, greedy way (someone’s still likely to be making money off this stuff), it also gives a compelling motivation for the human side of the conflict. They’re still assholes doing things in the wrong way, but they’re desperate assholes.

Just my opinion, YMMV.

It seems you missed the point of the movie. The general isn't the villain of the movie. Humans are. We will plunder and kill for no reason at all. No explanation needed.

 

[crookeddy]

It's generally a bad idea for anyone in a creative profession to take pot-shots at other works that might appeal to a common fanbase. Fan infighting happens, of course, but none of that impacts the PR surrounding a property.

He also kept going on and on about Wonder Woman being sexist...

 

[Smellmet]

Going from memory, I'm not sure we ever learn how unobtainium might specifically be useful in the film. Maybe it can help clean up the environment in some manner?

Checked the Wikipedia plot summary, and it didn't really shed any light on this, unfortunately.

The Wikipedia page states that it's a 'room temperature superconductor' - it says it at the top of the page rather than in the plot synopsis. I would imagine this material will help to solve the 'severe energy crisis' that said synopsis mentions.

It's generally a bad idea for anyone in a creative profession to take pot-shots at other works that might appeal to a common fanbase. Fan infighting happens, of course, but none of that impacts the PR surrounding a property.

Generally speaking, yes, but he does have a point, and his record is pretty much second to none when it comes to this kind of filmmaking.

 

[Spot261]

Going from memory, I'm not sure we ever learn how unobtainium might specifically be useful in the film. Maybe it can help clean up the environment in some manner?

Checked the Wikipedia plot summary, and it didn't really shed any light on this, unfortunately.

"Unobtanium" existed in the vernacular long before the film, I think it was used as a term precisely because it is so ambiguous as to the nature of the substance which serves as a plot point to drive the exploitation of the Nav'i and avoid questions arising about the specifics of it's usage.

 

[Bast]

It seems you missed the point of the movie. The general isn't the villain of the movie. Humans are. We will plunder and kill for no reason at all. No explanation needed.

I understand the point of the movie very well. Yes, humans are the villains, but for no reason at all? Throughout history, there have always been abhorrent things done, but there was always a reason. Villains have a reason for doing the shit they do. It may not always be agreeable or sane, but there is generally a reason for their actions beyond psychopathy. The closest modern day analogy I can think of to the human organization in the movie would be oil companies. Their actions are morally debatable, and their motivation is greed/profit, but that greed wouldn't exist without a (perceived) need for their product.

 

[crookeddy]

I understand the point of the movie very well. Yes, humans are the villains, but for no reason at all? Throughout history, there have always been abhorrent things done, but there was always a reason. Villains have a reason for doing the shit they do. It may not always be agreeable or sane, but there is generally a reason for their actions beyond psychopathy. The closest modern day analogy I can think of to the human organization in the movie would be oil companies. Their actions are morally debatable, and their motivation is greed/profit, but that greed wouldn't exist without a (perceived) need for their product.

And the movie stated that Unobtamium was immensely profitable, which is all we need to know. Besides that, it's yet another James Cameron commentary on the military.

 

[mos6507]

I understand the point of the movie very well. Yes, humans are the villains, but for no reason at all?.

So much time has gone by since Avatar that people have sort of lost sight of why it was a "thing" in the first place (other than the 3D aspect which was, I admit, the main draw).

Remember that not long after that movie came out Cameron went to latin america to try to prevent an oil drilling project in an indigenous area.

When he announced the sequels he said the ONLY movies he would make for the remainder of his career would be Avatar sequels and that the reason was to be very preachy about environmentalism. This is his attempt to be philanthropic within the capitalistic frame similar to Elon Musk with Tesla.

Since Avatar we've seen the state of the planet degrade further and yet people care less and less. Remember Drill, Baby Drill? Nopenhagen? Those who felt Iraq was a resource grab? Now after Obama we have President Trump and Scott Pruitt gutting the EPA. We get the government we deserve.

So say what you want about the derivative nature of Avatar, but the underlying themes are even more relevant today as ever. The Earth in Avatar's future, if they show it, probably resembles Blade Runner: 2049, a used up husk basically.

So when you are baffled by humans being the villains "for no reason at all" you're missing the point. Yes, Quaritch is the official villain, but he represents the American way of life being non-negotiable, as it were. We pollute the planet to the point of extinction with every move we make via our collective footprint. Tragedy of the Commons.

Anyone see Ready Player One? How about Earth: 2049 before it? Infinity War making Thanos a Malthusian? These issues are THE issues of sci-fi.

I would say Star Trek is ill-equipped to deal with them as it suggests we'll (after the Eugenics Wars) discover dilithium crystals and usher in an enlightened socialist utopia.

Most more modern sci-fi properties are going to have to keep wrestling with these issues in some shape or form.

 

[GreenDragonKnight]

Yup, that isn't what happened though. Avatar had a soft opening weekend of $75 million. The people that did see it loved it though, and word of mouth gave it another $75 million weekend, and then another. There was legitimate OBSESSION with this movie. There were reports of people becoming depressed that Pandora isn't real.

And then it all went away, and hardly anyone admits to having liked Avatar.

Weirdly, this is the exact same thing that happened with Titanic...

Yeah you know what, I know I misspoke: I said 9 years went by (After Titanic), I of course meant 12. I guess I got a little confused because it came out in '09. That's what I meant.

 

[GreenDragonKnight]

I'm very conflicted on Titanic, and likely biased because I was a bit of a "Titanic" buff a decade before the film came out. To me seeing the ship and the historical events recreated in such detail was a tremendous experience, and when I rewatch the film, it's that more than the story that holds my interest.

I don't exactly have that excuse with Avatar, so there must be other reasons why I rewatch that.

Titanic is a great movie. I mean, yes of course I know that the characters of Jack and Rose were made up and many people believe - understandably - that the character of Rose is, while she certainly wasn't meant to be a villain, she kind of came out that way - but that's not what amazed me about it. The characters and the love story were just kind of a side story to me. What amazed me about it was the depiction of the disaster: it looked so incredibly real. How they pulled it off I don't know; but they certainly did!

 

[GreenDragonKnight]

Oh, Avatar definitely has a white savior problem. On the other hand, a big budget tentpole sci-fi franchise where the humans are, by and large, the bad guys fascinates me.

I think that a lot of us - and the "us" in this case referring to white Americans, or Caucasian Americans or European Americans or whatever we're called nowadays - have a lot of guilty remorse now about the genocide of the Indians. And, yes, of course it is one of the greatest tragedies in all of history, and I would certainly never make light of it; but, by the same token, I am not responsible for what my ancestors did.

 

[DonIago]

Titanic is a great movie. I mean, yes of course I know that the characters of Jack and Rose were made up and many people believe - understandably - that the character of Rose is, while she certainly wasn't meant to be a villain, she kind of came out that way - but that's not what amazed me about it. The characters and the love story were just kind of a side story to me. What amazed me about it was the depiction of the disaster: it looked so incredibly real. How they pulled it off I don't know; but they certainly did!

People think Rose is a villain?

I mean, okay, she cheats on her fiance, but I thought the film made it abundantly clear that there was no serious love lost there in any case, and by the time she does anything serious I think she's already made up her mind to leave him.