So you got nothing huh?
The age of the antihero
- Thread starter Refuge
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I cannot comment on the goodness of the Lord, but it's pretty clear that by the time T'Kuvma got there Shenzhou's computers contained nothing of value to military intelligence (he even says as much, in frustration, to L'Rell).Good Lord
What are you talking about? YOU were asked to support your claim that self-detonating captured vessels is standard procedure. Now you're getting butthurt because I am unable to provide evidence for your thoery?
Seriously... what the actual hell is going on with you?
This is sort like Groundhog Day, in a way. Everyone is repeating themselves because we believe what we say is the better answer.
The Shenzhou was in old Federation territory that the Klingons had victory in. However no matter how you slice and dice it she had resources the enemy could use. We know that because they did. There was ample opportunity to destroy her. It's really that simple.
There was no reason for them to do so-period.
There was no way for the crew of the Shenzou to predict that Voq and L'Rell would attempt to salvage any materials.
The territory was under dispute between the two powers so there was not necessarily a reason for Starfleet to attempt to venture back until they rebuilt their strength.
I guess we shall beg to differ. I remember those scenes with Voq and L'Rell and my gut reaction was - doh, what the hell are they doing there? It was like a slap in the face. (I still wonder if the possibility of the transformation regards 'Tyler' is going to be traced back to what happened while he was on the Shenzhou. HOWEVER before anyone gets all bent out of shape, I'm not saying it will or did, just speculating
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Which means our heroes don't do everything right. They can make mistakes.I guess we shall beg to differ. I remember those scenes with Voq and L'Rell and my gut reaction was - doh, what the hell are they doing there? It was like a slap in the face. (I still wonder if the possibility of the transformation regards 'Tyler' is going to be traced back to what happened while he was on the Shenzhou. HOWEVER before anyone gets all bent out of shape, I'm not saying it will or did, just speculating
Then for goodness sake, say what you really mean. It seems like you change your mind or forget what we were talking about every other post making it impossible to see a coherent thread of conversation with you.I never said that at all. Talk away, it's all good.
What is your point in mentioning that Lorca has blown up two ships? You seem to be suggesting this is representative. No? If not, then what relevance does it have? Lorca wasn't in command of the Shenzhou. Even if he were, there was no crew left over in danger of becoming Klingon prisoners, and no above top secret prototype. What do another captain's decisions in those other unique situations have to do with the Shenzhou?
By the way, since you supposedly missed it the first time, let me show you exactly what just happened.
Question:
Question, again:
Question, again:
And your response:
Just so you don't ignore this for 10 pages and then come back and say "no one asked me that" and reset the discussion by repeating your first post again. First you blatantly ignore the question, then you sort of answer the question...
...while blatantly ignoring the qualifier "that doesn't rely on SIX MONTHS of hindsight and an amazing, unforeseen coincidence".
And I tried prodding ralfy for it myself this morning, in case you missed it, also with no response:
It's been over a week and we're still waiting for you, or anyone, to answer the damn question.
Gut reactions are understandable, but by nature they often fall apart under scrutiny, and it's a bit ridiculous to keep holding on to them in spite of that and arguing them with no defense other than claiming your gut is "common sense".
I might be misinterpreting tone here but you seem a little demanding, lol.
When I say talk away I mean it's cool to talk about whatever you think is relevant to the subject. I say what I mean and then there is the odd remark that it is repeated. That is because I get asked again and say what I mean again. Asking me more times does not change my answer or anyone else's.
Lorca blew up two ships because he had the capabilities to do so. Either detonation or in the case of the Glenn by torpedo. So we know that is a facility of Starfleet ships/weapons and actionable by Starfleet captains. On the show we are currently watching within the relevant timeline we are currently watching.
By the way I have a life outside of this thread
However nothing has changed in my interpretation. The Shenzhou was in territory that made her vulnerable to Klingon interest as was shown. That is not in dispute. Klingons did take advantage of her. Someone being Saru or another vessel, anyone with half a brain should have taken away any advantage the ship could have afforded the enemy. Tow it, blow it, gut it. They had six months to do it. It was ridiculous that it was just left there.
If the territory is in dispute and your power is weakened by a surprise attack, why would you run back in to the same territory?
I think (and I'm not saying you Fireproof) that I am reading two contrary reasons here. The Shenzhou was left floating around because she was in enemy territory and that was a dangerous scenario. The Shenzhou was left floating around because Starfleet had no reason to think the enemy was going to be around to take advantage.
This is what really happened. The Shenzhou was left floating around because although it makes Starfleet look like incompetent dills, it needed to be harvested. The telescope. The dlilithium processing unit. Voq needed to languish there. It's one or the other. It either fits the story even with examples of Starfleet sanctioning the opposite or it doesn't fit the story and was clumsily written.
Since your answer thus far has been to evade the question, I take it you mean you don't have an answer and that isn't going to change?
Lorca blew up two ships not simply because he had the capability, but because he had the capability and a compelling reason. That's an important distinction a few people in this thread apparently struggle to grasp. The fact that one is capable, or that it's not difficult, or that there is time to do it are not compelling reasons. We would need to see why they thought it was necessary at the time. This was obvious in the two cases you refer to but not at the end of episode 2.
And again you appear to suggest that all the evidence in Trek series other than Discovery is not "relevant". But last time I said so you said "I never said that at all" and didn't elaborate. Yet here we are again. So again I ask you, say what you really mean.
Those aren't contradictory because they refer to two different periods of time. At the time it was considered too dangerous to return, the Klingons had overtaken that territory and were winning the war. That was not the case 6 months prior when all the Klingons in the area were dead, the crew was safely evacuated and there was no clear and present reason the ship would not be recoverable and/or would become a danger or advantage to the enemy if not sacrificed.
The Klingons showed absolutely no interest in the Shenzhou or any other dead hulk of a ship. They never have. There is one exception, and that was the cult members dying on another dead hulk for 6 months, which has happened exactly once in all of Star Trek. Any of us would be lying if we said we saw that coming. Why do you want to see our characters foresee what the writers were planning before it happened? That would be poor writing.
As we know, absolutely under normal circumstances they would attempt to tow it, which is precisely why they wouldn't blow it unless absolutely necessary. But again, 6 months of war is not a normal circumstance.
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I might have answered the question about twenty times
Think about it. It was a Starfleet vessel with Starfleet everything on it. When you leave your job you clear out your desk, and computer. Basic. In a war situation you can even blow things up, destroy them. Clearly you believe that Saru and no one else had reason to think there was anything worth keeping from the enemy. (Yeah right, as if). To repeat... I know they did as L'Rell and Voq proved. Clearly destroying a ship IS possible and sanctioned by Starfleet. There were compelling reasons that were fudged, badly written or just don't fit.The Klingons were in the area or they were not. So the Shenzhou was left for both reasons whatever one suits it would seem. Come on that is convenient. Let's not forget Starfleet are not entirely incapable of confronting the enemy if necessary. Or as you suggest there was a time when there was little Klingon presence. Opportunity was there. Precedent to destroy resources is there.
Apparently not. In reading this thread it would seem that these guys be they hero or antihero have done everything without fault. Who would've thought, lol.
Funny you should say that, because the fact that members of the Shenzhou crew quite literally did that is being called a plot hole here. Somehow, the mundane has become unbelievable, and the extreme (blowing everything up) is expected and required. You can't just casually equate the two.
No. Stop. This is not answering the question. For the 20th time (your number), tell us why this should have been expected. You know this now. Did you know this would happen when you watched episode 2? Yes or no.
Which can only mean it should happen every time, right? Just like when you leave your job.
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In which scene did they give the enemy anything?
Good lord!
Why don't you go back through this thread and there are several posts by different members regards what the enemy gained and had the potential to gain. I'm pretty sure there are references that you might be able to source a scene to. Especially regards Voq and L'Rell
