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The Absurdity of Borders in Space

...It's a whole different argument whether borders in general are ridiculous. They are typical of certain species here on Earth, but the concept isn't recognized by the majority of species. Most animals and plants only recognize the idea of personal space, even when they live communally. The benefits and enforceability of a border always depend on one's sensory capabilities, one's motive capabilities or reach, and one's dependency on the territory to be defended. And the latter are defined not only by the biology/nature of the entity itself (be it a critter or an empire), but only by those of its opponents and competitors.

Trek opponents and competitors are basically identical to humans in most respects, so one would expect them to share the border fetish with us. Not all of them, of course, but the regular fare like Klingons and Romulans at least.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Is it not absurd to be arguing about borders in the first place? Borders are absurd even on this planet when you get down to it.
 
Borders on Earth are about control, of resources in particular but of the country and its people in general. Or at least symbols of this extremely important (and very practical) issue.

The point still remains that borders in interstellar space literally delineate nothing. One of the reason Trek's impossible sensor tech was created was as a necessary plot mechanism in quasimilitary stories. The supposed drama of a struggle over nothing only exists if the viewer simply accepts the absurd idea that space borders are somehow the same as borders on Earth. But most people would insist that there be some sort of resources in the water before there's a fight over whose ocean it is.
 
After the two World Wars, I don't think anybody could argue that with a straight face.

WWI and WWII naval actions were all about control of empty water. No resource inherent in the seas was coveted (save for frankly sub-industrial levels of fishing that was never a true target in naval action), and indeed many at the time couldn't have imagined that sea some day would be a resource similar to earth, a source of localized mineral riches. In the World Wars, the sea was only good for travel, and travel is what the naval action was all about.

In that sense, most everything about the Trek portrayal of space warfare rings true. You fight to keep the enemy at an arm's length, even if the arm is flailing through thin air.

No doubt there would be subtle differences in doctrine there. Napoleonic sailors might not recognize the strategies of today's Admirals, even if they fathomed the new tactics brought about by new weapons. But certain dramatic basics might remain constant enough to provide us with familiar types of sadistic-voyeuristic violent entertainment...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Borders on Earth are about control, of resources in particular but of the country and its people in general. Or at least symbols of this extremely important (and very practical) issue.

The point still remains that borders in interstellar space literally delineate nothing. One of the reason Trek's impossible sensor tech was created was as a necessary plot mechanism in quasimilitary stories. The supposed drama of a struggle over nothing only exists if the viewer simply accepts the absurd idea that space borders are somehow the same as borders on Earth. But most people would insist that there be some sort of resources in the water before there's a fight over whose ocean it is.


If I were a Federation citizen, I'd want Starfleet to fight over the "nothing" between Sol and 40 Eridani rather than let the Klingons cruise around there at leisure.

And if I were a Starfleet admiral, I'd have the sensor reach to notice when the Klingons are poking around, and (presumably) the ships to go chase them out.


Marian
 
In fact, the USN could plausibly control the entire Pacific shipping if that were in its political interests. The means would have to be somewhat crude: rather than carefully identify every ship, USN forces would do wisely to enforce a state of affairs where any shipping that isn't overtly and actively submissive to US rule will be blindly fired at, with Harpoons from patrol aircraft on the open ocean, with more economic means while close to the coasts. Monitoring and control of nearly all Pacific ports of worth would be trivially easy, and those ports that remained outside direct control could be nuked to submission.

I see no major showstoppers with the Klingon Empire controlling its volume of space in like manner. A couple of thousand starships would be available, each with a sensor range measured in dozens of lightyears at least, and with the speed to reach targets within that sensor range in a matter of hours. Even if the control of Klingon territory weren't 100% perfect, the ramifications of getting caught would deter most violators. And most opponents would expect the Federation to act in a similar manner, even if they spoke unusually softly while carrying their considerably big Starfleet stick.

Timo Saloniemi

The idea of literally a trillion trillions sensors is impractical.they would be a navigation hazard to populate all of space at a rate of a 1 cubic metre sized sensor probe per 1 cubic kilometre self sustaining sensor cube.

think of the pollution of producing them.you would need to carve up whole
planets to populate all of your empire with self sustaining sensor drones..and the logistics of putting them in position and processing all the data from them.

the best thing to do would be to abandon fixed borders altogether and declare that all space from the center of your star/sun with a radius of 1 light year is yours.

as th star/sun moves around your boundary would move around too.


every star would thus be a huge globule of space with insterstices which would be free from territorial claim.



imagine a crate filled with big balls.

spaces between the balls which are spherical could be navigated and ALLOW routes through your empire to any other part of the galaxy without violation.

within the ball is a star.the radius of the ball is 1 light year which is more than sufficent room for you to expand yourself into.

anyone could travel through your empire as along as no violation of your spherical 1 light year radius occurred.


this would remove the need for patrols and sensors as 1 spherical cubic light year would be easier to monitor then many hundreds of pubic light years.
 
That would be fine in a universe where starships were a tad slower. But allowing enemy ships between your star systems, within a lightyear or so, when they can pounce at you in a matter of hours or minutes across such distances, would not be politically viable.

And Trek sensors obviously have a range much in excess of one lightyear. Starships are shown aware of enemy starship movement dozens of ly away, perhaps because warp drives glow like beacons in all sorts of exotic FTL bands. Fixed sensors can peer across even longer distances, and in TNG "Parallels", a subspace telescope is shown gathering near-realtime information specifically from the distance of these "implausible" Trek borders. That is, it spies on Mars from somewhere in the vicinity of the Cardassian border...

So the tech is assuredly there to monitor distant borders and then send interceptors. Just as assuredly, the various players are shown incapable of mounting a constant physical vigil at the borders, and often only a single starship is available for intercept. But the intercept does happen, and without the benefit of cloaks, it doesn't seem anybody could truly "penetrate" a border even when there is no Starship Troopers or Fifth Element chicken fence erected across it.

Timo Saloniemi
 
WWI didn't have but one old fashioned naval battle, Jutland. German attacks on UK shipping were stymied by the simple adoption of convoy tactics, leaving U-boats first to roam about looking for victims, then to face close in defenders.

Improved technology made the U-boats more formidable but advances in sonar and good old convoy tactics won out again. None of the fleet actions in WWII were about control of empty water. Battles in the Coral Sea and Leyte Gulf were in close waters. At Midway, despite Magic intercepts tipping off the US admirals, planes went desperately searching for their enemies across wide expanses of water. The Japanese were unfortunate that their fleet was found while their planes were out looking. But the goal of the Japanese action was to seize the islands of Midway, not hundreds of miles of Pacific Ocean water. Pearl Harbor of course was a straightforward counterforce attack.

Is the point in citing these irrelevant examples to imply that borders in space are equivalent to radar sweeping dozens or hundreds of miles from islands like Hawaii? The thing is, that the scales are preposterously wrong. Borders in space a la Trek is like the US claiming that the defense of Pearl Harbor demands "borders" in the Atlantic and Indian Oceans. Except that analogy still slights the vastness of interstellar space.

Again, the magic sensors---which are, hard as it is to grasp, theoretically impossible in a way that FTL/time travel/transporters aren't!---were imagined as a device to put foolish war melodrama on screen.

By the way, as I recall Voyager, a light year a day was basically standard rapid traveling speed. Saying the Federation needs borders in space for defense purposes is like saying that the US air/sea border needs to be drawn so that no missile or plane would be within 24 hrs. flight! Really, the absurdity of Trek's space borders should be apparent.
 
WWI didn't have but one old fashioned naval battle, Jutland. German attacks on UK shipping were stymied by the simple adoption of convoy tactics, leaving U-boats first to roam about looking for victims, then to face close in defenders.

Eventually. But early on in the conflict, if you wanted to cross the Atlantic on say... The Lusitania, you were warned in advance by the polite German military that you did so at your own peril. Sounds like someone wanted control over vast areas between points A's and B's.

Improved technology made the U-boats more formidable but advances in sonar and good old convoy tactics won out again. None of the fleet actions in WWII were about control of empty water. Battles in the Coral Sea and Leyte Gulf were in close waters. At Midway, despite Magic intercepts tipping off the US admirals, planes went desperately searching for their enemies across wide expanses of water. The Japanese were unfortunate that their fleet was found while their planes were out looking. But the goal of the Japanese action was to seize the islands of Midway, not hundreds of miles of Pacific Ocean water. Pearl Harbor of course was a straightforward counterforce attack.
Except that had the Japanese taken Midway island it would have given them control over hundreds of miles of otherwise empty "Pacific Ocean water;" most notably, that expanse between the western Pacific, which they largely controlled, and Midway, which they may have eventually used as a stepping stone for a full invasion of Hawaii. In this instance, we can't ignore the fact that traveling on water is a resource unto itself. The entire Pacific campaign, indeed any traditional form of war whether it be on sea or land, was and is about taking strategic points that give strategic domination over areas that connect other strategic points. Midway Island was a strategic point. It is why the U.S. built its Naval Air base there and one reason why the Japanese wanted it. But any strategic point unto itself will eventually be vulnerable if it runs out of resources. In fact that is the difference between a siege and a campaign. Do I want an island castle and a moat, or do I want huge areas of land with multiple fortifications so that if one should become more vulnerable, another could come to my aid?


Is the point in citing these irrelevant examples to imply that borders in space are equivalent to radar sweeping dozens or hundreds of miles from islands like Hawaii? The thing is, that the scales are preposterously wrong.
Wrong? What is wrong about "scale?" Conceptually, scale is one of the most flexible and amazing aspects of the creative imagination. Imagining a grain of sand on O'ahu as a thriving planet with a golf ball sized star ten feet away, and another civilization headquartered on an equally tiny spec on Honshu or even Midway is not inconceivable. It only takes imagination, which when it comes down to it... is all borders really are.

Borders in space a la Trek is like the US claiming that the defense of Pearl Harbor demands "borders" in the Atlantic and Indian Oceans. Except that analogy still slights the vastness of interstellar space.
Huh? I don't get this connection at all.

Again, the magic sensors---which are, hard as it is to grasp, theoretically impossible in a way that FTL/time travel/transporters aren't!---were imagined as a device to put foolish war melodrama on screen.
Magic sensors? Subspace sensors are theoretically impossible in a way different from the theoretically impossible FTL/time travel/transporters? I think we are dancing on the head of a pin here.

By the way, as I recall Voyager, a light year a day was basically standard rapid traveling speed. Saying the Federation needs borders in space for defense purposes is like saying that the US air/sea border needs to be drawn so that no missile or plane would be within 24 hrs. flight! Really, the absurdity of Trek's space borders should be apparent.
Voyager's one light year a day motif is based on the notion that it is totally
alone, in unexplored space, on the other side of the galaxy. As I understood it, warp engines in Voyager's day only allow for so much stress on their components. Voyager had a long crossing and keeping that limit allowed them to travel with less stress for greater periods of time. If they were lucky they would come across some form of resource or new friendly ally to help them on their journey. But as far as I could tell, they were on their own for most of that journey, and one light year a day is just their way making sure they could go the furtherest they could on the limited resources at their disposal.

On more than one occasion however they had to do more in emergency situations and were able to compensate for it eventually. A ship in Federation space, would have a lot more resources to repair and replenish the ship to operational standards. Therefore, any ship that had to do extreme velocities to meet, head on, an emergency 4 light years away and as quickly as possible, might have to put into starbase after the encounter, but the immediate threat could still be met.
 
By the way, as I recall Voyager, a light year a day was basically standard rapid traveling speed. Saying the Federation needs borders in space for defense purposes is like saying that the US air/sea border needs to be drawn so that no missile or plane would be within 24 hrs. flight! Really, the absurdity of Trek's space borders should be apparent.
Voyager's one light year a day motif is based on the notion that it is totally
alone, in unexplored space, on the other side of the galaxy. As I understood it, warp engines in Voyager's day only allow for so much stress on their components. Voyager had a long crossing and keeping that limit allowed them to travel with less stress for greater periods of time. If they were lucky they would come across some form of resource or new friendly ally to help them on their journey. But as far as I could tell, they were on their own for most of that journey, and one light year a day is just their way making sure they could go the furtherest they could on the limited resources at their disposal.
A light year a day?

I'm not a Voyager fan (and missed quite a few episodes), but I was under the impression that they were about 75,000 light years from home and that it would take them (on an unobstructed and unassisted journey) about 75 years to make that voyage. So wouldn't that mean that they had estimated about 1,000 light years per year, or 2.74 light years a day?

Maybe that all changed in the later episodes, but I sure don't recall them making estimates of more than 205 years to get back home. :eek:


ticktock said:
as th star/sun moves around your boundary would move around too.
I still find your naive notion of how fast stars move relative to the rest of space quite amusing. If one was to believe that the stars are changing positions as quickly as you seem to believe, then why have the stars seemed fixed in the sky for most of recorded human history?

The problem isn't with you, of course, it is with how that information on this stuff is presented to the general public. You most likely read somewhere that stars are moving really fast (relative to what we are used to) and started trying to apply that really fast to a model which is so large that your original really fast is roughly equivalent to geologic movement on the Earth (I was, after all, the first person to put forward that example here).

If you are truly interested in this subject... go back to school and learn about it. I was interested in this stuff when growing up, so I spent years and years in school learning about it. I was very interested in General Relativity (which most grad students in physics might only get as a semester course that skips most of the math), so I spent three years learning the foundational mathematics of it so that I wouldn't just have a passing knowledge of the subject.

If you are truly passionate about this topic, and want to prove us all wrong, go and really learn it.

But be warned, what you'll end up finding out in the end is that you've made some really bad assumptions here.
 
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^^^Very nice! Okay, Trek's basically saying the US needs to put it's air/sea border eight hours' flight away! I think that would put it some where off a beach in Lisbon?

Midway was needed as a transition point through the vastness of the Pacific, not to control all the empty water around it.

Incidentally, the law of the sea I think really does assign territorial rights or belligerent rights to nations that really do control the waters, as opposed to occasionally snapping up a traveler.
 
Again, the magic sensors---which are, hard as it is to grasp, theoretically impossible in a way that FTL/time travel/transporters aren't!---were imagined as a device to put foolish war melodrama on screen.
I don't understand this obsession with dubbing starship-style sensors as ``magic'', whereas somehow warp drive isn't. Current off-the-shelf sensor technology available in 2007 would be adequate to detect the maneuvering thrusters on the Space Shuttle from as far away as the asteroid belt, and if we were looking at the Space Shuttle's main engines (not the solid rocket boosters, by the way), we'd be able to detect them firing from as far away as Pluto is. (Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.science/msg/54f4d01ceba2eb51 )

That vastly higher-power engines would be detectable from farther away by sensors with three centuries' more development seems pretty much inevitable. Yes, you have to suppose some way to send and receive data faster than light in order to have a subspace radar reaching out dozens of light-years usefully, but if you accept warp drive and subspace radio, you've already bought that ticket.

(ObJamesNicoll: Nicoll's Law on Stealth in Space: It is a truth universally acknowledged that any thread that begins by pointing out why stealth in space is impossible will rapidly turn into a thread focusing on schemes whereby stealth in space might be achieved. Of course, this is based on real-world physics; Star Trek allows the supposition of schemes by which vehicles are cloaked or obscure sensors, regardless of thermodynamic laws.)
 
I don't understand this obsession with dubbing starship-style sensors as ``magic'', whereas somehow warp drive isn't. Current off-the-shelf sensor technology available in 2007 would be adequate to detect the maneuvering thrusters on the Space Shuttle from as far away as the asteroid belt, and if we were looking at the Space Shuttle's main engines (not the solid rocket boosters, by the way), we'd be able to detect them firing from as far away as Pluto is. (Reference: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.science/msg/54f4d01ceba2eb51 )

That vastly higher-power engines would be detectable from farther away by sensors with three centuries' more development seems pretty much inevitable. Yes, you have to suppose some way to send and receive data faster than light in order to have a subspace radar reaching out dozens of light-years usefully, but if you accept warp drive and subspace radio, you've already bought that ticket.
The idea that we have some sort of incredible sensors today has a totally hollow ring to it. There are thousands of near Earth objects which we do not know about (all within range of these sensors) and we have lost a number of our own spacecraft in recent years just heading for Mars.

And thrusters and full on engines of the shuttles are but the tiniest fraction of a geologic eruptions, yet we only find out about eruptions on the moons of Jupiter or Saturn when we are practically on top of them. So while I'm sure this thing might be able to detect something if we know exactly where and when something is happening, that is a long way from sensing the unknown and warning us about it.

If you've got some guy trying to sell something... don't take the sales pitch! I have been a fan of Kip Thorne for years, and jumped at the chance to meet him when he came to speak at UCSD about 16 years ago. Sadly, the talk was actually a sales pitch for a gravitational wave telescope. Needless to say, I was very disappointed.

Until some technology is in active (successful) use, it is still a lot of theory. People have sunk billions of dollars into missile defense since the 1980s and always promised that the brake through was just around the corner.
 
Nebusj, I'm glad I'm not the only one who browses through that Google Group. Some of those discussions are absolute gold. Have you seen this one?

On a side note, there was an error in the calculation, so the main engines and SRBs are detectable from 'only' 6 billion km.
 
That vastly higher-power engines would be detectable from farther away by sensors with three centuries' more development seems pretty much inevitable.

Robert "Mars Direct" Zubrin discussed that very subject in his 1995 ASP paper, Detection of Extraterrestrial Civilizations via the Spectral Signature of Advanced Interstellar Spacecraft (PDF).

TGT
 
In Star Trek much is made of border violations by the feds,romulans,klingons and others.

Much is made of "this is our border you have crossed".

i put it to you that the idea is absurd.

everything in space is MOVING relative to everything else.

a planet is moving around a star which is moving around the galactic center and the galaxy is moving around the center of gravity of a galaxy cluster which is moving away also...


these speeds range from a few km/sec to many hundreds of km per sec and every star and planet is moving at a different speed.

thus the idea of a fixed border is absurd.

in fact any border defined by stars or planets would be a fluid border which waxes and wanes,being ill defined due to no fixed defining elements, depending on the speed of the defining stars and planets...


so any 3 dimensional space or empire could not be rigidly defined at all as the defining elements are not fixed but are moving both relative to each other and also to some non-specifiable point of origin,presumably the big bang from which all matter is expanding away from but which cannot be located as space itself is expanding,thus the point being no rigid boundary could be defined in space due to the multiplicity of aforementioned reasons.

It does not make sense that there are vast areas of space that are claimed by any side. I can understand planetary systems belonging to one government or another but not the vast distances in between. Planets should be viewed as island territories and the space in between as international waters.

Also, I think that it would make for much better story lines if there were no vast, land-like borders.
 
^^^Very nice! Okay, Trek's basically saying the US needs to put it's air/sea border eight hours' flight away! I think that would put it some where off a beach in Lisbon?

Which should already tell you quite a bit. The current US intent is to place it at Poland and the Czech Republic, after all. The US has to do that, because borders anywhere closer to home would be inefficient in guaranteeing homeland safety.

Of course, the analogy to Trek is misleading, because here on Earth we're talking about the necessity of extending the borders of the nation across those of other nations. And the very point of the Trek debate is that the various empires would be extending their borders across space that is not contested by others.

In contrast, I don't really get the point of all those trivia facts about WWI or WWII. Where amidst all that clutter did you ever support the notion that the fighting was not about the control of empty water? Midway for one was all about empty water (to be used for purposes of traffic) and nothing else, as there was nothing else out there. Hell, the whole Japanese war effort in the eastward direction was about the control of empty water, for the purposes of forming a (resourcewise worthless) buffer zone. A perfect analogy to the necessity of maximizing one's control of space in interstellar politics and combat.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I wasn't the one who brought up the red herring of WWI and WWII!

The Japanese project of a massive buffer zone of empty ocean failed! It failed because a big bunch of nothing is still nothing.

And missile "defense" based in Poland and the Czech Republic is an aggressive posture aimed at Russia.

Since all these absurd arguments are symbolic of current politics, there is no point in continuing further.
 
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