TFF: Where were the Romulans?

[Captrek]

You know, Sybok's plan almost seemed to require a starship with a "less than skeleton crew" and missing several important functions, including transporters. He didn't just need a Federation starship sent to Nimbus III, he specifically needed the Enterprise. I wonder if God played with Admiral Bob's mind too.

 

[Timo]

Because at any point in his plan, he could easily have been killed because he put himself and others in danger. Plus there were weapons involved.

But weapons being involved would be desirable: Sybok would want an armed battlewagon. That is, God would want one. Flying in with SS Aurora would do God little good, after all.

Why should personal danger to Sybok be an undesirable element, either? From his own point of view, he's on a quest. The only reason to water down the thrill of that quest would be if he signed up for Vulcan stoicism, but we know Sybok doesn't do that.

God wanted a starship, and starships are Starfleet property. It doesn't sound too much to assume that God got exactly what He wanted, and did so by telling Sybok to do His bidding. And getting a starship requires confronting and besting Starfleet.

Not that this would absolutely require a pre-weakened ship such as the Enterprise: an operation in which the envoys are rescued and Sybok jailed would also be a success, as the envoys would then do Sybok's Trojan-horse bidding to let the Vulcan take over the fully crewed and operational vessel. But staging the play at Nimbus III would seem to guarantee immunity from further Starfleet interference, so it's a pretty smart element in the plan.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

^That makes absolutely no sense in the context of the film. "God" just needs a spacecraft to escape ShaKaRee. His use of the term "starship" is just semantics; he didn't need a Starfleet vessel any more than he needed a Bird of Prey, a Romulan warbird, or a Terellian plague vessel. He just needed an escape vehicle. So Sybok could have used a decommissioned Vulcan freighter that he himself piloted as far as that was concerned, and saved himself a lot of trouble by not causing an intergalactic incident in which he could have been killed in its implementation.

The only drawback to this is Kirk's statement about "no ship has ever penetrated the barrier," but even that is nonsense, as both the Enterprise and a BoP do so without any ill effects. If the film stated a very specific reason why "God" needed a Constitution class Federation vessel, than fine. But it really didn't, did it?

 

[Timo]

A starship (first a Starfleet one, then a Klingon one) got through the barrier. God needs that. There's no indication a lesser vessel would have sufficed, and a Starfleet hostage-rescue ship is what Sybok can access with the plot we witness. He cannot access comparable Klingon ships, nor would there be an obvious alternate way to access a Starfleet ship. So where's the problem? We really don't need the details spelled out, not when we don't have any obvious contradictions to sort out.

Death, intergalactic incident... Sybok is going to meet God. Why would he care?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

A starship (first a Starfleet one, then a Klingon one) got through the barrier. God needs that.

God needs what? The Starfleet ship or the BoP?

There's no indication a lesser vessel would have sufficed...

And there's no indication that a lesser vessel would not have sufficed. "God" could have escaped aboard the BoP just as easily as the Enterprise.

...and a Starfleet hostage-rescue ship is what Sybok can access with the plot we witness. He cannot access comparable Klingon ships, nor would there be an obvious alternate way to access a Starfleet ship. So where's the problem?

The problem? Let's analyze this "plot." God contacts Sybok; asks him for a starship. God obviously wasn't being specific as to what starship, since Sybok wouldn't have known what ship would be sent to Nimbus III. And on that subject, Sybok seems to think that the best way to acquire said ship would be to stage a kidnapping of three third-rate ambassadors on some backwater planet that nobody cares about, in hopes that they'll be rescued. He has no idea if any of the three governments will even care enough to send a rescue party, even though he seems to steadfastly think they will. For all he knew, nobody would come to rescue them, and then where would Sybok be?

But, thanks to the "plot," we have Starfleet sending a ship that really should have been sent back to drydock for a refit; a ship that could have malfunctioned and not even made it to Nimbus III in time. Then where would Sybok be?

Alternately, the Romulans or the Klingons could have sent a ship (other than Klaa's, that is, who seemed to just want to go to Nimbus III for his own reasons), and knowing either Empire, they probably would have just killed everyone. Then where would Sybok be?

There are several, more logical ways for Sybok to have attained a ship. As someone earlier said, he could have asked that weird-eared, backwards-talking alien at the bar from STIII to charter a flight there. But instead he embroiled himself in a half-baked hostage situation that could have had disastrous consequences for him if it had gone wrong.

So based on all of the above, the fact that Sybok's plan succeeded at all is nothing short of amazing, considering the circumstances. But that's only because the "plot" required it to happen that way.

 

[OpenMaw]

Or, as SFDebris pointed out in his review of V. Why not hitch a ride to Starfleet (Clearly it's not an issue. How else did he get to Nimbus III?)

Influence a low level member of SF, then get a meeting with someone else higher up, influence them, and so on, until you get to someone high enough that they can get you a ship that is fully operational. Avoid all the conflict entirely.

 

[Timo]

A starship (first a Starfleet one, then a Klingon one) got through the barrier. God needs that.

God needs what? The Starfleet ship or the BoP?

He needs a starship, that is, a ship capable of going through the barrier, so either will do.

There's no indication a lesser vessel would have sufficed...

And there's no indication that a lesser vessel would not have sufficed. "God" could have escaped aboard the BoP just as easily as the Enterprise.

That's splitting hairs: either vessel would indeed do, but both would be starships, vessels Sybok could only access by hijacking. (And good luck trying to hijack a Klingon ship!)

The problem? Let's analyze this "plot." God contacts Sybok; asks him for a starship. God obviously wasn't being specific as to what starship, since Sybok wouldn't have known what ship would be sent to Nimbus III. And on that subject, Sybok seems to think that the best way to acquire said ship would be to stage a kidnapping of three third-rate ambassadors on some backwater planet that nobody cares about, in hopes that they'll be rescued. He has no idea if any of the three governments will even care enough to send a rescue party, even though he seems to steadfastly think they will. For all he knew, nobody would come to rescue them, and then where would Sybok be?

Off to his next hijinks - he's in no real danger, of any sort, including in danger of being stuck at Nimbus III. Clearly, there are flights going in and out. He got there, after all.

But Sybok knowing what the three governments will do about their ambassadors is realistic. "He has no idea" is not based on anything - Sybok is not established to be mentally deficient, or out of touch with current politics, or incapable of doing prior research.

But, thanks to the "plot," we have Starfleet sending a ship that really should have been sent back to drydock for a refit; a ship that could have malfunctioned and not even made it to Nimbus III in time. Then where would Sybok be?

Off to his next hijinks again. There's no reason for his fate to be tied to that of the ambassadors; he can always just skulk away. But we already know Sybok doesn't care - there's a good chance that his plot will work, there's a good chance it will backfire, but he trusts that God will provide. And He (or whatever) does.

There are risks, but there are also rewards. I don't see any other approach working, as long as we accept that only a starship can get through the barrier. (We can drop that claim, sure, but we would be stupid to do so, as nothing forces us to, and by believing in the claim we can have the movie make sense.)

There are several, more logical ways for Sybok to have attained a ship. As someone earlier said, he could have asked that weird-eared, backwards-talking alien at the bar from STIII to charter a flight there.

That clown wouldn't have had a starship to offer: end of that line of thought. Sybok needs to con a military service, and Starfleet is his best bet. And Nimbus III is the place where Starfleet is at his mercy.

Influence a low level member of SF, then get a meeting with someone else higher up, influence them, and so on, until you get to someone high enough that they can get you a ship that is fully operational. Avoid all the conflict entirely.

That's a multi-stage plan. It can fail at multiple points.

A single-stage plan of taking over a single ship is automatically more likely to succeed, that is, less likely to run into the situation where somebody doesn't want his or her pain taken away and blows the whistle.

Nimbus III doesn't just have Paradise City: it is paradise, for somebody who wants to corner a single starship and then make use of it without being chased. Only a single crew needs to be converted to the cause, and only for a brief while.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

He needs a starship, that is, a ship capable of going through the barrier, so either will do.

And the point being?

That's splitting hairs: either vessel would indeed do, but both would be starships, vessels Sybok could only access by hijacking. (And good luck trying to hijack a Klingon ship!)

Which only reinforces my point that Sybok didn't have to hijack anything in order to accomplish his mission.

But Sybok knowing what the three governments will do about their ambassadors is realistic. "He has no idea" is not based on anything - Sybok is not established to be mentally deficient, or out of touch with current politics, or incapable of doing prior research.

So, what exactly happened, then? The Romulans sent nobody, the Klingons only posted what happened and didn't send any specific ship, and the Federation sent the worst ship they could possibly have had. Clearly that wasn't what Sybok intended. It only worked out for him because, again, that was what the plot called for.

But we already know Sybok doesn't care - there's a good chance that his plot will work, there's a good chance it will backfire, but he trusts that God will provide. And He (or whatever) does.

"God" had nothing whatsoever to do with Sybok's plan succeeding. It was entirely Sybok's luck.

I don't see any other approach working, as long as we accept that only a starship can get through the barrier. (We can drop that claim, sure, but we would be stupid to do so, as nothing forces us to, and by believing in the claim we can have the movie make sense.

Nonsense. Sybok could have gone to the Federation Council or the Vulcan Science academy, presented evidence that there was an alien life form on ShaKaRee, and asked for a science vessel to take him there (or at least check it out). Conversely, as I keep saying, he could have chartered a ship there himself.

That clown wouldn't have had a starship to offer: end of that line of thought.

That clown had a vessel that could go from Earth's solar system to the Genesis planet. Clearly that means he has a ship that can travel between stars. Unless you're equating "starship" with "Federation Starfleet vessel," in which "God" does not make that distinction. He only needs a vessel that can get him off ShaKaRee and to whatever planet or system he wants to go to.

Sybok needs to con a military service, and Starfleet is his best bet.

There was no reason whatsoever why he needed a military ship. Why would he need such a thing to meet his all-powerful and loving God?

And Nimbus III is the place where Starfleet is at his mercy.

Only if Starfleet cared enough to send a rescue ship, which he had no way of knowing if they would. For all he knew they could have just sent commandos down in a warp shuttle and snipered Sybok and his followers.

Nimbus III doesn't just have Paradise City: it is paradise, for somebody who wants to corner a single starship and then make use of it without being chased.

So there was nowhere else in the entire galaxy Sybok couldn't have found a ship in a much easier capacity?

Only a single crew needs to be converted to the cause, and only for a brief while.

So why didn't he just convert the crew of the ship that took him to Nimbus III in the first place?

 

[Timo]

Which only reinforces my point that Sybok didn't have to hijack anything in order to accomplish his mission.

That's your personal choice, and IMHO ill-advised. By assuming that the ship that Sybok delivers will have to meet certain specs (met by the E-A and the BoP), we have a plot that makes splendid sense. By assuming the opposite, we have a plot that does not.

So, what exactly happened, then? The Romulans sent nobody, the Klingons only posted what happened and didn't send any specific ship, and the Federation sent the worst ship they could possibly have had. Clearly that wasn't what Sybok intended.

To the contrary, that was a very predictable outcome. No Romulans, a random Klingon bent on taking potshots, and a duty-minded Starfleet team - exactly what the doctor would prescribe in the situation.

There wouldn't be much variation there. Clearly, none of the nations would send a fleet of ships, and clearly, Starfleet would have to send a vessel. And Starfleet sending a vessel meeting God's specs is also a safe bet, because it would be really odd for them to send SS Aurora or the Huron.

That clown had a vessel that could go from Earth's solar system to the Genesis planet. Clearly that means he has a ship that can travel between stars. Unless you're equating "starship" with "Federation Starfleet vessel," in which "God" does not make that distinction. He only needs a vessel that can get him off ShaKaRee and to whatever planet or system he wants to go to.

This is your interpretation, and IMHO ill-founded (but I did say that, didn't I?). The contrary interpretation, that the ship has to meet specs, is the better one in every respect.

There was no reason whatsoever why he needed a military ship. Why would he need such a thing to meet his all-powerful and loving God?

Ask God. Sybok may think He is all-powerful and loving, but that doesn't stop Sybok from being the boss of a violent criminal gang - clearly, Sybok is not hobbled by silly notions about knowing better than his God.

Were Sybok to ask Kirk's question, though, I'm sure God would provide the obvious satisfactory answer: "It takes a starship to get through the barrier that surrounds Me, ye of questionable faith! Uh, and that barrier is, ah, a test of that faith, yes, a test. Pass it for Me, willya?"

I can't be bothered to invent unlikely obstacles on Sybok's path to prove that his plot would have been less than optimal. "He can't know Starfleet's response?" Bullshit - Starfleet is predictable, bound by its directives and politics. "He won't do it if there's a chance it backfires?" He's gonna meet God - he won't care. "He will talk people around to letting him do it, or even doing it for him, the civilized way?" He was banished from Vulcan: no way in hell he would trust people to accept his rational arguments, or his questionable psychic practices.

There's a reason all these "Die Hard" Hollywood action plots take place in an isolated environment, such as a single building or vehicle or vessel. Isolation swings the odds in favor of the villain, who out in the society-at-large would always be in a crippling minority. It should be no wonder, then, that Sybok would choose a planet that is isolated by more than mere distance as the scene of his grand act.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

A lot of good questions / discussions have taken place here thus far. Here's my take on a few things:

1. It's said from the very beginning of the film that Sybok specifically needs a starship for his quest. We must assume that the reason for this is that the Great Barrier IS a substantial danger, and only a heavily-shielded and well-designed vessel can make it through. I'm assuming that privately-owned spaceships and transports don't have NEARLY the shielding or structural integrity as a ship classified as a starship.

2. Sybok requests a Federation Starship knowing full-well that Starfleet will respond and that the likelihood of being able to take over that ship will be much easier than a Romulan or Klingon ship. Sybok hopes that his request on the hostage tape keeps the Klingons and Romulans out of the mix, and they will allow the UFP to go in and clean things up. In fact, he probably COUNTED on the fact that the ambassadors from the Klingon and Romulan Empires were not highly valued in those governments, and only the Federation would have the decency to attempt a rescue. Also, in hostage negotiations, if the kidnapper requests an unmarked armored car and the police negotiator shows up with something else, that's a problem.

3. We can assume from on-screen clues that Sybok's plan was to brainwash the captain and XO of the Starfleet ship sent for him. If you recall, he requested in his negotiation with Checkov for the Captain and First Officer to beam down. Then, when he learned he was under attack, he was distraught. He obviously wanted to use his powers on the primary command structure of whichever ship came for him, and then he would work outward from there. He did not anticipate a move like Kirk's from Starfleet.

it actually all makes total sense, and never came off as a "contrivance" to me.

 

[Dukhat]

That's your personal choice, and IMHO ill-advised...

This is your interpretation, and IMHO ill-founded (but I did say that, didn't I?). The contrary interpretation, that the ship has to meet specs, is the better one in every respect.

This isn't a discussion about personal choice or interpretations. I'm well aware that you don't agree with my idea that Sybok could have gotten a ship in a better way than to stage a hostage situation. You seem to think that the way Sybok handled the situation was the correct one because it gave him the outcome he wanted. I'm saying that in a real-life situation, not one that Shatner scripted, that outcome would have had a snowball's chance in hell of actually happening the way it did in the movie.

To the contrary, that was a very predictable outcome. No Romulans, a random Klingon bent on taking potshots, and a duty-minded Starfleet team - exactly what the doctor would prescribe in the situation.

Except that my point, again, was that that particular outcome that worked in Sybok's favor was not a realistic outcome in any way. If the Klingons or Romulans, contrary to what Sybok might have thought about their inaction, did indeed send a team in to rescue their ambassadors, they would most likely have killed everyone present. If Starfleet wasn't so stupid as to send a ship that was filled with all sorts of technical problems, with a crew of old geezers at the helm, but instead sent an infiltration team of snipers, then Sybok and his followers would also have been dead.

And I won't even get into the scenario of what would have happened if the Enterprise suffered a system-wide failure and just stopped dead in space halfway to ShaKaRee.

Ask God. Sybok may think He is all-powerful and loving, but that doesn't stop Sybok from being the boss of a violent criminal gang - clearly, Sybok is not hobbled by silly notions about knowing better than his God.

And that answers the question of why Sybok needed a military ship how?

Were Sybok to ask Kirk's question, though, I'm sure God would provide the obvious satisfactory answer: "It takes a starship to get through the barrier that surrounds Me, ye of questionable faith! Uh, and that barrier is, ah, a test of that faith, yes, a test. Pass it for Me, willya?"

And Kirk's next question should have been, "So if I needed a test of faith to get through the barrier, how did the Klingons get through it?"

I can't be bothered to invent unlikely obstacles on Sybok's path to prove that his plot would have been less than optimal. "He can't know Starfleet's response?" Bullshit - Starfleet is predictable, bound by its directives and politics. "He won't do it if there's a chance it backfires?" He's gonna meet God - he won't care. "He will talk people around to letting him do it, or even doing it for him, the civilized way?" He was banished from Vulcan: no way in hell he would trust people to accept his rational arguments, or his questionable psychic practices.

All of the above is just your judgment of Sybok based on what we see in the film. You have no way of knowing just how much his rationalism is sacrificed for his quest. He's a Vulcan; he was brought up to find the logical way to handle a situation, even if he's decided to start laughing and having emotions and believing in God. His ultimate plan has no logical basis whatsoever when one starts to really scrutinize it.

1. It's said from the very beginning of the film that Sybok specifically needs a starship for his quest. We must assume that the reason for this is that the Great Barrier IS a substantial danger, and only a heavily-shielded and well-designed vessel can make it through. I'm assuming that privately-owned spaceships and transports don't have NEARLY the shielding or structural integrity as a ship classified as a starship.

That's an assumption that was possibly proven false, as a substantially smaller and less advanced ship got through just fine.

2. Sybok requests a Federation Starship knowing full-well that Starfleet will respond and that the likelihood of being able to take over that ship will be much easier than a Romulan or Klingon ship. Sybok hopes that his request on the hostage tape keeps the Klingons and Romulans out of the mix, and they will allow the UFP to go in and clean things up. In fact, he probably COUNTED on the fact that the ambassadors from the Klingon and Romulan Empires were not highly valued in those governments, and only the Federation would have the decency to attempt a rescue. Also, in hostage negotiations, if the kidnapper requests an unmarked armored car and the police negotiator shows up with something else, that's a problem.

And again, that's two huge assumptions on Sybok's part: That the Klingons and Romulans wouldn't send a ship, and that the Federation would. Again, there are easier ways to obtain a ship than creating a hostage situation.

3. We can assume from on-screen clues that Sybok's plan was to brainwash the captain and XO of the Starfleet ship sent for him. If you recall, he requested in his negotiation with Chekov for the Captain and First Officer to beam down. Then, when he learned he was under attack, he was distraught. He obviously wanted to use his powers on the primary command structure of whichever ship came for him, and then he would work outward from there. He did not anticipate a move like Kirk's from Starfleet.

And again, I will say, why couldn't he have just brainwashed any captain of any ship, instead of instigating a hostage situation in which he put his own life in danger? He's a resourceful guy. He's also a Federation citizen. He's not a criminal. He could have gotten aboard any ship he wanted and brainwashed any crew he liked, if his ease of brainwashing the Enterprise crew was any indication.

 

[Captrek]

And Kirk's next question should have been, "So if I needed a test of faith to get through the barrier, how did the Klingons get through it?"

Klaa went after a Constitution class starship with a BoP. I imagine he probably had a strong conviction that his faith in the Klingon God and commitment to His warrior ideals would propel him to victory. He certainly wasn't counting on superior firepower.

He's confronting the Federation's greatest warrior with a pea shooter. It's David and Goliath. Without his faith, he'd have no chance.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Were Sybok to ask Kirk's question, though, I'm sure God would provide the obvious satisfactory answer: "It takes a starship to get through the barrier that surrounds Me, ye of questionable faith! Uh, and that barrier is, ah, a test of that faith, yes, a test. Pass it for Me, willya?"

Can "God" create a barrier so strong that even he can't penetrate it?

"He can't know Starfleet's response?" Bullshit - Starfleet is predictable, bound by its directives and politics.

Yeah, he did seem completely shocked that the Starfleet team came in guns blazing. And there is evidence that Kirk actually went completely off-script in his response... his original orders were:

ADMIRAL BENNETT (on viewscreen): Other ships, yes, but no experienced commanders. Captain, ...I need Jim Kirk. Your orders are to proceed to Nimbus Three, assess the situation and avoid confrontation if possible. Above all, however, all get those hostages back safely.

So Kirk's first (& only) plan is the raid... way to avoid confrontation. And in fact, Sybok became aware of the assault well before the Starfleet team got to him... if he had actually wanted to harm the hostages, he had the opportunity. The only reason Kirk's plan worked as "well" as it did was because Sybok wasn't actually interested in harming anyone.

 

[Dukhat]

Klaa went after a Constitution class starship with a BoP. I imagine he probably had a strong conviction that his faith in the Klingon God and commitment to His warrior ideals would propel him to victory. He certainly wasn't counting on superior firepower.

He's confronting the Federation's greatest warrior with a pea shooter. It's David and Goliath. Without his faith, he'd have no chance.

Klingons don't have gods, because they killed them all (TNG). So Klaa has no faith in any god; hence, the alien "God" would have no effect on his beliefs.

 

[Captrek]

Klaa went after a Constitution class starship with a BoP. I imagine he probably had a strong conviction that his faith in the Klingon God and commitment to His warrior ideals would propel him to victory. He certainly wasn't counting on superior firepower.

He's confronting the Federation's greatest warrior with a pea shooter. It's David and Goliath. Without his faith, he'd have no chance.

Klingons don't have gods, because they killed them all (TNG). So Klaa has no faith in any god; hence, the alien "God" would have no effect on his beliefs.

"God" should have been put in scare quotes. They clearly have beliefs in something, including supernatural beliefs. Whether they embody the operation of their supernatural world in the will of a single Jehovah-like deity is unknown and almost beside the point. They believe that following their religion will propel them to victory. Worf's confidence that the Enterprise would defeat the Borg because the Borg lack "honor" is little different from David's confidence that he would prevail because Goliath didn't share his faith. Stick to your values and the supernatural world will intervene on your behalf.

 

[Dukhat]

"God" should have been put in scare quotes. They clearly have beliefs in something, including supernatural beliefs. Whether they embody the operation of their supernatural world in the will of a single Jehovah-like deity is unknown and almost beside the point. They believe that following their religion will propel them to victory. Worf's confidence that the Enterprise would defeat the Borg because the Borg lack "honor" is little different from David's confidence that he would prevail because Goliath didn't share his faith. Stick to your values and the supernatural world will intervene on your behalf.

Does any of that even matter, though? As far as the film is concerned, there was no evidence whatsoever that Klaa and his one other crewmember had any problems at all in getting through the barrier. Basically, they made this big deal about ships not being able to cross this barrier, and then totally forgot about that when the BoP shows up.

 

[Captrek]

"God" should have been put in scare quotes. They clearly have beliefs in something, including supernatural beliefs. Whether they embody the operation of their supernatural world in the will of a single Jehovah-like deity is unknown and almost beside the point. They believe that following their religion will propel them to victory. Worf's confidence that the Enterprise would defeat the Borg because the Borg lack "honor" is little different from David's confidence that he would prevail because Goliath didn't share his faith. Stick to your values and the supernatural world will intervene on your behalf.

Does any of that even matter, though? As far as the film is concerned, there was no evidence whatsoever that Klaa and his one other crewmember had any problems at all in getting through the barrier. Basically, they made this big deal about ships not being able to cross this barrier, and then totally forgot about that when the BoP shows up.

I'm having a little Timo-style fun, finding ways to make sense of things that don't really make sense on screen. Filling in the holes, as it were.

 

[One Lucky Red Shirt]

The romulans were having a strike n they were too drunk and hungover from romulan ale!!

We know romulans are very private and secret people. Sneaky. So it makes sense they would kick back on the sidelines and watch.

 

[Dukhat]

"God" should have been put in scare quotes. They clearly have beliefs in something, including supernatural beliefs. Whether they embody the operation of their supernatural world in the will of a single Jehovah-like deity is unknown and almost beside the point. They believe that following their religion will propel them to victory. Worf's confidence that the Enterprise would defeat the Borg because the Borg lack "honor" is little different from David's confidence that he would prevail because Goliath didn't share his faith. Stick to your values and the supernatural world will intervene on your behalf.

Does any of that even matter, though? As far as the film is concerned, there was no evidence whatsoever that Klaa and his one other crewmember had any problems at all in getting through the barrier. Basically, they made this big deal about ships not being able to cross this barrier, and then totally forgot about that when the BoP shows up.

I'm having a little Timo-style fun, finding ways to make sense of things that don't really make sense on screen. Filling in the holes, as it were.

Don't sweat it. I actually like and respect Timo, even though we tend to interpret things quite differently.

 

[Timo]

Same here - although I'm still a bit miffed about that old discussion where you insisted that the shuttle prop built for ST:ID must be for a repeat of Robau's old craft (the argument IIRC being that it looked completely unlike that one, and it's well established that TPTB don't care, so there!)

In any case, in the name of all that's holy (such as my arguments):

This isn't a discussion about personal choice or interpretations. [..] I'm saying that in a real-life situation, not one that Shatner scripted, that outcome would have had a snowball's chance in hell of actually happening the way it did in the movie.

But you are not at liberty to define "real life" for this scenario. And you can't use "real real life" as the baseline, because that doesn't include things like Vulcans and Klingons - you have to play by the rules of Star Trek.

And those rules, as derived from the rest of Star Trek and not just this movie's plotline, support what Sybok did...

If the Klingons or Romulans, contrary to what Sybok might have thought about their inaction...

..Yadda yadda. Yes, I get it. But those are low-probability outcomes in the Star Trek universe. Sybok would be fully justified in relying on the odds being on his side. If "But what if...?" of such low probability and significance were allowed to be an obstacle, Kirk wouldn't have sailed to Nimbus III because he might run into a Space Amoeba en route, be turned into his evil twin, or miss out on a really great dinner date.

And that answers the question of why Sybok needed a military ship how?

That tells you that it's perfectly legitimate that God told Sybok He needed a starship. Sybok need not have known himself. The audience certainly has no obligation to know.

And Kirk's next question should have been, "So if I needed a test of faith to get through the barrier, how did the Klingons get through it?"

Huh? Nobody is asking Kirk anything. We're talking about why Sybok would agree to providing a starship. Doubletalk from God would suffice just fine, and Sybok would have no way of knowing whether the specs from God would be valid or fake.

All of the above is just your judgment of Sybok based on what we see in the film. You have no way of knowing just how much his rationalism is sacrificed for his quest. He's a Vulcan; he was brought up to find the logical way to handle a situation, even if he's decided to start laughing and having emotions and believing in God. His ultimate plan has no logical basis whatsoever when one starts to really scrutinize it.

Depends solely on who that "one" is, really.

That's an assumption that was possibly proven false, as a substantially smaller and less advanced ship got through just fine.

Irrelevant as such - because God would want something that assuredly gets through, and would demand a starship.

And again, that's two huge assumptions on Sybok's part: That the Klingons and Romulans wouldn't send a ship, and that the Federation would.

Yes, that's like assuming that Putin would tell that Crimea belongs to Russia and that the West is responsible for the unrest in Ukraine.

Again, there are easier ways to obtain a ship than creating a hostage situation.

Name one. But first mind the catch here.

The problem is that the acquisition has to fit within the greater plan: Starfleet can't immediately grab the ship back, Klingons can't shoot her down, the ship has to go to the Barrier and to Sha Ka Ree, etc. That's how the plan gets refined from the generic to something that actually fits the bill. Compare:

And again, I will say, why couldn't he have just brainwashed any captain of any ship, instead of instigating a hostage situation in which he put his own life in danger? He's a resourceful guy. He's also a Federation citizen. He's not a criminal. He could have gotten aboard any ship he wanted and brainwashed any crew he liked, if his ease of brainwashing the Enterprise crew was any indication.

The Nimbus Rescue Plan hedges the bets in many splendid ways:

a) Not only does Sybok get a chance to brainwash starship personnel, but he assuredly gets his own Trojan horses (the ambassadors) aboard the starship even if everything else fails.
b) Nimbus is out in the sticks, safe from interference from all three parties and various random factors.
c) Nimbus appears close to the Barrier, as the route there doesn't bring Sybok and his followers close to any particular hazards, interceptors or whatnot.
d) If Sybok gets to where he's going, he has official representatives from all the major governments with him!

All this comes on top of the generic scenario. Why not get the extras for free?

Timo Saloniemi