That South African He/She runner

[Miss Chicken]

If s/he doesn't like the rules of the game, then s/he doesn't have to play the game.

The 'rules of the games' have up to now accepted her as a female.

What she probably doesn't like is people changing the rules for her mid-stream and I see no reason why anyone should accept that.

For 18 years everyone has considered her to be female - herself, her family, her friends, her country, athletic boards etc and I think it should continue that way. She is a woman.

 

[Jadzia]

I feel its more a case of deciding what the rules are in cases they haven't had to deal with before. If the classification is to be male/female, then "female" is based on what? Legal status? Anatomy? The body's natural hormone levels? An absence of Y-chromosomes?

The idea of defining these rules for the game is to set a clear and definite division. Choose one of the above, and that must be applied without quibble to all competitors. So be aware that your definition could be exploited in the future at some point by people who are desperate to win races, and you'd have to be happy enough with your decision to accept that possibility.

 

[Lookingglassman]

This chick is a chick, let her keep her medals.

 

[JonathonWally]

I'm gonna go out on this one and suggest something some one you may consider..crazy.

How bout in terms of deciding factors for a physical competition, you use "muscle structure" as the deciding factor?

I mean, I don't care what your genetics and chromosomes define you as, or you hormone levels. 100% Male, 100% Female, 50/50. Let it depend on what muscle structure you have.

If your muscles are structured like that of a man, compete with other competitors of the same.

If your muscles are structured like that of a woman, compete with other competitors of the same.


That being said. She's a chick, she won, she keeps her medals.

 

[sidious618]

If your muscles are structured like that of a woman, compete with other competitors of the same.

It's a good thing I've been working on my hour glass figure then.

 

[Star Wolf]

If the authorities involved had a problem with it, it should have surfaced before she was allowed to compete. Wanting to take her awards away now just smacks of sour grapes.

Maybe, but in any case I think it's more interesting to consider the issue in an abstract sense, and I don't think ignoring biology in favour of self-identification provides a satisfactory answer. If we consider the "like against like" principle that prevents dolphins from competing against swimmers, motorcyclists from competing against runners, adults from competing against children, and men from competing against women to be of value in competition, then inter-sexed folks clearly pose a problem. Any system seeking to accommodate them outside the traditional male/female dichotomy faces the practical issue that there simply aren't many such folks around, and I suspect that an "other" category, however labelled and delineated, would be both ethically and practically problematic. Yet if women possessing various male characteristics that serve to confer a material advantage are permitted to race alongside woman without such characteristics, is that not unfair to those women? In the long run, with our increasing ability to manipulate genetic structures, isn't there a risk of creating a women's sporting culture composed (at the elite level) almost entirely of such individuals?

There is no risk of women's sports being composed "almost entirely of such individuals." Just how common do you think intersexed people are?

....

I have no ideal but I do know that outside of boxing there are only two world champions of any event at a given time.

As a default if you can't be sure then you compete against the men is my opinion.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Here's another angle I don't think anyone has considered: what is fair to her and her competitors in a positive sense, not necessarily the negative one.

What will provide this individual the fairest test of mettle, from a competitive standpoint? Is she strong enough that going up against the men could be a rewarding challenge? Or would it be impossible, and instead she's in a position to set a bar for the women to do their best to find legal ways to come up to?

Obviously whatever decision is the right one, it would require a lot of psychological and spiritual mettle as well, because there will always be people with a lot of questions, some of them not nice. But it seems no one has addressed that perspective

 

[vampgrrl]

I haven't read the entire thread but transgender people can compete as their gender already, if they are post op and have been on a hormone replacement regimen for a certain number of years after surgery.

That said, Castor is a woman. Let her be.

 

[Stardate]

I did watch world championship 800 meters race live and when i saw south African runner Semeyna my first reaction was She is a dude. She might have vagina but her appearancee look more like 18 year boy then a girl. This test resultss clearly shows she has unfair advantagee over other females athletics and it showed in the race. Semeyna trashed them by hundred of meters. Don't forget Semeyna is only 18 year old and she is going to get better, stronger and faster becausee she has testes and produces 3 to 4 times more testosterone then average women.
This shouldn't really be open to discussion and she should be disqualified. This might be harsh but she was beating the best 800 meters female runners in the world. Majority were experience runners in their prime and here comes 18 year old girl in her first world championship race and she trashes them.

 

[Deckerd]

She's not going to be disqualified so you'll just have to bear that disappointment.

 

[Stardate]

She's not going to be disqualified so you'll just have to bear that disappointment.

I can bear it fine as i am not competing aginst her/him however question is if the other females athletics are going to bear it especially after the test results.

 

[Deckerd]

THey're professionals. They're probably the only other people in this debate who are affected in any way and they aren't complaining.

 

[Stardate]

The test results are just in. They haven't had the time to complain.

 

[Deckerd]

The test results aren't official. They don't need to complain yet.

 

[Stardate]

They are going to complain there is no doupt about it if the test results are accurate. Pandora box has been open.

 

[Deckerd]

We shall see. Will you offer to eat anything if they don't?

 

[Stardate]

Yes, buffalo or bull testicles.

 

[Jadzia]

From a 'Caster'-ated bull.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

From a 'Caster'-ated bull.

... from which the semen-ya is extracted.

(sorry)


To be honest, I can't really add much to what has already been discussed above. In all seriousness, intergender states are quite a fascinating conecpt from a medical perspective - this article from the BBC in the light of the Caster Semenya row discusses the problem in better words than I could:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8250609.stm

Their definition of the four "types of sex" is fascinating: phenotypical, genetic, psychological, and gonadal. In the past I read all about endocrine disorders such as AIS and CAH - fascinating that one missing step in a biochemical pathway leads to drastic changes in one's gender phenotype, and has a subsequently huge impact on the baby's upbringing and psychological state (and, if a high profile case, its impact on the column inches of the world's press).

It all puts Dr. Nick Riviera's "What's Your Sex?" stall in an old episode of The Simpsons in a new light, really.

 

[Galactus]

Most female athletes are claimed to look like a dude. I remember when everyone used to say Venus and Serena looked liked dudes. WNBA has the same problem. Everyone expects supermodels, dancers, singers and actresses to be playing sports and looking hot. Guys really are pigs.