"That Which Survives" Ship Peril Makes No Sense

[ZapBrannigan]

Good extrapolation, that's certainly enough as a top-up (even if not to run "indefinitely") However, when at warp how much of the real space is the Enterprise really interacting with? The whole point is to warp space around the ship, isn't it? Wouldn't that also include interstellar hydrogen?

That's a great point.

Great question. Perhaps the collector's field extends past the warp bubble, so, interstellar hydrogen is streaming into the warp bubble at FLT speeds, but maybe the warp field also slows the concentrated streams of hydrogen down to be funneled into the collectors...more treknobabble...

That's thinking outside the box alright, but if the nacelle collector domes are outside the warp bubble, then they would be taking the long way through space, and take tens of thousands of years longer than the rest of the ship to travel between two star systems. It doesn't pass the laugh test.

Another question I would have is this: why are they trying to scoop up a few hydrogen atoms in space when they could just carry a big tank of hydrogen aboard the ship? Hydrogen isn't scarce. Getting it from water is the simplest thing in the world. You can have all you'll ever need in a tank before you leave spacedock.

 

[uniderth]

Just a note, we have zero evidence that the glowy domes on the nacelles are later TNG style bussards.

If any feature was to be a hydrogen collector then it would probably be the vent like rings behind the domes.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Just a note, we have zero evidence that the glowy domes on the nacelles are later TNG style bussards.

True, but the Franz Joseph blueprints called out the domes as collectors, and in the second half of the 1970s, his work was considered near-canon. So the idea at least has been abroad for a long time. And as stated above, I have a hard time with it.

 

[Henoch]

That's thinking outside the box alright, but if the nacelle collector domes are outside the warp bubble, then they would be taking the long way through space, and take tens of thousands of years longer than the rest of the ship to travel between two star systems. It doesn't pass the laugh test.

The domes are squarely inside the warp bubble; The magnetic/gravity field reach at least into the bubble or beyond the bubble via treknobabble is my point. Also, the domes are not collectors, rather the vent/rings behind the domes, IMHO.

 

[Timo]

There is nothing wrong with collecting hydrogen as such - hoovering it out of the way of the starship would be a beneficial procedure, surely, and perhaps a prerequisite for moving FTL at all (cf. Cochrane's blatant if not explicit "ramscoop domes" and/or "ramscoop rings").

However, nowhere on screen are these things or other starship doodads actually credited with collecting hydrogen. Rather, on several occasions, they vent out stuff, and at least once they are specficially and exceptionally activated in order to scoop in nebula gases (not hydrogen). Perhaps they indeed are hydrogen scoops by day profession, but it so happens that they work for only one or two days a year, scooping up hydrogen from proper sources such as gas giant upper atmospheres, and are idled (or abused in unintended ways) the rest of the time.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Just a note, we have zero evidence that the glowy domes on the nacelles are later TNG style bussards.

I'd say the evidence is the visual similarity -- they're red domes on the front of the nacelles with glowy/swirly lights inside. It's obvious that the Bussard collectors on TNG-era ships were meant to be the same technology, and I don't see any point in resisting that. Form follows function. If it were some completely different mechanism, it would look different.

I mean, there's no evidence in TOS that Sulu's first name is Hikaru, but it would still be pointless to claim that it somehow wasn't.

 

[Prax]

Another question I would have is this: why are they trying to scoop up a few hydrogen atoms in space when they could just carry a big tank of hydrogen aboard the ship? Hydrogen isn't scarce. Getting it from water is the simplest thing in the world. You can have all you'll ever need in a tank before you leave spacedock.

Or just dip down into a planets atmosphere and scoop up whatever elements you need in an instant.

 

[drt]

True, but the Franz Joseph blueprints called out the domes as collectors, and in the second half of the 1970s, his work was considered near-canon. So the idea at least has been abroad for a long time. And as stated above, I have a hard time with it.

Not the blueprints, but the technical manual calls the front domes "space energy/matter sinks". However, it also calls the rear domes "space energy/matter sources" - plus, it describes the rest of the propulsion unit as comprising a series of "stages" (from front to back: magnatomic flux constriction-first stage, primary power stage, main energy stage and final stage).

Taking all of that together he seems to be imagining that the warp engines function like jet engines, but instead of air, the medium is "space energy/matter", which enters through the sinks at the front, is processed through a series of stages (each set of blades in a jet engine is referred to as a "stage"), then expelled through the sources at the back.

 

[Christopher]

Taking all of that together he seems to be imagining that the warp engines function like jet engines, but instead of air, the medium is "space energy/matter", which enters through the sinks at the front, is processed through a series of stages (each set of blades in a jet engine is referred to as a "stage"), then expelled through the sources at the back.

Which is reminiscent of a Bussard ramjet, which takes in space matter (hydrogen gas), compresses it to fusion temperatures, and expels it out the back for thrust. Or in the Trek tech case, stores its deuterium fraction as fuel for the warp and impulse engines.

 

[J.T.B.]

Form follows function. If it were some completely different mechanism, it would look different.

That then raises a further question of why the TMP refit and '80s movie ships did not follow that form. The same technology in a different package, or two different propulsion systems used in parallel?

 

[Christopher]

That then raises a further question of why the TMP refit and '80s movie ships did not follow that form. The same technology in a different package, or two different propulsion systems used in parallel?

I'd say it's more likely for two mechanisms serving the same general purpose to look different (e.g. a rotary phone and a touch-tone phone, or a helicopter tail rotor and a NOTAR system) than for two mechanisms serving different purposes to look the same.

So I figure it's just an alternative design for a Bussard collector. The Kimble TMP blueprints did refer to it using the same "space energy/matter sink" terminology as the SFTM. And we have seen other nacelle designs with different ratios of exposed glowy dome bits and opaque cowlings, so maybe some just have the glowy bits covered up. The TMP design does have gratings of a sort on the front, so the hydrogen could go in there.

 

[cgervasi]

Imagine if the Enterprise was marooned out in space for years! How long would discipline be maintained before the crew decided they wanted extra rations or that Kirk's orders were somehow to be disputed and then blame him for their predicament?
JB

In The Paradise Syndrome the Enterprise spent two months returning to the planet where they had left Kirk. Scotty said the warp drive was beyond repair. I thought maybe they had to wait for a ship with replacements for the unrepairable parts. Or maybe Scotty was just being pessimistic and he ended up working a "miracle".

When I first saw this episode, it really gave me the feeling they were out in deep space, taking months to go a trillion kilometers. McCoy blames Spock for their predicament, and Spock blames himself too. But they work it out and focus on saving the planet and Kirk.

I would have liked more stories than give you the feeling that they out in deep space, dependent on warp drive. It's hard to do, though. I never got that feeling from Voyager, even though it was the main premise of the show. I get that feeling from the reimagined BSG and Another Life. Maybe it was because I was a kid, but I got a feeling of them being stranded more from The Paradise Syndrome than any episode of Voyager.

 

[johnnybear]

Thing is there were only twelve ships like the Enterprise to police the entire galaxy that we know of! Did the other ships that we know of like the Antares or the ore ships have similar warp style capabilities?
JB

 

[Mytran]

It's stated in TOS (quite explicitly in Bread And Circuses) that vessels like the Enterprise are something a bit special, far beyond your typical space ship and have thus been designated the title of STAR ship.
It doesn't mean that more standard ships weren't used for more routine patrolling, scientific studies in established areas etc.

 

[johnnybear]

That's what I was getting at. The quality of a Starship in comparison to the other Survey ships, Merchant vessels and or unmanned craft like the Ore ships seen in The Ultimate Computer and More Tribbles, More Troubles!
JB

 

[Timo]

Or then "starship" means "Starfleet vessel", and there are thousands of those, from tiny to humongous, with Kirk's falling somewhere in between. Merrick's little survey vessel explicitly isn't Starfleet, but she need not be markedly smaller or otherwise technologically lesser than the average starship. Instead, she's crewed by civilians who lack the ruthless determination of the warrior caste that Claudius ought to be aware of...

In The Paradise Syndrome the Enterprise spent two months returning to the planet where they had left Kirk. Scotty said the warp drive was beyond repair. I thought maybe they had to wait for a ship with replacements for the unrepairable parts.

We didn't hear whether they managed to get a call for help out or not, but the plot wouldn't depend on that much. Ultimately, Scotty would have to either

a) repair warp with spares,
b) repair warp on his own, or
c) get a tow to a repair base,

and this would either involve a successful FTL call for help or then depend on Starfleet sending somebody out to search for their missing vessel. Sometimes the latter happens within weeks ("Tholian Web"), sometimes not even after half a year ("Omega Glory"), but perhaps it ultimately always happens?

When I first saw this episode, it really gave me the feeling they were out in deep space, taking months to go a trillion kilometers.

Definitely a forte of the episode, and not much of a contradiction as regards the rest of Trek, either. Except for DSC, perhaps, with everything a short shuttle hop away. But the DSC heroes never were tasked with traveling to deepest space. Except with their spore drive, that is, and the shuttle hops didn't feature in there. The contrast to TOS is welcome IMHO.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cgervasi]

Thing is there were only twelve ships like the Enterprise to police the entire galaxy that we know of! Did the other ships that we know of like the Antares or the ore ships have similar warp style capabilities?
JB

I imagined there were only 12 Constitution class ships but there were several classes of which there was a dozen or so of each. They patrol a vast frontier, so it's not many ships per unit volume of space. There are other non military ships out there with colonists looking for a new start in a frontier town or people involved in mining. The few Starfleet ships out there are the only civilizing law enforcement force out there, so they have board powers. It's like Roddenberry said, it's a western in space.

 

[Christopher]

It's like Roddenberry said, it's a western in space.

Roddenberry was as influenced by Horatio Hornblower and the age of sail as by the Old West. People read the wrong thing into the "Wagon Train to the stars" pitch line. It didn't mean "Western in space," because maybe half the shows on TV at the time were Westerns, so that would've been way too generic. He picked that specific Western because it was a long-running, critically acclaimed adult drama with a semi-anthology format, and that worked as a shorthand for telling network executives what format and level of sophistication he was aiming for (an important point to make, since most science fiction on TV at the time was lowbrow and aimed at children).

 

[valkyrie013]

I thought in insurrection that they used the buzzards to scoop up the flammable gas into tanks then release it behind it..
And to release the hydrogen in that sleepless episode..
You can always use more fuel! And as insurrection showed, can scoop up other useful gasses..
Can always dive down into a gas giant for fuel as well.. Why that voyager episode running out of fuel was bullcrap.. Or newt crap...

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Can always dive down into a gas giant for fuel as well.. Why that voyager episode running out of fuel was bullcrap.. Or newt crap...

The scarce thing is antimatter. You can scoop up hydrogen by the atom if you want to, instead of just carrying a tank of it, but without antimatter what good is it?