The absurdity of promoting Janeway to admiral

[Guy Gardener]

She was mother to a slave race which was only created to suffer immediate, constant and never ending vivisection until they were forced to commit genocide in selfdefence of their own denied pursuit of liberty. And this wasn't a one time thing in the case of the Hirogen (Concerning Flight and Critical Care come to mind if the bad guys weren't so quickly cockblocked, and were allowed to run with the ball.), since in that same episode Tuvok consoled Janeways guilt by assuring her that Starfleet would understand that they couldn't have gotten this far with out trading replicator technology to any unvetted species who would take it who had any resources they needed which they couldn't replicate... but remember season one and two when they moved heaven and earth to stop seska distributing replicator technology to the Kazon because it would alter the balance of power in the quadrant? People, there's a million fulcrums that woman left spinning like tops with her wholesale disavowment of the Prime Directive.

Jail.

That being said, I have no problem with a superior officer giving Picard orders since it happened all the time during the run of the show and it's his trade off for being awarded the responsibility of defending the federation and advancing science, and some of them were even men.

 

[Maria]

You know, all these years later I still don't understand why some Trekkies' underpants get all bunched up over this topic. I've tried to hypothesize, on occasion, as to why and I never seem to come to any conclusive decision.

Why is the fact that Janeway was promoted to Admiral so absurd?

Is it because Janeway's a woman?

Is it because she wasn't the captain of the Federation flagship?

Is it because you think Picard should have been promoted instead, as if Janeway somehow was competing for the admiral's bars with him and won?

And even if it is because of any of these things, so what? What's wrong with Janeway being promoted to admiral? Nobody seemed to mind Kirk being an Admiral, then a Captain, then an Admiral again ... and then a Captain again in the TOS films. Nobody seemed to mind Sisko being promoted from Commander to Captain. Nobody seemed to care when Riker was captain of the Enterprise for an episode. Why is it that Janeway's admiralty is such a polarizing, flickerpiss=inducing topic?

For fuck's sake, it was a cameo. A tip of the hat to Voyager fans who would go see the movie, lending some continuity to the thing and otherwise rather harmless in the grand scheme of things.

In short - stop thinking so hard about minor, trivial tidbits like this. You just wind up spending more time not liking it than anything else. And lord knows, we already have enough Trekkie assholes who excel at not liking stuff as it is.

I don't know if it's a coincidence but i have read excactly the same things about Troi being a full commander instead of the x man (or android). Of course almost everybody forgot that McCoy was an admiral even if we never saw him in command. That's the only absurdity. And i think that neither Kirk was so adherenced to the prime directive.. so why he became admiral?

 

[exodus]

I doubt many Voyager fans or Janeway fans would agree with that assessment.

Besides, again, who the fuck cares who gives orders to Picard? How many asshole, douchebag admirals did he deal with throughout the series? Why the hell are people still --STILL!!!-- bent out of shape over Wesley? I mean the kid was GONE after a few episodes in the fourth season! What the hell else do you want?

The very notion that Janeway being promoted, and thus giving orders to Picard somehow equates to her being "better" or his being "lesser" is strictly a creation of those fans --such as yourself, it seems-- is petulant, ridiculous, and ass-backwardly inane.

You want to talk about absurd? That's absurd.

Take some prozac and grow the hell up already.

Preach it!

 

[JarodRussell]

The reason I dislike the scene is: Small Universe Syndrom.


And then: what qualifications does a Captain that has been stranded 7 years in the Delta Quadrant have to become an Admiral that obviously has to deal with Alpha Quadrant politics? She's commanding Picard, so she's probably either commanding the part of the fleet the Enterprise belongs to, or dealing with Romulan-Earth relations. Both things I can't see. She's an expert on Borg and Delta Quadrant stuff. Not on local stuff.

 

[kimc]

She's an expert on Borg and Delta Quadrant stuff. Not on local stuff.

She also had years of experience in Starfleet before they were in the Delta quadrant which shouldn't be discounted. Also, one can argue that after the Dominion war Starfleet would want an admiral with some fresh viewpoints.

One of the main complaints made about admirals in general is that they don't understand what it's like to be a captain having to make decisions by the seat of your pants. That criticism would not apply to Janeway.

 

[JarodRussell]

She's an expert on Borg and Delta Quadrant stuff. Not on local stuff.

She also had years of experience in Starfleet before they were in the Delta quadrant which shouldn't be discounted. Also, one can argue that after the Dominion war Starfleet would want an admiral with some fresh viewpoints.

One of the main complaints made about admirals in general is that they don't understand what it's like to be a captain having to make decisions by the seat of your pants. That criticism would not apply to Janeway.

Though it's hard to sell someone who didn't fight in a major war in these days, and it would be hard to sell someone in the 24th century, too. Starfleet members would want to see someone who was a light in the Dominion War, not someone they don't know and that was on the other side of the galaxy, totally uninvolved in what was going on in the Federation for 7 years.

 

[Shatnertage]

I really don't see this as a problem. The thought process was probably like this:

Hmm...who can we get from one of the TV shows to do a quick cameo. Is Ryan available? No? OK. is Mulgrew available? Great. Oh, she can't be here when the rest of the cast is? Not a deal-breaker, we'll just have her to a telescreen shot. Won't take half a day.

 

[exodus]

She's an expert on Borg and Delta Quadrant stuff. Not on local stuff.

She also had years of experience in Starfleet before they were in the Delta quadrant which shouldn't be discounted. Also, one can argue that after the Dominion war Starfleet would want an admiral with some fresh viewpoints.

One of the main complaints made about admirals in general is that they don't understand what it's like to be a captain having to make decisions by the seat of your pants. That criticism would not apply to Janeway.

Though it's hard to sell someone who didn't fight in a major war in these days, and it would be hard to sell someone in the 24th century, too. Starfleet members would want to see someone who was a light in the Dominion War, not someone they don't know and that was on the other side of the galaxy, totally uninvolved in what was going on in the Federation for 7 years.

Only if you dismiss the fact that Janeways father was an Admiral, she admitted in "Counterpoint" that she was on a first name bases with most of the other Admirals in Starfleet. So she's been raised as an army brat and grew up in the lifestyle. Plus, wars aren't the only way to get promoted to Admiral, a good service record also does. Janeway has just that. Besides, Starfleet is about promoting peace. Ones service record during a war isn't the only deciding factor in a promotion and Starfleet members are all very aware of that.


Frankly, I can't understand how folks can watch a show for 7 years. See the accomplishments made by Janeway & the crew under her and still question why she got a promotion. Generally speaking IMO it just shows further irrational prejudice against Voyager simply for not liking it as much as the other Trek spin offs. Personal dislike doesn't negate any of the accomplishments made within the show itself.

 

[Maria]

She's an expert on Borg and Delta Quadrant stuff. Not on local stuff.

She also had years of experience in Starfleet before they were in the Delta quadrant which shouldn't be discounted. Also, one can argue that after the Dominion war Starfleet would want an admiral with some fresh viewpoints.

One of the main complaints made about admirals in general is that they don't understand what it's like to be a captain having to make decisions by the seat of your pants. That criticism would not apply to Janeway.

She has experience but not as captain. She had to deal alone with hostile species that noone had seen before and she did it, Romulans are like a game after all these borg,species 8472 etc. That proves that she has the full capacity to be an admiral. Personally i think that you are behaving like she stole the promotion from you... after all, it's not reality.. unfortunatelly.

 

[Udat]

We at least we got to see Janeway in a movie.

 

[kimc]

She's an expert on Borg and Delta Quadrant stuff. Not on local stuff.

She also had years of experience in Starfleet before they were in the Delta quadrant which shouldn't be discounted. Also, one can argue that after the Dominion war Starfleet would want an admiral with some fresh viewpoints.

One of the main complaints made about admirals in general is that they don't understand what it's like to be a captain having to make decisions by the seat of your pants. That criticism would not apply to Janeway.

Though it's hard to sell someone who didn't fight in a major war in these days, and it would be hard to sell someone in the 24th century, too. Starfleet members would want to see someone who was a light in the Dominion War, not someone they don't know and that was on the other side of the galaxy, totally uninvolved in what was going on in the Federation for 7 years.

She had battle experience - just not in the Dominion War. In "Prey" she tells Seven a story about a planet-side battle with the Cardassians she participated in so she had personal combat experience. Not to mention the battles she participated in while in the Delta quadrant.

 

[Akiraprise]

Take some prozac and grow the hell up already.

While I don't prescribe Prozac I do suggest taking one of these.

I do agree with everything you said, minus the last sentence. It's not unreasonable to see Janeway as Admiral. There could have been any number of programs started up due to Voyager's return that Janeway would have been qualified to be in charge of. DQ exploration, Borg countermeasures, and new defenses with the addition of the ablative armor to name a few. She could have had major dealings with the Romulans prior to Voyager's stint in the DQ and been put in charge of the peace talks for all we know. In the end it doesn't really matter. TPTB wanted to throw long time Trek fans an easter egg and chose the Janeway character to do it.

 

[SRFX]

I never really read much into this beyond:

- It was a nice cameo
- Janeway probably had enough of space travel after being stranded in the DQ for 7 years

Move along now.

 

[indolover]

The reason I dislike the scene is: Small Universe Syndrom.


And then: what qualifications does a Captain that has been stranded 7 years in the Delta Quadrant have to become an Admiral that obviously has to deal with Alpha Quadrant politics? She's commanding Picard, so she's probably either commanding the part of the fleet the Enterprise belongs to, or dealing with Romulan-Earth relations. Both things I can't see. She's an expert on Borg and Delta Quadrant stuff. Not on local stuff.

It shouldn't matter. Military promotions are about service record and performance, not field of expertise.

Again, she is a public heroine for traversing the Delta Quadrant, that is promotion-worthy behaviour in itself.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I just figured that Janeway was promoted to Chief of Starfleet Diplomatic Operations (or something like that). Heck, it's even possible that a position was newly-created just for her given her experience dealing with so many alien races in the Delta Quadrant.

And now that I think of it, wasn't the Enterprise's mission to Romulus in Nemesis supposed to be a diplomatic one in the beginning?

 

[Kelthaz]

I doubt many Voyager fans or Janeway fans would agree with that assessment.

Probably not. I don't completely agree with it either, but obviously Voyager fans or Janeway fans aren't the ones complaining about the cameo. Yes, I do enjoy Voyager and I enjoyed the scene in Nemesis (relative to the rest of Nemesis anyway). I think the cameo could have been much better written, but I enjoyed it for what it was. I'm simply playing devil's advocate here.

Look at it from the perspective of someone who hates Voyager. Nemesis took a bad character from an even worse show, brought them into a much better show, and had them one-up the beloved main character. That's annoying. You might as well have a scene where Neelix out-logics Spock or Porthos beats Worf in a fight. Yes, Janeway didn't beat Picard in anything, but outranking the man is enough.

The very notion that Janeway being promoted, and thus giving orders to Picard somehow equates to her being "better" or his being "lesser" is strictly a creation of those fans --such as yourself, it seems-- is petulant, ridiculous, and ass-backwardly inane.

They wrote a scene where the entire point was for Janeway to show up, give orders to Picard, mock his previous successes, and then leave. Not exactly a huge jump to make.

Also, Nemesis sucks. Fans tend to nitpick stuff from movies that suck more than movies that are good. If the Uhura fan dance had appeared in Wrath of Khan instead of Final Frontier would it be as widely hated? Probably not.

 

[Oso Blanco]

I love crossovers, and I wish there had been more between TNG, DS9 and Voyager. And I am perfectly okay with Janeway being an Admiral ... however, a Three-Pip-Admiral? In such a short time? That's what makes that cameo scene a little awkward!

 

[SPCTRE]

I love crossovers, and I wish there had been more between TNG, DS9 and Voyager. And I am perfectly okay with Janeway being an Admiral ... however, a Three-Pip-Admiral? In such a short time? That's what makes that cameo scene a little awkward!

Yup, it certainly makes it a little hard to suspend disbelief.

On the other hand, I didn't realize that detail until much, much later, so I was perfectly okay with her cameo. I actually rather liked the friendly banter between the two, it never felt like she was one-upping Picard or ordering him around in any way - she was basically just relaying orders.

I don't get how anyone could get riled up about this

 

[doubleohfive]

Yes, Janeway didn't beat Picard in anything, but outranking the man is enough.

Herein lies the problem with most Trekkies. No, it's not "enough." Not in the real world, not in the fictional world, and certainly not in any measurable way that really matters, beyond the warped sense of propriety held by a few loud-mouthed, rabble-rousing nerds.

And, Kelthaz, for the record - my apologies to you if I sounded harsh in my earlier reply to you. Devil's Advocate is never fun part to play for precisely this reason.

 

[zar]

Frankly, I can't understand how folks can watch a show for 7 years. See the accomplishments made by Janeway & the crew under her and still question why she got a promotion.

Everyone keeps talking about those 7 years as if it's all she ever did, but I like to think those years drove her slightly mad and don't represent what she was like before. Wasn't Voyager a state of the art ship at the time? She must have done something to earn that command. And Nemesis happens a year after she returns; we have no idea what happened in that time. The promotion could easily have nothing to do with anything that was seen on the show.