The Alliance

[All Seeing Eye]

With such a huge threat posed on the Alpha Quadrant from the Dominion wouldnt it be logical for more races to have joined the alliance? surely a race such as the Tholians would have had the brains to realise that should the Dominion win the war against the alliance that the Dominion would come after them next? it makes more sense to fight to Dominion as a whole rather than fight them seperately.

Did the writers miss out on an opportunity to introduce us to other Trek races like they did with the Breen in the later seasons?

It seems more logical to me that the Tzenkethi, Tholians, Sheliak and Gorn would have joined the Federation/Klingon/Romulan Alliance.

Would you have liked to see these races more indepth? and would it have been cool to see the Alliance fleet comprising of Tholian, Gorn, Tzenkethi and Sheliak ships aswell as Federation, Romulan and Klingon ships?

Even if they wernt introduced early on, the final episode and battle against the Dominion could have had a different ending, when the fleet made it to Cardassia the ending could instead have seen reinforcements arrive in the form of these other races which allowed the alliance to win the battle over Cardassia and capture the female changeling

 

[od0_ital]

^

In the fifth season finale, there's a scene where its mentioned several alien groups have signed non-aggression treaties with the Dominion, includin' some of the ones ya are talkin' about.

Maybe ya should watch it.

 

[Saratoga NX-3842]

The Tholians had already signed a non-aggresion pact

The gorn were out near Cestus III on the far side of the Federation (8 weeks away from DS9 at maximum warp) so they were not in the line of fire.

THe Sheliak despised humaoids and thought of them as insects. We know the Gallamites (Captain Boday's race) were supplying duranium to the war efforf.

Also Zek was providing and was provided with intelligence from and to Starfleet.

i agree, it would have been nice to see ships like the Tamarians or the Jarada or even Pakled

 

[All Seeing Eye]

od0_ital said:
^

In the fifth season finale, there's a scene where its mentioned several alien groups have signed non-aggression treaties with the Dominion, includin' some of the ones ya are talkin' about.

Maybe ya should watch it.

Was there any need for that final remark? i'm well aware races have signed non agression treatys but the point im trying to make is that common sense would be that these races wouldnt have signed these treatys and would instead have joined the war on the alliance side simply because the Dominions intentions were clearly to conquer the entire quadrant, my other point is clearly that the writers lost a golden opportunity to get a more indepth view of these races.

 

[Unicron]

The Romulans themselves only joined the alliance because Vreenak was killed. Until then they had a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, and felt no inclination to change it because the Dominion were fighting their two major enemies.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Unicron said:
The Romulans themselves only joined the alliance because Vreenak was killed. Until then they had a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, and felt no inclination to change it because the Dominion were fighting their two major enemies.

Which in my opinion made the Romulans look like idiots, the Romulans were well aware how strong the Dominion was and to allow the Dominion to conquer the Federation and Klingon Empire would have been a big mistake on their part which is why they should have joined from the start.

 

[Kegek]

When the Persians invaded Greece, some of the city-states (Argos) stated out of the war. Some even aligned themselves with the Persians. The Persian's aims were clear, the naked intent to conquer Greece. That didn't make the disunity go away.

If anything, the refusal of some Alpha Quadrant races to get involved was very realistic. It also didn't overcomplicate the narrative, so it's doubleplusgood.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Fire said:
With such a huge threat posed on the Alpha Quadrant from the Dominion wouldnt it be logical for more races to have joined the alliance? surely a race such as the Tholians would have had the brains to realise that should the Dominion win the war against the alliance that the Dominion would come after them next?

Who knows? Some races might have bided their time to see which side was winning before choosing sides.

Did the writers miss out on an opportunity to introduce us to other Trek races like they did with the Breen in the later seasons?

No I think they approached it in just the right way by focusing on the most familiar and most used species that had been developed in TOS/TNG and DS9 because we got to see how they responded to the Dominion and those dynamics--the Klingons invading Cardassia, the Cardassians closing their borders, the Cardassians joining the Dominion, the Klingons running back to the Federation, the Romulan's initial pragmatic staying behind the scenes before joining up with the Alliance etc.

I was more than happy with the namedropping that we did get with the Tholians or Miradorn.

 

[Navaros]

As others have pointed out, the show was wise enough to have thought-out this possibility and show that the Dominion was ahead of the Federation in alliance-making warmongering. So it's not a missed opportunity in such terms of they simply never bothered to think of it.

I do agree though, that the Dominion War should have been more epic by putting a lot more races involved on-screen. From both sides. Even if it's just to show how Weyoun convinced them to sign non-aggression pacts. That woulda been awesome to see. :thumbsup:

 

[Unicron]

I hear what you're saying, Fire, but I just don't think it's that simplistic. The Romulans were definitely aware of the threat posed by the Dominions, especially with the Cardassians joining them. But that doesn't mean they can set aside their old enmities at the first shot, or naively assume that the alliance would just welcome them in. It's no different from them not sending Starfleet any help at W59, even though it was clear the Borg were a threat to all.

History is full of plenty of examples of these situations, and in hindsight they seem incredibly stupid to us now. But when you look at the context of their own time, they become more understandable. Not justified necessarily, but understandable.

 

[Thrall]

Fire said:

Unicron said:
The Romulans themselves only joined the alliance because Vreenak was killed. Until then they had a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, and felt no inclination to change it because the Dominion were fighting their two major enemies.

Which in my opinion made the Romulans look like idiots, the Romulans were well aware how strong the Dominion was and to allow the Dominion to conquer the Federation and Klingon Empire would have been a big mistake on their part which is why they should have joined from the start.

I think they made mention some where that they were considering getting rid of their non-aggression pact. Don't remember where though.

 

[Timo]

Some of the terminology used here is inherently a bit misleading, and again realistically so.

Why should somebody like the Romulans or Klingons or Breen care for an "Alpha Quadrant"? This is a totally arbitrary astrographic volume, apparently invented by the Federation to promote their internal unity and their desire to eventually conquer all the said volume. Klingons would worry more about the unity of the volume they see as their own region of supremacy, and might in fact be delighted to see the Federation conquered by an outside force, as it might actually strengthen the Klingon strategic position.

The bit players like the Miradorn would have even less interest in protecting Alpha Quadrant "unity". They'd worry about being conquered by the Federation; now there would be a chance to ally with somebody who could protect them from that threat. Getting conquered would be inevitable sooner or later for these bit players; getting conquered by the better and stronger masters would be a good investment in future stability and security.

On the microlevel, everybody in the immediate neutral vicinity of Bajor would see the Feds, Cardassians, Klingons and Jem'Hadar as equally alien invaders. Allying with one would court disaster when the other came a-knocking. At one time, it must have sounded like a good idea to get friendly with Cardassians - but then the Feds came and steamrollered that ally. Being friends with the Feds would also have been a mistake, as they apparently withdrew and left the area neutral once again, allowing Cardassian influence to spread again. Klingons bettered the Cardassians later on, but they would have been a disastrous ally when the Jem'Hadar came and purged the region of Klingon outposts.

The concept of "everybody allying against the aggressor" is a pretty alien one to human thinking, really. It hasn't happened too often in known history. People often think of WWII as an alliance of "free peoples" against Nazi or Japanese aggression, but in reality France initially considered Britain a more fearsome enemy than Germany; the United States only opposed the Nazis because it wanted Europe to remain divided and weak, not unified under a single rule; and the Southeast Asian colonial powers joined forces in the fight against the Japanese mainly because they had previously split those forces, with France supporting the Japanese cause and the British and the United States opposing it.

It is far more common to join wars on the side of the aggressor, already for the reason that the aggressor is usually better prepared and thus has the greater odds of triumphing and making it a short war. After WWII and Korea, the second half of the 20th century saw no defensive alliances of note, but plenty of offensive ones. That is, neither NATO nor the Warsaw Pact ever acted in the cause of defense in the 20th century - the first time NATO did anything defensive in an actual military crisis was with the pledge of loyalty to the target of the 9/11 attacks, and that never led to any defensive military action, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unicron]

^ Indeed. I was reading a good book on WWI last night, and it's really interesting because it provides an in-depth look at how the war actually occurred on the parts of the major governments involved, and it's amazing how much stupidity existed everywhere. France and Britain, though allies, often didn't communicate with each other at any official level. When they did, their leaders spent more time arguing over strategy than even making it a good strategy. They were all interested in their own glory, and some of the commanders in Germany were no different. Ultimately a majority of the battles accomplished more death and destruction than they did in a tactical sense.

 

[Ezri]

Look, it did take some time to bring the Breen into official canon. There were some Breen before the war, during the war, and we still are very clueless who they are. Can anyone tell me if the Breen have two eyes or three eyes as official canon. There is no canon what they look like under that uniform. Since DS9 has left open what a Breen looks like as canon, you think they could add someone else on the side of the federation.

Got an idea, lets add in the ZITS. They are a race that have a bad case of zits all over there body. When they pop a zit it shoots out and burns the victim. There ships shoot zit juice that burns holes in the enemy’s ships. Sure, watching the space battles with chunks of zits smashing into enemy ships. There we go, a new race and a race we care nothing about.

 

[Jamee999]

Is there even canon to say the Breen HAVE eyes?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Jamee999 said:
Is there even canon to say the Breen HAVE eyes?

Well I doubt they use Sonar dont you? plus if they didnt have eyes why would their suit have a visor?

 

[Ezri]

Is it not strange we are debating non canon about eyes. Will say they have eyes, do they have two eyes or three eyes? Can anyone tell me the canon of the eyes of the Breen, the answer is no as nobody knows for sure.

If we are clueless with the Breen, think how clueless we would be with the introduction of a new race. This is the reason there was nobody that joined the federation, as we are having problems with what the enemy looks like. If we cannot settle on an enemy how can we have time to introduce someone on the federation side of the war.

 

[Huntingdon]

That's not an issue. We're familiar with some fo the ships of various races - just have a few of them appear onscreen in a battle. It would please the fans examining it in detail, and completely bypass those who might get confused.

The odd Ferengi Marauder wouldn't have gone amiss in the final battle. It's the point where a few DaiMons may have seen a profit in joining in.