The absurdity of promoting Janeway to admiral

[at Quark's]

By "bypass" don't you mean "butcher by the thousand"?

To paraphrase HRH herself (or actually, her recreation):

Bypass... butcher ....why quibble with semantics ?

Though to be fair, it seems that the Swarm wouldn't have been content with simply escorting her to their border (and perhaps exact a small fine), after she trespassed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

To be fair, the Swarmies made it very clear that Janeway's crew would be turned inside out if Voyager entered their space.

Yes, it was Neelix who told the story about the Swarms definition of lieniency, but it was still a valuable piece of information that Janeway would have taken at face value.

HA!

Scientific Method!

Same thing!

 

[at Quark's]

It's an interesting question. It's true they didn't hide the consequences, and Janeway knew (or should have known) what she was getting into.

But does sovereign nation x have the right to dismember people and subject them to other horrible torture, for (in our eyes) relatively trivial offenses (such as trespassing through their territory without the intention of spying, or littering the streets, to name something)?

On earth, it seems we increasingly tend to not accept that. At least, the West doesn't. I'm not sure there is a formal legal basis for that, though (e.g. a human rights treaty signed).

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

None of the above. It's because it was a major case of Shilling the Wesley. Remember those scenes where Wesley would out-smart the highly trained members of the Enterprise and you just wanted to smack the little twerp? Well, that's why fans hate Janeway getting promoted above Picard. In order words the bipolar captain of the somewhat despised Voyager giving orders to Captain Picard is very off-putting.

No way, it's totally because she's a woman. True story.

It has nothing to do with the fact that she was an absolutely abysmal, unlikable captain who committed numerous crimes (both present and future; remember, her coming back in time would have been in the logs) all to save her little crew. It's purely because she has breasts and a vagina.

 

[soornge]

having completed the whole of voyager originally i would have agreed maybe not promote her : in regard to being promoted over licard against the borg have already stated before in this forum that it makes internal sense to the situation: also picard has a hostory of turning down promotion: also dont forget picard was responsible for killing kirk some one had to be upset about that and lastly and newly having finisjed voyager janeway demosntrates consistently she is willing to randomly abandon anything for success of what she wants plus she came back with a lot of borg tech amd tactics

 

[LJones41]

having completed the whole of voyager originally i would have agreed maybe not promote her : in regard to being promoted over licard against the borg have already stated before in this forum that it makes internal sense to the situation: also picard has a hostory of turning down promotion: also dont forget picard was responsible for killing kirk some one had to be upset about that and lastly and newly having finisjed voyager janeway demosntrates consistently she is willing to randomly abandon anything for success of what she wants plus she came back with a lot of borg tech amd tactics

Wow. Sisko manipulated the Romulans into the Dominion War and he's never condemned for this? Picard's ridiculous handling of Ro Lauren and his hissy fit in "First Contact"? God knows how many times Kirk and Archer screwed up. But Janeway is a woman, which makes her a target of the sexist fanboys.

 

[soornge]

Wow. Sisko manipulated the Romulans into the Dominion War and he's never condemned for this? Picard's ridiculous handling of Ro Lauren and his hissy fit in "First Contact"? God knows how many times Kirk and Archer screwed up. But Janeway is a woman, which makes her a target of the sexist fanboys.

how am i sexist for saying the promition make sense : i am confused?

 

[Guy Gardener]

You get a medal for doing one heroic act, meanwhile you get promoted for continuous competence.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Seriously, all capitains of Starfleet we know, screwed up at one point or another of their mission.
As for the Admiral's promotion, if I remember, one was offered to Kirk but he chose to refuse it to keep commanding his own vessel and to remain independent. Picard
have also been offered also a promotion but certainly refused it for the same reason than Kirk. Sisko chose another fate. As for Janeway, well, we know that she was promoted to the admiralty and assigned to Starfleet Command but we really don't if it was immediately after her return from the Delta Quadrant and even if it was, she accomplished more in 7 years - where she and her crew were stranded in an unknown and hostile quadrant - more than most captains and even, some admirals, have lived in a career. Of course, mistakes she has committed during this long journey but she brought her crew and her ship safe and sound despite some losses, but a better knowledge of the Delta Quadrant and Borgs too and some alliances with new species.
I trully think that it's all these parameters which convinced Admirals to offer her this promotion (that and the guarantee that she won't lose her ship and her crew again ) and after 7 years far from her family she is very close (her sister, Phoebe, and her mother, Gretchen -> cf Jeri Taylor's Mosaic), it seems normal to see her trying to settle in and sober up, in staying on Earth as seeing as nothing could top what she lived in Delta Quadrant!

Plus, if Chakotay, Seven or even the Doctor needs her (sorry but I still don't buy the idea of the Federation pardonning and rehabilitating easily the ex-Maquis leader and the mistrust regarding Seven, the still half-Borg young lady, would take some time before fading totally away. As for the Doctor, I see him keep fighting to see his rights to exist as a sentient hologram recognized), it would be easier to protect them in an Admiral's position than if she is a capitain always in mission somewhere in space.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kirk accepted his promotion.

Hated it.

Then got demoted for stealing whales.

 

[soornge]

Seriously, all capitains of Starfleet we know, screwed up at one point or another of their mission.
As for the Admiral's promotion, if I remember, one was offered to Kirk but he chose to refuse it to keep commanding his own vessel and to remain independent. Picard
have also been offered also a promotion but certainly refused it for the same reason than Kirk. Sisko chose another fate. As for Janeway, well, we know that she was promoted to the admiralty and assigned to Starfleet Command but we really don't if it was immediately after her return from the Delta Quadrant and even if it was, she accomplished more in 7 years - where she and her crew were stranded in an unknown and hostile quadrant - more than most captains and even, some admirals, have lived in a career. Of course, mistakes she has committed during this long journey but she brought her crew and her ship safe and sound despite some losses, but a better knowledge of the Delta Quadrant and Borgs too and some alliances with new species.
I trully think that it's all these parameters which convinced Admirals to offer her this promotion (that and the guarantee that she won't lose her ship and her crew again ) and after 7 years far from her family she is very close (her sister, Phoebe, and her mother, Gretchen -> cf Jeri Taylor's Mosaic), it seems normal to see her trying to settle in and sober up, in staying on Earth as seeing as nothing could top what she lived in Delta Quadrant!

Plus, if Chakotay, Seven or even the Doctor needs her (sorry but I still don't buy the idea of the Federation pardonning and rehabilitating easily the ex-Maquis leader and the mistrust regarding Seven, the still half-Borg young lady, would take some time before fading totally away. As for the Doctor, I see him keep fighting to see his rights to exist as a sentient hologram recognized), it would be easier to protect them in an Admiral's position than if she is a capitain always in mission somewhere in space.

politics makes strange bedfellows and no atheists in fox hole : i just mean extreme situations accelerate bonds . i also think that the whole marquis thing was more like a civil war type atmosphere : i think the ifea is that supporting the dominion wasa federation decision on a political level not a a decision that most supported then the choice became support the cause or support starfleet . i think it was supposed to be a metaphor for unpopular wars

 

[Paradise City]

I think if you become an Admiral you're in the doghouse. "Kicked upstairs" I believe is the phrase. Look at all the dodgy Admirals we see. All failed Captains I say.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

politics makes strange bedfellows and no atheists in fox hole : i just mean extreme situations accelerate bonds . i also think that the whole marquis thing was more like a civil war type atmosphere : i think the ifea is that supporting the dominion wasa federation decision on a political level not a a decision that most supported then the choice became support the cause or support starfleet . i think it was supposed to be a metaphor for unpopular wars

If I remember well, this is the Federation which decided to consider the members of the Maquis as outlaws (because they offered an armed opposition to the border treaty which was signed between the Federation & the Cardassian Empire, which authorized this lattest to colonnise planets they wanted) and imprisonned them (that's why Janeway was sent in pursuit of Val Jean, in the beginning of Caretaker).
IF the governements of the Federation decided to pardon Chakotay (and his friends), how will they explain to their new ally that, though they were agreed to counteract all opponents, a dozen of them would be left free because of their involvment on board of Voyager? Plus, why will the Federation believe that Chakotay, Torres, Allaya, etc...won't be a danger in the future, especially if the organisation accepts the "unacceptable", to gain other allies -> I'm pretty sure that none abandoned their convictions, even after 7 years stranded in another quadrant..
-> cf Renegades.

 

[2takesfrakes]

All Chakotay need do is save the Earth, along with Paris and his charming wife. That act, alone, forgives many sins in STAR TREK.

 

[exocomp]

I think they wanted to give Mulgrew a cameo appearance in that movie and couldn't think of another way to do it.

 

[stardream]

Keep in mind that one of the former Maquis is now the daughter-in-law of an admiral and mother of his granddaughter. Sticky situation.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Keep in mind that one of the former Maquis is now the daughter-in-law of an admiral and mother of his granddaughter. Sticky situation.

Absolutely, I forgot to mention in my argument that ONLY B' Elena Torres would manage to make it out thanks to her acquaintances with Admiral Paris, as seeing as she married his son, Tom, and is the mother of her granddaughter, Miral, BUT seeing B'Elena's passionate character, she - supported by Tom - would be capable of creating a diplomatic incident, by supporting openly her friends, if needed (andto risk imprisonment too)...from where the utility to have somebody as Admiral Janeway in her circle of closed Starfleet friends - > Starfleet could fire one admiral (Owen Paris), not two (Paris and Janeway, especially with her CV)!

 

[Papermoon]

Ok correct me if I'm wrong here but it seems strange that after spending seven years together they would choose not to serve together again? Janeway becomes Admiral, fine, but that means the others get new postings right? Sounds like a shame in some ways...

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Ok correct me if I'm wrong here but it seems strange that after spending seven years together they would choose not to serve together again? Janeway becomes Admiral, fine, but that means the others get new postings right? Sounds like a shame in some ways...

Not necessarily. I guess that :
- Tuvok:, once cured and rested, would accept a new commission ... at Starfleet HQ (I can' t imagine him do not want to work again with/for Janeway -> they have a long friendship/hostory! ),
- Harry Kim, finally promoted full Lt (I know that in some fanfictions, he is even promoted immediately Capitain..., which is quite stupid, IMHO) could have a new commission aboard another ship.
- Tom & B'Elena, known for their skills in piloting and engineer could opt for taking part in the improvement of equipment for Starfleet, as civilians.
- Chakotay , if he managed to be pardonned, could teach or do research for the private sector -> if Starfleet in 24th century works like the US Navy/Marine of 20th and 21th centuries*, once you resign from your commission - what Chakotay did to join the Maquis -, it is impossible to come back! Furthermore, in view of his past (he was one of the leaders of Maquis, not just a just a underling who would have obeyed to orders, like Torres or Allaya), I don't think that Starfleet would accept to reintegrate him and still less to confide to him the command of Voyager or another new vessel*. It would not be good for the publicity, unlike Janeway, who is considered as a heroin after to have return her ship and her crew from DQ!
- Seven could work as a civilian member for the Federation and/or for Starfleet to improve their knowledges on Borgs or something like that.
- the Doctor, could work for Starfleet Medical Dpt, if he managed to convince that his knowledge and his experience could be very useful for the Federation and Starfleet, could

(* I know that in some fanfinctions and novels (K; Beyer; C; Golden), Chakotay is pardonned and promoted capitain of... Voyager, what seems to me unthinkable in view of the functioning and the policy in the armies -> cf tv series, JAG, for example)

You see that there is a life after the Delta Quadrant!

 

[Sophie74656]

Ok correct me if I'm wrong here but it seems strange that after spending seven years together they would choose not to serve together again? Janeway becomes Admiral, fine, but that means the others get new postings right? Sounds like a shame in some ways...

Spoilers

In the relaunch novels Janeway, Chakotay, Harry, The Doctor, Tom and B'Elanna are all serving in the Voyager fleet together