Spoilers TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread

[JeBuS]

rfmcdpei, The Andorians working toward a solution does not negate the fact that the Genome was in itself the Deus Ex Machina. If it had been the Andorians who puzzled out the ancient knowledge rather than Bashir, it still would have qualified as a Deus Ex Machina. It was a contrived all-powerful solution to a contrived all-encompassing doom.

Granted, by using the political maneuvering of the Andorian rulers to withhold parts of the Genome, the drama was ratcheted up by TPTB. But the trickle of knowledge from the available godly pool of such does not negate the fact that it was a godly pool of knowledge that set everything right (in regards to the Andorian problem).

 

[rfmcdpei]

rfmcdpei, The Andorians working toward a solution does not negate the fact that the Genome was in itself the Deus Ex Machina. If it had been the Andorians who puzzled out the ancient knowledge rather than Bashir, it still would have qualified as a Deus Ex Machina.

Not really. Two years ago, in actual time and in in-universe time, the Shedai meta-genome was established as a very promising potential solution to Andorian fertility issues. A decade ago, the idea of introducing non-Andorian DNA into the Andorian gene pool to reverse Andorian demographic issues was introduced.

There is nothing sudden or abrupt in the particular solution to Andorian fertility issues. As I said above, the only thing that is sudden and abrupt is the sharp worsening in the situation. (Maybe this is a legacy of the attack by the Borg, who knows?)

It was a contrived all-powerful solution to a contrived all-encompassing doom.

The Vanguard series did describe the Shedai meta-genome as an immensely powerful and capable technology that can be used to achieve remarkable things, yes. That's because it is an immensely powerful and capable technology that can be used to achieve remarkable things.

If, in a science-fiction setting like Star Trek's where advanced technologies are capable of remarkable achievements, you automatically define all such technologies--including technologies that had already been described, in some detail and at some time in the past--as deus ex machinae, you're going to find them everywhere. This may well be a problem for you, and not only because you're misunderstanding what's going on.

Granted, by using the political maneuvering of the Andorian rulers to withhold parts of the Genome, the drama was ratcheted up by TPTB. But the trickle of knowledge from the available godly pool of such does not negate the fact that it was a godly pool of knowledge that set everything right (in regards to the Andorian problem).

Radical technological breakthroughs were needed, sure. In the context of the universe, the ability to make use of the Shedai knowledge came about as a consequence of earlier, independent work done by Shar and others in making use of Yrythny DNA.

Absent the Shedai meta-genome, what would have happened? Perhaps the Yrythny DNA might have been made the basis of more effective treatments--it had achieved some success, just not enough. Quite possibly the Andorian species would have been set for extinction, regardless.

 

[JeBuS]

Okay, I see what you're saying about the "abruptness" (or lack thereof) of the solution. Maybe this is a point I hadn't adequately addressed earlier, and perhaps I only have myself to blame for why so many seem to be misunderstanding me. My original point about it taking Bashir only a week to solve the problem was meant to point out the abruptness of it all. But I didn't describe why that mattered, until hinting at it in my last post. So let me try again.

Putting my "in-universe" cap on:
CoL firmly established that the only reason why the Genome solution wasn't already abrupt was because the solution was artificially drawn out by the Andorian government. If the Andorian scientists had full access to the Genome, as the Tholians wanted and provided, the solution, as they said, should have been relatively straightforward. The Typhon Pact folks were even wondering at how incompetent the Andorians were, since they couldn't figure it out.

Putting my "meta" cap on:
The only reason the Genome solution wasn't abrupt was because of an artificially imposed pacing device in order to ratchet up the drama. As soon as the Genome made a full appearance, its powers as Deus Ex Machina were revealed.

 

[VDCNI]

Again the disagreements within Andorian society about how to deal with this crisis have been long established - there is nothing artificialy imposed about the party in power hindering access to the Genome. We've seen that to many Andorians they would rather never regain their fertility over meddling in their biology - those kind of arguments take place our world as well - are they artifical?

 

[JeBuS]

Again the disagreements within Andorian society about how to deal with this crisis have been long established - there is nothing artificialy imposed about the party in power hindering access to the Genome. We've seen that to many Andorians they would rather never regain their fertility over meddling in their biology - those kind of arguments take place our world as well - are they artifical?

I never said the societal issues were the Deus Ex Machina. They're just the disguise used to cover the obviousness of the DEM.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The godly Meta-Genome was withhold by the government because it didn't want to make the opposition look good (a plot device introduced in the current book).
Little to do with internal andorian arguments about genetic engineering.

 

[VDCNI]

Again the disagreements within Andorian society about how to deal with this crisis have been long established - there is nothing artificialy imposed about the party in power hindering access to the Genome. We've seen that to many Andorians they would rather never regain their fertility over meddling in their biology - those kind of arguments take place our world as well - are they artifical?

I never said the societal issues were the Deus Ex Machina. They're just the disguise used to cover the obviousness of the DEM.

Yes and as I showed there was nothing artifical about them so how were they being artificially used to cover up the non existent Deus Ex Machina?

 

[VDCNI]

The godly Meta-Genome was withhold by the government because it didn't want to make the opposition look good (a plot device introduced in the current book).
Little to do with internal andorian arguments about genetic engineering.

It was perfectly in line with what we've previously seen of Andorian society and the themes of the novel.

 

[JeBuS]

I never said the societal issues were the Deus Ex Machina. They're just the disguise used to cover the obviousness of the DEM.

Yes and as I showed there was nothing artifical about them so how were they being artificially used to cover up the non existent Deus Ex Machina?

The Andorian political issue was artificial (in a meta sense) because it was intended only to slow the solution offered by the Deus Ex Machina.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

In a meta sense, Star Trek isn't real and everything in every book is artificial.

 

[Reanok]

I found this novel in the bookstore yesterday,I think it's odd they have Revelation and Dust but Una's novel The Crimson shadow wasn't on the shelves like other people have mentioned in another thread.I bought this book and can't wait to read it.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Can anyone explain to me, what’s the marketing reasoning behind the release of these books on Tuesdays!!??

What? You don't play Fizzbin?

I finally finished I Am Malala this past weekend, and started on TF/CL. And I've already registered who I want to see deck Bacco's interim successor, based on the scene with the freighter; that should tell you how far I am into it. Not bad, especially given my loathing of both Section 31 and novels mired in the politics of self-destruction for political gain. Nice to see at least a few people risking life and career to do the profoundly right thing, for the profoundly right reasons.

I think the biggest reason why I find novels mired in the politics of self-destruction for political gain so depressing is because I already see enough of that in real life. Still, the very worst ST book (which this is far from) is far better than a certain dreadful piece of profoundly implausible, plot-hole-riddled, politically mired star dreck that is Paul Gillebaard's first published novel (and I hope it turns out to be his last) (Thank God I only, as I recall, paid the "remaindering" price for it!).

 

[Booji]

Above average

This was a really good book and my favorite by David Mack. Not quite the masterpiece 'The Crimson Shadow' was, but way better than 'Revelation & Dust'.

I thought the first half was a bit slow, but the second half flowed real well and I had trouble putting the book down. Bashir was written spot on. Not a fan of Sarina for many of the reasons already posted. There were quite a few laugh out loud moments I enjoyed. President Clarke was a bit over the top, but I could live with how he was written.

Really curious to see where the series goes next, especially who Akaar has in mind to help him out. Again, a very good read and a lot of fun.

 

[JeBuS]

In a meta sense, Star Trek isn't real and everything in every book is artificial.

You should spoiler that... don't want to ruin it for anybody.

 

[Defcon]

And The Fall is now 2 out of 3 in the NY Times Bestseller department:

Just got the news from my editor: My novel A CEREMONY OF LOSSES is a @nytimes mass market paperback bestseller! Thanks, STAR TREK fans!

Source: https://twitter.com/DavidAlanMack/status/398223407684124672

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Anyone care to spoil me on what the deal is with Captain Unverzagt and the USS warspite? i asked before but it got buried by discussion on the meta-genome. it's going to be a while before i can read the books and really eager to know about this aspect of the plot. any chance of fisticuffs between say the aventine and the warspite?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Anyone care to spoil me on what the deal is with Captain Unverzagt and the USS warspite? i asked before but it got buried by discussion on the meta-genome. it's going to be a while before i can read the books and really eager to know about this aspect of the plot. any chance of fisticuffs between say the aventine and the warspite?

Spoiler: Captain Unverzagt

The Warspite is one of three ships sent to intercept Bashir before he reaches Andor. She fires on Bashir's ship to prevent it from entering the planet's atmosphere. It's revealed that Captain Unversagt is acting on direct orders from President Ishan to arrest Bashir after Ezri is unable to keep him in custody.

Admiral Akaar confronts Ishan about his circumvention of the chain-of-command because Federation law calls for any orders from the President's office to be handled by Akaar's office and issued from there, not given to field officers directly.

--Sran

 

[Thrawn]

This was a really solid entry into the series; about on par with Cold Equations, for me. Nothing profoundly world-changing, and with a couple quibbles, but built around satisfying character arcs with real consequences. I love that it doesn't turn out ok for our sacrificial heroes at the end; I'm excited to see what happens next for them.

I did find the ending to be a little too pat, though. I was happy with the reproductive crisis ending, but Andor rejoining the Federation AAAAND one of their politicians entering the ring for President right away just seemed a bit hurried. I could well have believed an ending where the crisis was resolved, the progressives took over, and then said "the Federation just tried to stop this cure and was also being petty with ridiculous blockades... screw that" anyway. Maybe have Andor petition to join after Ishan is dealt with after book 5, or something like that. Just seemed to be trying a little too hard to put a bow on it at the end. After Ishan screwed with Andor for a whole novel, I was expecting them to at least mention it.

That said, it's probably about time our heroes actually win one. The first run of four Typhon Pact novels was pretty relentlessly gloomy. It's nice to see Bashir with the fire of moral conviction again, and it's nice to have something actually helpful to the Federation end up happening, even if against the wishes of its leader.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Okay, I see what you're saying about the "abruptness" (or lack thereof) of the solution. Maybe this is a point I hadn't adequately addressed earlier, and perhaps I only have myself to blame for why so many seem to be misunderstanding me. My original point about it taking Bashir only a week to solve the problem was meant to point out the abruptness of it all. But I didn't describe why that mattered, until hinting at it in my last post. So let me try again.

Putting my "in-universe" cap on:
CoL firmly established that the only reason why the Genome solution wasn't already abrupt was because the solution was artificially drawn out by the Andorian government. If the Andorian scientists had full access to the Genome, as the Tholians wanted and provided, the solution, as they said, should have been relatively straightforward. The Typhon Pact folks were even wondering at how incompetent the Andorians were, since they couldn't figure it out.

This isn't a deus ex machina, then.

Putting my "meta" cap on:
The only reason the Genome solution wasn't abrupt was because of an artificially imposed pacing device in order to ratchet up the drama. As soon as the Genome made a full appearance, its powers as Deus Ex Machina were revealed.

It was a device that was rooted in Andorian culture, something that any technological solution would necessarily have to contend with.

Again the disagreements within Andorian society about how to deal with this crisis have been long established - there is nothing artificialy imposed about the party in power hindering access to the Genome. We've seen that to many Andorians they would rather never regain their fertility over meddling in their biology - those kind of arguments take place our world as well - are they artifical?

I never said the societal issues were the Deus Ex Machina. They're just the disguise used to cover the obviousness of the DEM.

Well, no.

1. The strong hostility of a sizable number of Andorians to any technological involvement in their fertility crisis, particularly anything that would lead to an alteration of the Andorian gene pool, was established at least as early as Jarman's 2004 novella Paradigm, set in 2376. This hostility has been a consistent theme in novels which make use of the Andorians to one degree or another.

2. Is this hostility unrealistic? No. The Roman Catholic Church, for one, has gone on record as opposing assisted reproductive technologies, even in circumstances where ART is the only way that a couple can conceive children. This, sadly, has influenced public policy in some jurisdictions where the Church has traditionally been strong.

This hostility is not part of a deus ex machina. This hostility, rather, is part of an intricately painted picture of a civilization facing existential issues, in large part because of the hostile attitudes of many among it towards change. This is not sudden or abrupt, but rather, an established feature.

 

[rfmcdpei]

This was a really solid entry into the series; about on par with Cold Equations, for me. Nothing profoundly world-changing, and with a couple quibbles, but build around satisfying character arcs with real consequences. I love that it doesn't turn out ok for our sacrificial heroes at the end; I'm excited to see what happens next for them.

Agreed. I do fear for Dax, too.

I did find the ending to be a little too pat, though. I was happy with the reproductive crisis ending, but Andor rejoining the Federation AAAAND one of their politicians entering the ring for President right away just seemed a bit hurried. I could well have believed an ending where the crisis was resolved, the progressives took over, and then said "the Federation just tried to stop this cure and was also being petty with ridiculous blockades... screw that" anyway. Maybe have Andor petition to join after Ishan is dealt with after book 5, or something like that. Just seemed to be trying a little too hard to put a bow on it at the end. After Ishan screwed with Andor for a whole novel, I was expecting them to at least mention it.

I'd be tempted to explain it by suggestion that this was also embedded in Andorian internal politics. The anti-Federation factions might plausibly have taken much of the heat, what with the Andorian terrorism in George's duology that led to the destruction of Deep Space 9 and all.