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That's the Best They Could Come Up With?

For the record not every trek fan would be familiar with the original series

And the ST movies aren't made for "the fans". We are about 10% of the intended audience. Less than 1% buy the tie-in merchandise.

The ST movies are made to attract members of the general public.

I don't like my "beloved" characters getting messed with.They sure haven't gotten ANY of mine in the theater or DVD!

Still got your attention, though. And any negativity you generated may even have stirred up some curiosity in new attendees to the movie. ;)

And yet, there was so much fan service in JJ's Trek that it boggles the mind. From the Enterprise herself, which was very reminiscent of the movie version, to the extremely faithful uniforms, effects and even the light that played across Pike's face when he sat in the Captain's chair. When I left the theater for the first time after seeing Trek '09, I was stuck at just how much fun it was. Kirk, Spock and McCoy were there on the big screen, having a big adventure, with their tongue planted firmly-in-cheek, just as they were in the sixties.

This movie was a love letter to fans of the original series that also managed to engage the general movie-going public to the tune of over two hundred and fifty million dollars. No other Trek incarnation has even come close.

So yeah, if they've decided to make a movie with their version of Khan, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
 
When I left the theater for the first time after seeing Trek '09, I was stuck at just how much fun it was. Kirk, Spock and McCoy were there on the big screen, having a big adventure, with their tongue planted firmly-in-cheek, just as they were in the sixties.

I'm with you!

I have maintained my avid interest in ST, and ploughed through much of VOY and early ENT, with perhaps misguided loyalty, hoping I'd start loving the new stuff again, and was rewarded by being very happy with Season Four of ENT. I had come into ST fandom after seeing ST:TMP (which I loved!), but it was a confusing time to be a brand new ST fan, because most people I met in 1980 had their own reasons for loathing aspects of TMP.

I admit, I was also already very open to JJ's 2009 take on ST because I'd really enjoyed most of "Lost". And "Cloverfield" (which a group of us went to see on premiere night, mainly for the ST trailer that was rumoured to be on the front end of most prints. It was!). Even though JJ had had a negative reaction to TMP (at the Smithsonian premiere), I was excited that we'd both had ST enter our lives at the same time.

Attending a sneak preview night (and a premiere night a week later) of JJ's 2009 movie - with several extremely jaded ST friends, some of whom had dropped out of active fandom, in disgust, towards the end of TNG's run, and the beginning of DS9 (several of them had vowed they were "done with Trek") - it was very satisfying to me that they, too, loved JJ's movie for its combination of fun, renewal and nostalgia. As did, it seemed, the entire cinema. Ditto a "full house" IMAX screening - several weeks after the original opening.

Earlier, a friend had been at the Sydney Opera House gala premiere - at which 800 celebrities (with free passes) and 200 fans (with very expensive tickets) were also overwhelmingly positive.

But I'm also not surprised that JJ's film still has some very strong, passionate detractors. So did TAS, TMP, ST II, ST III, ST IV, TNG, ST V, ST VI... and so on. Nothing new there!
 
Think about it this way: when JJ Abrams decided to do a new Star Trek movie, why did he go back to TOS and resurrect those characters?

Because they are the big brand names, and Abrams knows that recognizable names will put butts in seats.

The general public knows: Kirk, Spock, Enterprise, Romulans, Vulcans, Klingons and Khan. That's the whole cosmos from which Abrams will build Star Trek.

I was hoping that he'd consider the first movie to have wormed its way into the popular imagination well enough that he could move beyond that rather limited list. I guess he isn't confident enough in his ability to put butts in seats with, say, Lord Garth as the villain.

Maybe for the third movie? I have a funny feeling we may be seeing the Borg again. :rommie:

I don't see it as any different to Batman fighting The Joker again and again.

Batman fans probably complain about the Joker. The fact that it doesn't seem wrong to us is a good indication of how Khan looks to the general audience - something they recognize well enough to be vaguely interesting but not well enough that they think "that's the best that schlockmeister could do?"
 
I think the last couple movies should have stayed away from the whole kirk spock scenario...........fuck them they had more than enough movies about them.

A ds9 movie would have been great a number of years back but they need to try something new or different,

Like it or not, Star Trek is Kirk, Spock and the Enterprise to the general public. Who don't give a shit about Deep Space Nine.

That's not true at all, I'm 25, and I know tons of people that liked tng, and virtually none that watched tos, even I skipped into until 2009, part of the reason the reboot worked so well was the fact that the target audience never watched the original aside from maybe a few random episodes.
 
There is absolutely no compelling artistic or thematic reason to reuse Khan. It's purely to get butts in seats and make tons of money. If they can also make the movie entertaining and fun at the same time, then they'll do it. They probably can. Making a movie fun and entertaining is not hard for Abrams. And the cast is certainly game.

But will the film have depth? Artistry? Anything new and interesting to add to this very old and formulaic and repetitive franchise? I highly doubt it. I don't think they want to. The key here is, "Recapture the old," not "Create something new."

And no, this is nothing like Christopher Nolan reusing The Joker. Nolan reused the Joker in order to create an entirely new kind of villain, and an entirely new kind of comic book movie. He created something almost completely original, and a masterpiece.

But there is nothing new or original, so far, in Abrams' Star Trek universe. It is a workable, entertaining, and mindless mix of 60's Star Trek and current action movies. There is nothing new about it at all. As a result, I highly doubt that any new Star Trek movie with Khan in it is going to have the kind of striking originality about it that Nolan's Joker had.

I would love to be proven wrong, of course. But I'm not holding my breath.
 
But isn't that exactly what people were saying before The Dark Knight came out? I remember a lot of people at least railing against the idea of Ledger as the Joker.
 
part of the reason the reboot worked so well was the fact that the target audience never watched the original aside from maybe a few random episodes.

And Paramount reported that sales of existing TOS boxed sets (and, indeed, all of ST) were extremely healthy in the months following JJ's movie, as new and casual fans went out in search of what had come before.

There is absolutely no compelling artistic or thematic reason to reuse Khan.

It seems to be that the movie will be exactly what Orci and Kurtzman wished they could see up on the big screen.

But will the film have depth? Artistry? Anything new and interesting to add...?

Why not? The last one did. ;)
 
As another poster wrote, it's not like they're re-making "space seed" or "TWOK." We'll have to see how it goes.


My guess is it'll be a fun but dumb action romp with great effects and battle scenes that leaves you satisfied but also somewhat empty. Junkfood Trek if you will.


Just a hunch.

I'm getting the same vibe. So far, JJ has been about "safe" plots, "run and jump" action and "modern" cinematography (lens flares, skakey-cam, etc). Lots of style, but little true substance.

Though I'd love to be shown wrong.
 
As another poster wrote, it's not like they're re-making "space seed" or "TWOK." We'll have to see how it goes.


My guess is it'll be a fun but dumb action romp with great effects and battle scenes that leaves you satisfied but also somewhat empty. Junkfood Trek if you will.


Just a hunch.

I'm getting the same vibe. So far, JJ has been about "safe" plots, "run and jump" action and "modern" cinematography (lens flares, skakey-cam, etc). Lots of style, but little true substance.

Though I'd love to be shown wrong.

Yep.

It will be The Avengers a la Trek. And it will be a smashing success at the box office. Nothing wrong with that at all. Is it my personal favorite cup of tea? Hell no. Will I pay to see it? Yes, and that's all that matters really.


The thing is, In my opinion, Star trek is not star trek in its truest form unless it's on Television.

Don't get me wrong. I love a lot of the star trek movies. Most of them. But I'd trade every star trek movie there is for one more season of TOS or TNG... I would hedge a bet that most trekkies probably agree with me. But maybe i'm way off base here. You tell me!
 
I'm sure one reason why they're using Khan (assuming that's correct which it probably is) is that it'll be a challenge creatively to reuse that character without rehashing Space Seed and TWoK and come up with a different spin on the character.
 
Don't get me wrong. I love a lot of the star trek movies. Most of them. But I'd trade every star trek movie there is for one more season of TOS or TNG... I would hedge a bet that most trekkies probably agree with me. But maybe i'm way off base here. You tell me!

I'd trade everything we've gotten since 1979 for thirteen episodes of Star Trek: Phase II. :techman:
 
Don't get me wrong. I love a lot of the star trek movies. Most of them. But I'd trade every star trek movie there is for one more season of TOS or TNG... I would hedge a bet that most trekkies probably agree with me. But maybe i'm way off base here. You tell me!

I'd trade everything we've gotten since 1979 for thirteen episodes of Star Trek: Phase II. :techman:

Yikes. Sure am glad you're not in charge of such things. Much like Lucas and Star Wars, Trek was at its best when Roddenberry was involved as little as possible.
 
Don't get me wrong. I love a lot of the star trek movies. Most of them. But I'd trade every star trek movie there is for one more season of TOS or TNG... I would hedge a bet that most trekkies probably agree with me. But maybe i'm way off base here. You tell me!

I'd trade everything we've gotten since 1979 for thirteen episodes of Star Trek: Phase II. :techman:

Yikes. Sure am glad you're not in charge of such things. Much like Lucas and Star Wars, Trek was at its best when Roddenberry was involved as little as possible.

It was actually at its best when young Roddenberry was in charge. See seasons one and two of Star Trek: The Original Series. :techman:
 
It is a workable, entertaining, and mindless mix of 60's Star Trek and current action movies.
You mean just like The Wrath of Khan? :rolleyes:

wrath of khan was certainly "workable" and entertaining, but if you are going to choose one trek film to describe as "mindless", wrath of khan is probably the worst possible example to use. What are you thinking?
 
Let's see:

Plot initiated by massive plot hole of immeasurable contrivance? Check.

All three major plot points resolved by dubious deus ex machina? Check.

B plot's only purpose is to server as villain's final solution? Check.

Theme watered-down "homage" to classic literature? Check.

Villain shown does not equal villain advertised? Check.

I don't know. Seems pretty mindless to me.
 
Let's see:

Plot initiated by massive plot hole of immeasurable contrivance? Check.

All three major plot points resolved by dubious deus ex machina? Check.

B plot's only purpose is to server as villain's final solution? Check.

Theme watered-down "homage" to classic literature? Check.

Villain shown does not equal villain advertised? Check.

I don't know. Seems pretty mindless to me.

That's a pretty mindless analysis. I can do the same silly check list for The Godfather, if I wanted to. A movie doesn't function on the level of a list like that - The Graduate also seems simple if you just list its elements; it's in the way it's done that a movie becomes great.

I'm not saying Wrath of Khan is Schindler's List or anything, but in terms of an extremely thoughtful link between character and theme, you'd be hard-pressed to find many better science fiction films than Wrath of Khan.
 
That's a pretty mindless analysis.
Not really. I simply listed the most commonly argued of the film's faults. These have been brought up countless times here and elsewhere and have been debated ad nauseum. There wasn't a need to go into a further detail because it's really not relevant to the argument.

But for parallelism's sake, I'll acquiesce. One of the ST09 hater's biggest complaint is the Delta Vega sequence--or rather, how the probability of the whole thing requires a huge suspension of disbelief. Which, I admit, is a valid argument.

However, it isn't any more incredulous than the first act of TWOK.

Because there, before anything else, the audience has to accept planets just randomly explode. Okay, fine.

Next the audience has to accept the result of this explosion altered the orbit of the adjacent planet thus resulting in sidekicks' confusion.

However, an explosion would have pushed the adjacent planet and not pulled it. This theory is supplemented by the fact that said planet is transformed from an arboreal paradise to a desert wasteland. This would only happen if the planet is propelled closer to its sun.

Further more, a missing planet would leave a a substantial hole in the star chart. So anyone who comes along would plot a course to the sixth planet and count: "One, two, three, four, five, si.. Wait a minute. One, two, three, four, five, si.." A definite cause for alarm.

So the result can only be the audience has to accept that Token Black Guy and Goofy Russian Guy, at best, can't read a map and, at worst, can't count to six. Aside from being borderline offensive, it's already asking a lot of the audience and it hasn't even got to the good stuff yet.

Now the audience has to accept that a motley crew of "super humans" some how managed to survive 17+ years on that desert wasteland in a hollowed out cargo carrier without a single food or water source solely on the leader's "superior intellect" The may be super, but they're all still human. This can only suggest that, in the Star Trek universe superior intellect = Dumbledore.

But wait! One other form of life did manage to survive. It's some uber slug with the mystical power of brainwashing. It just so happens, it's exactly what Superior Intellect Guy needs to advance his evil scheme. Then again, we are dealing with Dumbledore.

But whatever. We shut our brains off and move on. Fine. But how is it any different than accepting the fact nuKirk magically happens to run into oldSpock who leads him to nuScotty? It really isn't.



I can do the same silly check list for The Godfather
:lol:

You're funny. I like you.

it's in the way it's done that a movie becomes great.
But the problem is TWOK is, artistically, so incredibly safe. It was as if Little Nicky took instruction strait out of the "How to direct a movie" edition of Highlights magazine. Almost everything substantial he did in that film was borrowed from someplace else, even the dialog. This in and of itself is fine. The problem is, he didn't put anything of himself into it. It's very artistically flat.

Which is the very complaint you've made about ST09. At least Abrams tried the lens flares. Now, you can argue that it ended up being and epic failure, but at least he tried to put his artistic mark (flair?) on it.

Never mind the fact that many of the other cinematic techniques you criticized him for using were ones he's recognized for making popular in the first place. I don't think that's fair at all especially considering Meyer isn't recognized for much of anything.

But the most important issue here is Meyer broke the golden rule of storytelling: He told us. He didn't show us.

For starters, most of the really important stuff happened off screen. And by important stuff, I mean the stuff that directly relates to Khan and his character traits. His "torturing" of the Genesis scientists for example. The audience is only made aware of his involvement after the fact via Terrell anecdotal evidence--who'd not been portrayed as the most reliable of sources, I might add. Therefore the audience is force to assume.

As such, Meyer is only "telling" us Khan is evil. He did not show us.

Furthermore, what he did show usually contradicted what he told us. For example:

Kirk Spock Chekhov Terrell: OMG Khan is like Sooooooooo smart. Like totally a super-duper-uber genius!

Khan: Herpa derp. Three dimensions? Herpa derp.

At least Abrams made an effort to show us a bit more about Nero or at least enough to supplement his (admittedly lesser) significance.

but in terms of an extremely thoughtful link between character and theme,
But the story's resolution completely contradicts the theme that had been building.

It's like you've go Ahab trolling along hunting his whale, he thinks he almost has it when suddenly Flipper jumps out of the water and knocks his ass off the boat leaving him to drown in the deep abyss.

ST09's theme was much simpler but in turn it was much more focused and complete and woven much more efficiently around the characters' arcs.
 
That's a pretty mindless analysis.
Not really. I simply listed the most commonly argued of the film's faults. These have been brought up countless times here and elsewhere and have been debated ad nauseum. There wasn't a need to go into a further detail because it's really not relevant to the argument.

But for parallelism's sake, I'll acquiesce. One of the ST09 hater's biggest complaint is the Delta Vega sequence--or rather, how the probability of the whole thing requires a huge suspension of disbelief. Which, I admit, is a valid argument.

However, it isn't any more incredulous than the first act of TWOK.

Because there, before anything else, the audience has to accept planets just randomly explode. Okay, fine.

Next the audience has to accept the result of this explosion altered the orbit of the adjacent planet thus resulting in sidekicks' confusion.

However, an explosion would have pushed the adjacent planet and not pulled it. This theory is supplemented by the fact that said planet is transformed from an arboreal paradise to a desert wasteland. This would only happen if the planet is propelled closer to its sun.

Further more, a missing planet would leave a a substantial hole in the star chart. So anyone who comes along would plot a course to the sixth planet and count: "One, two, three, four, five, si.. Wait a minute. One, two, three, four, five, si.." A definite cause for alarm.

So the result can only be the audience has to accept that Token Black Guy and Goofy Russian Guy, at best, can't read a map and, at worst, can't count to six. Aside from being borderline offensive, it's already asking a lot of the audience and it hasn't even got to the good stuff yet.

Now the audience has to accept that a motley crew of "super humans" some how managed to survive 17+ years on that desert wasteland in a hollowed out cargo carrier without a single food or water source solely on the leader's "superior intellect" The may be super, but they're all still human. This can only suggest that, in the Star Trek universe superior intellect = Dumbledore.

But wait! One other form of life did manage to survive. It's some uber slug with the mystical power of brainwashing. It just so happens, it's exactly what Superior Intellect Guy needs to advance his evil scheme. Then again, we are dealing with Dumbledore.

But whatever. We shut our brains off and move on. Fine. But how is it any different than accepting the fact nuKirk magically happens to run into oldSpock who leads him to nuScotty? It really isn't.



I can do the same silly check list for The Godfather
:lol:

You're funny. I like you.

it's in the way it's done that a movie becomes great.
But the problem is TWOK is, artistically, so incredibly safe. It was as if Little Nicky took instruction strait out of the "How to direct a movie" edition of Highlights magazine. Almost everything substantial he did in that film was borrowed from someplace else, even the dialog. This in and of itself is fine. The problem is, he didn't put anything of himself into it. It's very artistically flat.

Which is the very complaint you've made about ST09. At least Abrams tried the lens flares. Now, you can argue that it ended up being and epic failure, but at least he tried to put his artistic mark (flair?) on it.

Never mind the fact that many of the other cinematic techniques you criticized him for using were ones he's recognized for making popular in the first place. I don't think that's fair at all especially considering Meyer isn't recognized for much of anything.

But the most important issue here is Meyer broke the golden rule of storytelling: He told us. He didn't show us.

For starters, most of the really important stuff happened off screen. And by important stuff, I mean the stuff that directly relates to Khan and his character traits. His "torturing" of the Genesis scientists for example. The audience is only made aware of his involvement after the fact via Terrell anecdotal evidence--who'd not been portrayed as the most reliable of sources, I might add. Therefore the audience is force to assume.

As such, Meyer is only "telling" us Khan is evil. He did not show us.

Furthermore, what he did show usually contradicted what he told us. For example:

Kirk Spock Chekhov Terrell: OMG Khan is like Sooooooooo smart. Like totally a super-duper-uber genius!

Khan: Herpa derp. Three dimensions? Herpa derp.

At least Abrams made an effort to show us a bit more about Nero or at least enough to supplement his (admittedly lesser) significance.

but in terms of an extremely thoughtful link between character and theme,
But the story's resolution completely contradicts the theme that had been building.

It's like you've go Ahab trolling along hunting his whale, he thinks he almost has it when suddenly Flipper jumps out of the water and knocks his ass off the boat leaving him to drown in the deep abyss.

ST09's theme was much simpler but in turn it was much more focused and complete and woven much more efficiently around the characters' arcs.

A very thoughtful analysis. And while your individual points have merit, a review of Wrath of Khan, holistically, makes the individual points you mentioned irrelevant, at least for the majority of its viewers over the decades.

Look - suspension of disbelief has to be willing, granted. Sometimes, a movie's tone, or characters, or ambition, or whatever, makes viewers willing to suspend it, and other movies fail at that. Of course a man can't climb under a car moving 60 miles an hour through the desert without getting a bit cut up, but we allow Indiana Jones to do this. And of course a bus can't jump over a massive hole in a highway and land completely upright and intact, but by that moment in Speed, we were all perfectly fine with them doing that.

On the other hand, Data's jump from one ship to the other in Nemesis was stupid. Shinzon being bald? Stupid. But a Borg cube that somehow gets defeated in two minutes in First Contact? Just fine.

Am I being contradictory in my willing suspension of disbelief? Sure. I should be. In some movies, I will suspend it, and have a great time doing it. In other movies, I won't believe it if there's noise in space. Wrath of Khan is so powerful, on an emotional, visceral level, that all the plot weaknesses in the world simply don't matter. On the other hand, because Nemesis is such an amateurish and sloppy mess, all the little plot holes and technical glitches become all-encompassing.

My point simply is, Wrath of Khan is splendid space opera. It's worthy of space opera literature. Its tone and ambitions are so heightened, and the characters so alive, and its emotional hits so potent, that it gets away with almost anything. Just like the first two Star Wars movies do, even though they also have glaring holes in logic.

The new Star Trek movie series needs to really pick up its game if it wants to have the same impact that the original movie series did. And, I just think that rebooting the same movie villains again is a difficult way to accomplish that.
 
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