The absurdity of promoting Janeway to admiral

[Maria]

Why is it that any time a man criticizes a woman, it's cited that "this" is only happening because she is a woman? Isn't it possible that not every lack of intense zealous praise for Kathryn Janeway is not born bloody and screaming from chauvinism?

Maybe i see ghosts and i am affected by this damn lesson. But i am a little suspicious because
1) There is a comparison between the women who where promoted and men (who didn't even want to be promoted!)
2) Men who shouldn't be promoted by your criteria ( i 'll use again admiral McCoy) don't have this "attack" against them.

Ok you don't like Voyager, you hate Janeway because the script was awful. But this reaction is extreme, not only this specific situation but generally fighting about fictional characters.

I am talking about the only promoted women i have watched ( i know nothing about DS9, i haven't watch it yet). And generally even if star trek is about a future society a lot changed, without unequalities.. still there are very few women (TOS women where meant to be Kirk's girlfriends) and their role in society hasn't changed a lot, at least not in the rate the other changes occured. Just look the title! If the author didn't liked the promotion of Janeway he could write " why Janeway was promoted?" instead of using words like "absurdity". I don't know why these scifi characters would cause such hostile feelings except this of this subconsious matter.
On the other hand, maybe my third attempt to pass sociology affected me more than what i was expecting..

But DS9 wasn't the only one. TNG and VOY gave roles to women that to this day are dominated by men in the real world, doctor and engineer, and nobody seems to be fussing about that. Troi and Janeway are the exceptions to a rule. Janeway wasn't the only female captain seen in Star Trek; and she and Troi weren't the only females to be promoted.

If i am not mistaken, they were the only main characters promoted above other main characters.. for example i don't think that noone cares about B'ellana's promotion as chief engineer instead of that starfleet guy (i don't even remember his name)

 

[SPCTRE]

What about Rand?

She goes from a yeoman facilitated to relieve Kirks tension (Remember his "how am I supposed to operate when I have to ignore how beautiful she is" speech?) to transporter chief in the motion picture (Who he ignored, while his Vulcan XO was turning inside out. Apparently Kirk can operate with ease around women over 30.) to first officer of the excelsior in Voy Flashback if not The Undiscovered Country as well?

Which means that probably if nothing bad happened, that Rand was just as likely to take over the Excelsior when old man Sulu retired as Riker was when old man Picard retired.

Why is it that any time a man criticizes a woman, it's cited that "this" is only happening because she is a woman? Isn't it possible that not every lack of intense zealous praise for Kathryn Janeway is not born bloody and screaming from chauvinism?

In a fair world it has to be possible that at least one percent of the shit thrown at Kathryn has to have been flung by people with legitimate concerns of her value as a person and a Starfleet Captain paying no disrespect for how she pees sitting down?

Sometimes, after a long day I pee sitting down.

Amen to that

 

[Guy Gardener]

maria seyz
If i am not mistaken, they were the only main characters promoted above other main characters.. for example i don't think that no one cares about B'ellana's promotion as chief engineer instead of that starfleet guy (i don't even remember his name)

Joe Carey.

He's kind of famous.

Admiral Janeway decided that the universe was better off without him, considering that she chose not to save the lad by arriving in her dank history just a few weeks after the lad was shot dead.

That has to be worse then being treated as a second class citizen.

For whimsy she remurdered him.

She chose not to unmurder an awful lot of people just so that Seven and Chuckles could get married.

I liked Hogan who was eaten by a snake and I liked Durst who had his face peeled off by a Vidiian... There was almost 30 deaths on camera by the time Admiral Janeway turned up but she decided that only the last unseen 22 fatalities were worth heading off at the pass from season 8 through 23.

By the way Maria, my relationship with Janeway is complicated, so don't think you can tie some neat bow around it by saying I don't like Voyager.

 

[zar]

If i am not mistaken, they were the only main characters promoted above other main characters.. for example i don't think that noone cares about B'ellana's promotion as chief engineer instead of that starfleet guy (i don't even remember his name)

But why would they have had to be seen promoted over someone if they are already in high positions? If your assumption is correct, shouldn't the Janeway-naysayers also be bothered by the fact that Torres and Beverly are chief engineer and medical, and therefore often seen ordering around male subordinates (the CMO even gets to overrule the captain sometimes)?

 

[Maria]

maria seyz
If i am not mistaken, they were the only main characters promoted above other main characters.. for example i don't think that no one cares about B'ellana's promotion as chief engineer instead of that starfleet guy (i don't even remember his name)

Joe Carey.

He's kind of famous.

Admiral Janeway decided that the universe was better off without him, considering that she chose not to save the lad by arriving in her dank history just a few weeks after the lad was shot dead.

That has to be worse then being treated as a second class citizen.

For whimsy she remurdered him.

She chose not to unmurder an awful lot of people just so that Seven and Chuckles could get married.

I liked Hogan who was eaten by a snake and I liked Durst who had his face peeled off by a Vidiian... There was almost 30 deaths on camera by the time Admiral Janeway turned up but she decided that only the last 22 were worth saving.

By the way Maria, my relationship with Janeway is complicated, so don't think you can tie some neat bow around it by saying I don't like Voyager.

Except that wormhole Ferengi used to return to AQ, this borg unicomplex was their only oportunity to go back wasn't it? So she had to choose between them. And a last episode with borg is much better than with these damn ferengi..

If i am not mistaken, they were the only main characters promoted above other main characters.. for example i don't think that noone cares about B'ellana's promotion as chief engineer instead of that starfleet guy (i don't even remember his name)

But why would they have had to be seen promoted over someone if they are already in high positions? If your assumption is correct, shouldn't the Janeway-naysayers also be bothered by the fact that Torres and Beverly are chief engineer and medical, and therefore often seen ordering around male subordinates (the CMO even gets to overrule the captain sometimes)?

For many people Picard is their favorite captain and they don't want him to get orders from Janeway. But Beverly doesn't give orders to their favorite male doctor/nurse.. that's the difference. You usually choose your favorite captain and you rapport with him/her, not your favorite ensign, so you don't care if this female ensign is promoted and gives orders to a male ensign.
I am not saying that there is definitely sexism, but maybe it's a part of this conversation.

 

[zar]

For many people Picard is their favorite captain and they don't want him to get orders from Janeway.

So what about all the other female admirals Picard has taken orders from?

But Beverly doesn't give orders to their favorite male doctor/nurse.. that's the difference.

Earlier you were comparing Troi to Data though. Data isn't anyone's favorite counselor. So how can that be the reason? If people don't like the Troi-Data situation because Troi is a woman, why don't they hate that Seven was rehabilitated and given more responsibilities while males remained at the same rank, or that Tom was demoted below Torres, or that T'Pol was made a Starfleet commander?

 

[Maria]

For many people Picard is their favorite captain and they don't want him to get orders from Janeway.

So what about all the other female admirals Picard has taken orders from?

But Beverly doesn't give orders to their favorite male doctor/nurse.. that's the difference.

Earlier you were comparing Troi to Data though. Data isn't anyone's favorite counselor. So how can that be the reason? If people don't like the Troi-Data situation because Troi is a woman, why don't they hate that Seven was rehabilitated and given more responsibilities while males remained at the same rank, or that Tom was demoted below Torres, or that T'Pol was made a Starfleet commander?

You saw these female admirals once and that's all. But you have seen Janeway many times and you liked Picard more,ok. So you don't like Janeway as admiral when Picard isn't. The question is, why you open a new thread and have all this argue, when Picard doesn't want to be admiral??
And about f.e. Troi and Data. They said that Troi knows nothing about commading a ship when there is an emergency etc, But they forgot that Data can hardly understand a joke, how could he respond to diplomatical issues?Isn't that strange? They forget what they want to forget. Seven hadn't a rank and her responsibilities had to do mainly with her borg knowledge... and i didn't like Tom's demotion.

 

[zar]

So you don't like Janeway as admiral when Picard isn't. The question is, why you open a new thread and have all this argue, when Picard doesn't want to be admiral??

The thread starter didn't say anything about Picard though. It's not called "the absurdity of promoting Janeway instead of Picard". I think Kelthaz was the only one who speculated that is the reason.

They said that Troi knows nothing about commading a ship when there is an emergency etc, But they forgot that Data can hardly understand a joke, how could he respond to diplomatical issues?Isn't that strange? They forget what they want to forget.

Again I haven't seen anyone actually mention Data being a better choice than Troi, so you're either making this up or referring to something outside this thread.

But in their defense (whoever they are), the only time Troi was shown in command she was depicted as completely uncomfortable and uncertain, always asking others for advice (episode Disaster), but Data was confident and decisive (Yesterday's Enterprise).

 

[SPCTRE]

You saw these female admirals once and that's all.

Actually, that's not correct. Admiral Nechayev was in four episodes of TNG (plus one episode of DS9).

 

[Guy Gardener]

maria seyz
Except that wormhole Ferengi used to return to AQ, this borg unicomplex was their only oportunity to go back wasn't it? So she had to choose between them. And a last episode with borg is much better than with these damn ferengi..

Admiral Janeway could have bought some warp coils with her that were at least compatible as what they were using in Hope and Fear which allowed them to travel back to the border of Borg space, backtrack back to where they started and then voyager on for another 300 light years past that mark... What was that? A 40 thousand light year detour just because Seven and Janeway were tied to some train tracks screaming for Popeye to save them? If they had let the blonde and the half sized Captain bite it, the rest of the crew would have gotten home that episode.

Admiral Janeway could have went beck to Romulan space, blown away the Romulan science vessel and been waiting for her first season counterpart in Eye of the Needle.

If Admiral Janeway had told Captain Janeway that Quinn was going to kill himself for a certainly then she might not have... Actually Admiral Janeway could have simply taken over the proceeding as she outranked her younger version and taken Q's deal to get home.

The Admiral could have killed Braxton in Futures End who was such a bastard to restrand them merely because they had important things left over to still do to preserve the time line.

Why didn't they take a transwarp coil from the DEFENCELESS and abandoned Borg cube in Unity?

Why couldn't they transport people through the Hirogen communication network from message in a bottle? With Admiral Janeways advanced tech to help out, maybe they could have?

Janeway might have known how to stabilize the Omega particles, or at least told her younger self to have faith in seven's theories which seemed to work until Seven began following orders to cowboy down.

If they had just waited around for half an hour, the blink of an eye people would have had technology comparable to 40th century earth.

They could have gotten a lift with that klingon from Unimatrix Zero.who now owned a Borg Sphere.

From Prime factors they could have radioed the Cytherians.

Admiral Janeway could have convinced Captain Janeway that Ransom was right, or cock blocked Captain Janeway from finding out what was going on until they back to earth using the beasties as fuel... Criminals or bastards, on the run or not, including Ransom every one of those nearly 30 or so Equinox crew lost during the course of that adventure were technically under Janeways command. She lost 30 crew in a day and a half but this isn't a day she considers needs a do-over?

Truly but, Admiral Janeway didn't need to find a missed opportunity, she could have arrived at any point and brought any technology with her up to and including trapping and chaining Kes to the matter/antimatter intermix chamber and prodding halfa dozen 10 thousand light year skips towards home out of her with Klingon pain sticks.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So you don't like Janeway as admiral when Picard isn't. The question is, why you open a new thread and have all this argue, when Picard doesn't want to be admiral??

The thread starter didn't say anything about Picard though. It's not called "the absurdity of promoting Janeway instead of Picard". I think Kelthaz was the only one who speculated that is the reason.

They said that Troi knows nothing about commading a ship when there is an emergency etc, But they forgot that Data can hardly understand a joke, how could he respond to diplomatical issues?Isn't that strange? They forget what they want to forget.

Again I haven't seen anyone actually mention Data being a better choice than Troi, so you're either making this up or referring to something outside this thread.

But in their defense (whoever they are), the only time Troi was shown in command she was depicted as completely uncomfortable and uncertain, always asking others for advice (episode Disaster), but Data was confident and decisive (Yesterday's Enterprise).

Data had been in starfleet for over 30 years by the point Deanna was promoted ahead of him, and he cited racism in redemption when Picard didn't want to give him a ship to man the Blockade toward Romulan space.

here's the real difference between Troi and data... Data worked hard and got the promotions that were due to him. Deanna worked hard and couldn't get the promotions due to her because she didn't have Bridge Officer Qualifications. As a councillor in Starfleet it might have been possible one day that she had risen to the rank of admiral with out ever having the qualifications or right to legally take command of the bridge unless it was in the middle of a disaster with dead people every where. A damn burst. A bubble popped. The new rank she attained had been in a holding pattern suspended over the lady waiting for the little beatoazoid to get her shit together.

In my fanfictions I make Dee XO on the Titan. (Those Titan books were awful.)

 

[Maria]

So you don't like Janeway as admiral when Picard isn't. The question is, why you open a new thread and have all this argue, when Picard doesn't want to be admiral??

The thread starter didn't say anything about Picard though. It's not called "the absurdity of promoting Janeway instead of Picard". I think Kelthaz was the only one who speculated that is the reason.

They said that Troi knows nothing about commading a ship when there is an emergency etc, But they forgot that Data can hardly understand a joke, how could he respond to diplomatical issues?Isn't that strange? They forget what they want to forget.

Again I haven't seen anyone actually mention Data being a better choice than Troi, so you're either making this up or referring to something outside this thread.

But in their defense (whoever they are), the only time Troi was shown in command she was depicted as completely uncomfortable and uncertain, always asking others for advice (episode Disaster), but Data was confident and decisive (Yesterday's Enterprise).

The thread started like this

Why on Earth was Janeway put in a position to give Picard strategic orders regarding Romulans?
He meant that Janeway hasn't experience with romulians (but she has..) but yes, we don't know if he meant also that Picard was more qualified. The thread continued about this Janeway-Picard thing and i screw it up a little.

Yes it was from another forum, i don't remember which. We saw her in command only in this episode but obviously she knew nothing about these situations, it's normal to ask others if you don't know what to do.. but she studied to pass the exams (but we don't know what...) and she did it. So why she doesn't deserve it? As i realise it, you take the exams only if you wish and if you make it, why there is a problem?

 

[zar]

So why she doesn't deserve it?

I personally never had a problem with Troi or Janeway being promoted. I'm just saying there's no reason to think it has anything to do with sexism.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Surely it's sexism to insist that men might be sexist when they might not be?

However...

If the original post had been a question, that would have been a matter of context, however (barring missing punctuation?) it was certainly a statement.

But even then it's not sexist because of context (And i just reread the first post and I wonder where the fuck any question of sexism came from?).

Xerxes asked about where two other admirals had bogged off to, and why Janeway had moved to strategy from science, exploration, the Borg, or the DQ and how versed was she in the current political climate between Earth and Romulus...

Kathryn Janeway can't tell the difference between Romulans from 2370 and Romulans from 2351.

How long would it take you to tell the difference between Days of our Lives 1991 and Days of our Lives 2010? Okay, now imagine being asked to compare and date two disparate episodes of the Chinese Soap equivalent of days of Our Lives?

Romulans are not her bag baby.

 

[Maria]

Well, i hope that you react so strongly for the real life "injustices" too. You have your point of view, i have mine. Janeway will never come and say "this year between my return and nemesis i was involved with romulans by that way" or "i am not an admiral with specialty for romulans. they made me admiral because i brought that borg defend technology, because i made it alone, because.." or "hey, it's scifi, they do idiot things only to keep you anxious to see the end". So you understood that difference between the romulan of 2370 and the romulan of 2351?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, first off they are in the ass end of a centuries worth of exile according to the last episode of the first season of TNG, that any contact with Humans would have been very alarming for even the least militant Romulans that they would call the Human Catcher immediately .

The Rmoulans wore exactly the same uniforms in TNG which were exactly the same uniforms they still wore before in Enterprise, so what the frakk were the Romulans Kirk met wearing? Maybe it's like the opposite of when the Roundheads and Oliver Cromwell took over England in the 17 century?

But they kept saying how fantastically advanced Voyagers technology was... You do understand how indomitably arrogant a Romulan is that they would have had to have felt like a Visgoth confronting a steampunk to even comment on their non-primacy to any issue or achievement...

Janeway had to talk Telek down twice at least to promise him that she wasn't flying about in a next next next generation super Star Ship.

It's the same as showing some one from the 80s an Iphone and they try to fake being nonchalant about it.

...

Maria? This is my autopilot. My "strong reactions" are quite childish.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well, first off they are in the ass end of a centuries worth of exile according to the last episode of the first season of TNG

It was 40 years, which was contradicted repeatedly ("Yesterday's Enterprise" among others) and forgotten.

The Rmoulans wore exactly the same uniforms in TNG which were exactly the same uniforms they still wore before in Enterprise, so what the frakk were the Romulans Kirk met wearing?

Romulan uniforms. You don't really expect 250 years' hence to exactly resemble a television show from the 1960's? Or even the 2000's?

 

[JarodRussell]

This thread is sexist!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Of course it's sexist, but sexism has it's place and this might be it.

Jarod i expect most any movie ever set during World war II ever made for the next 10 thousand years to have articulate and accurate period costumes and until it happens I am curious as to what any given wardrobe department will conjour for WWIII...

We barely saw the bastard, but the Romulan in STVI the Undiscovered Country marching around the Khitomer Conference was wearing a TOSish (inspired?) uniform.

 

[Alex1939]

Wow. What gives the impression that Janeway is bipolar? The fact that she has a vagina?

Am I the only one who took this as a jab at her gender and found it offensive?

No, most of the Voyager diehards here will claim sexism at any criticism of Janeway.


Since I agreed with the poster that made the comment, for me it has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with character inconsistencies.