Terminator 2 overrated?
- Thread starter EJA
- Start date
While I can agree that T2 is held in higher esteem than it deserves, I really don't get saying the first one is better. T1 is T2 with less characterization, less story, less interest, and – yes – less action. I feel like the sequel is a much-needed second draft of the first.
Believe it or not Terminator 2 is not my favorite film of the series (I actually prefer The Terminator like many); however, I don't think that it was overrated.
I can understand how people think that The Terminator and T2 are the same film. The franchise features multiple chases with the bad guy coming for the good ones. I can see the same though in a number of thrillers. I don't agree that their stories are the same though. The Terminator is mainly about trying to run from the enemy and that you don't control your destiny. T2 is the opposite of that (at least in the final acts). In T2 the Connors take control over their destiny and show that they control it - T3 screwed that up but that's another story. It's amazing to me though how the idea for T2 came to Cameron. It all stemmed from a deleted scene in the first film where Sarah wanted to go after Cyberdyne instead of run from the Terminator. I always found that interesting.
I can understand some of the complaints, but I don't agree with the overrated belief (which I'm glad for because if everyone agreed with me life would be far less interesting).
I can understand how people think that The Terminator and T2 are the same film. The franchise features multiple chases with the bad guy coming for the good ones. I can see the same though in a number of thrillers. I don't agree that their stories are the same though. The Terminator is mainly about trying to run from the enemy and that you don't control your destiny. T2 is the opposite of that (at least in the final acts). In T2 the Connors take control over their destiny and show that they control it - T3 screwed that up but that's another story. It's amazing to me though how the idea for T2 came to Cameron. It all stemmed from a deleted scene in the first film where Sarah wanted to go after Cyberdyne instead of run from the Terminator. I always found that interesting.
I can understand some of the complaints, but I don't agree with the overrated belief (which I'm glad for because if everyone agreed with me life would be far less interesting).
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
I think that the T-1000 is the best part.
James Cameron seemed to sit down and really think what could one do with CGI and came up with the great concept of a liquid metal terminator, and then made sure he thought of all the neatest, coolest things it could possibly do and he did them.
I bought the DVD last year and watched the movie again for the first time in 10 years ( I first saw it in the theater at age 17) and I don't feel like I ever need to watch it again though. But I could easily skim through it just to watch the T-1000 parts.
It's a certain feeling you get from seeing a movie on opening weekend that you know nothing about because your 100% spoiler free. I never even saw the trailer.
With the internet that era is over now.
Just maybe you not old enough to understand?
RobertScorpio
Pariah
Obviously, to each there own. I can't tell you your opinion is wrong.
However, your opinion is wrong
in all seriousness, I disagree about the story and acting, and feel the special effects all serve the story, not the other way around as happened in both T3 and T4.
I think that the movie shows us a Sarah Connor who is very different from the T1 Sarah, and in a believable way. I think Eddie Furlong gives a surprisingly layered and adult performance... I believe he comes off as smart beyond his years, with hints of the great man he needs to be, while still showing that this is a very, very damaged little boy. Finally the ever impressive Robert Patrick creates a character that is obviously from the same factory as Arnold with similar mannerisms like the way they turn their head before the body, yet is something creepy and wholly new.
Storywise, I think this movie has 3 of the all time great action sequences (the big sewer chase, the Cyberdyne shootout, and the steel mill finale)... and for me they all feel like they flow naturally from the plot. I also have come to love the ambiguity they build up in the first act where you are not sure which Terminator is the hero (in fact, I think it was a HUUUGE mistake in the initial marketing to spoil that Arnold was the hero this time).
As far as the effects, I love the mix of practical and digital they used to mask the limitations of the early CGI... and apart from some bad animation, feel that the overall effects compare favorably to movies being released even now.
I know many will argue that T2 copies some of the beats from T1, and I won't disagree. I do think T1 is a more original story and a better script overall... however I think T1 suffers a bit from the very cheap sounding score (The work is good, just listen to T2. It's almost the same score but they actually had some money... In T1 it sounds like one guy on a synthesizer in a basement), as well as some not great acting from Michael Biehn. The stop motion effect also just don't hold up very well ( I have the same problem with Jason and the Argonauts). Overall, the two movies are a wash for me, I would rate both a 9.5 out of 10 and both in my personal top 25 favorite movies.
Totally agree here..T2 and Aliens are, I think, Cameron's greatest SCIFI movies to date.
Rob
I still find time to note the tinfoil T-1000 near the end and the backdrop for the Pet truck vs Cryo truck chase
I'm a bit suprised that T1 seems to be more liked than T2 here. I believe there was a ratings thread about all the Terminator movies a while back and seem to remember T2 easily coming out tops.
Anyway, I do prefer the first one. If I had to compare the two I'd say the first one is like a well-trained athlete - not a gram of unnecessary fat, just sleek and powerful. It's a film that's reduced to the max, so to speak. And that's one of the reasons it's so effective.
The second one is more like, well, like Arnold, really. An overblown bodybuilder of a movie that can barely walk. Having said that, I do like the movie quite a bit. I do think that it retains much of the feeling of dread and hopelessnes that is unique to the Terminator atmosphere created in the first film. One of the things that sticks in my mind the most, for example, is that opening sequence on the crowded highway. The blistering heat and the disturbing 'music' foreshadowing the nuclear war to come.
I also think the T-1000 is an amazing bad guy. He's menacing both in how he's played as well as in what he's capable of. I think the basic idea of a liquid metal opponent that can shift shape is great and it's extremely well executed here as well.
In terms of acting, I think that just about everyone is spot-on for what they're needed to do. Arnie is Arnie which works well in being the Terminator, I think. And I think that Hamilton, Patrick and Furlong all do great work with their respective parts.
What does let the movie down IMHO and what makes the first one better is much of the whole Terminator as daddy banter. The basic idea is ok. But I think what really lets it down is how the movie hits you over the head with it, among other things by having Connor point out this quasi relationship. If it's meant to be in the film, I think it's someting audience should be able to perceive for themselves. I also think it doesn't require the type of humour we get in some parts of the film which is pretty hit or miss (the extended thumb at the very end, for example, is just an epic fail in my mind and really lets the film down).
Interestingly, when it comes down to re-watching T1 and T2 I find myself popping in 2 more often because I simply find it a bit easier to digest. The first one can be really tough to sit through simply because it's intense in its portrayal of fear, battle and the chase. It's just relentlessly dark and powerful, I think, whereas the second one is lighter in many parts and allows you to simply gloat at some of the action scenes for pure entertainment value if you choose (which doesn't really work in the first one, I think).
Anyway, I do prefer the first one. If I had to compare the two I'd say the first one is like a well-trained athlete - not a gram of unnecessary fat, just sleek and powerful. It's a film that's reduced to the max, so to speak. And that's one of the reasons it's so effective.
The second one is more like, well, like Arnold, really. An overblown bodybuilder of a movie that can barely walk. Having said that, I do like the movie quite a bit. I do think that it retains much of the feeling of dread and hopelessnes that is unique to the Terminator atmosphere created in the first film. One of the things that sticks in my mind the most, for example, is that opening sequence on the crowded highway. The blistering heat and the disturbing 'music' foreshadowing the nuclear war to come.
I also think the T-1000 is an amazing bad guy. He's menacing both in how he's played as well as in what he's capable of. I think the basic idea of a liquid metal opponent that can shift shape is great and it's extremely well executed here as well.
In terms of acting, I think that just about everyone is spot-on for what they're needed to do. Arnie is Arnie which works well in being the Terminator, I think. And I think that Hamilton, Patrick and Furlong all do great work with their respective parts.
What does let the movie down IMHO and what makes the first one better is much of the whole Terminator as daddy banter. The basic idea is ok. But I think what really lets it down is how the movie hits you over the head with it, among other things by having Connor point out this quasi relationship. If it's meant to be in the film, I think it's someting audience should be able to perceive for themselves. I also think it doesn't require the type of humour we get in some parts of the film which is pretty hit or miss (the extended thumb at the very end, for example, is just an epic fail in my mind and really lets the film down).
Interestingly, when it comes down to re-watching T1 and T2 I find myself popping in 2 more often because I simply find it a bit easier to digest. The first one can be really tough to sit through simply because it's intense in its portrayal of fear, battle and the chase. It's just relentlessly dark and powerful, I think, whereas the second one is lighter in many parts and allows you to simply gloat at some of the action scenes for pure entertainment value if you choose (which doesn't really work in the first one, I think).
Like many people are saying, it's probably due to the fact that most of the really memorable T2 moments involve humor, and most of the truly memorable T1 moments involve badassery.
T1 has, "Are you Sarah Connah?" BANG BANG BANG BANG. That stunned the shit out of me the first time I saw it.
T2 has "Asta La Vista, Baby."
Not that T1 is utterly without humor. It does have "I'll be back," VROOOOOM SMASH which is probably both the humor high point AND the badassery high point of the series.
I'll grant that T2 has the entire mental hospital sequence, which is amazing. I think I like it because it includes all the minor character mental hospital employees, who get to go from "This bitch is crazy" to "Holy shit that cop just melted himself to pass through the security bars!" T2 doesn't have enough of that, frankly. I think T1 did a much better job of establishing the little minor characters. The cops in T1 actually have something to do besides show up and get shot in the leg, for example. When Arnold is strolling through the police station killing everyone, you actually know some of the characters there.
I mostly agree with you. In my view, the first two were great, the third one was good (even if it was a slight remake of 2 with an ending that gutted the ending of 2), and the fourth was shit.
Thankfully, we had the TV series, which was good, and sadly, canceled too soon.
^^^I've been rewatching S2 of TSSC and although it meandered a bit during the first half of the season I'm really enjoying it. Season 3 had so many possibilities...there were a lot of directions they could have gone in after the S2 finale.
Terminator 1 is your basic 80's scifi movie. If it weren't for Arnold it would be stashed away with all the other movies.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
I think this is the general belief. I'm one of those SCIFI fans who pretty much is in the middle. And from what I can gather? 1 and 2 are flip flopped as to which one is the better of the two...#3 is good...#4 sucked. Some may disagree with that conclusion, but oh well, cant please everyone.
In a recent battle between myself and five good friends (while watching Blade Runner) we all debated as to what is the best scifi movie of all time...and Aliens won. We each secretly selected our top three and then revealed our selections. And by attaching point values to where they finished, we came to the conclusion that
Aliens was #1
The Day the Earth Stood Still (orginal) was #2
and 2001 was #3.
Strangely enough, I went with Aliens--Dark City and Empire Strikes Back (being the light weight of the group)..but accepted the final count..
But I did note that BLADE RUNNER finished BELOW Dark City.
Rob
From a personal standpoint, I just didn't like the whole predestination paradox of the first movie. Maybe it was a more shocking and original idea back in 1984, but as someone that has grown up on sci-fi in the 90s and 00s I've grown tired of that plot device.
T2 was about undoing that whole concept from the first movie and saying that the future isn't inevitable, our choices can change things, so immediately it was off to a good start with me. T2 also had the confrontation between Sarah and Dyson, a scene where a woman trying to save billions of lives tries to kill an innocent family man who hasn't done anything wrong. I honestly didn't know what the right thing to do in that scene was, it was a moral grey-area that was far more interesting to me than anything in T1. Yes, it was a big action movie at its core, but at least it tried to be a little more than that.
Speaking of big dumb action movies, T3 was made. That movie was just a series of random explosions that didn't get the memo of what T2 was all about. What a waste of an evening.
I'd rank them like this.
T1: 6/10
T2: 8/10
T3: 3/10
T4: Yeah right, as if I'm going to waste my time watching this.
T2 was about undoing that whole concept from the first movie and saying that the future isn't inevitable, our choices can change things, so immediately it was off to a good start with me. T2 also had the confrontation between Sarah and Dyson, a scene where a woman trying to save billions of lives tries to kill an innocent family man who hasn't done anything wrong. I honestly didn't know what the right thing to do in that scene was, it was a moral grey-area that was far more interesting to me than anything in T1. Yes, it was a big action movie at its core, but at least it tried to be a little more than that.
Speaking of big dumb action movies, T3 was made. That movie was just a series of random explosions that didn't get the memo of what T2 was all about. What a waste of an evening.
I'd rank them like this.
T1: 6/10
T2: 8/10
T3: 3/10
T4: Yeah right, as if I'm going to waste my time watching this.
Speaking strictly for myself, I think number 2 was the better film (even though 1 was just as good), and effectively ended the story in a satisfying way, making three and four unnecessary. But, I enjoyed the TV show alot. And, my two best friends can't seem to agree on the subject. One agrees with me, that 2 should have been the end, while the other thinks that anything with the Terminator name on it is a good thing. He was the only one of us who actually enjoyed Salvation.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
From a personal standpoint, I just didn't like the whole predestination paradox of the first movie. Maybe it was a more shocking and original idea back in 1984, but as someone that has grown up on sci-fi in the 90s and 00s I've grown tired of that plot device.
T2 was about undoing that whole concept from the first movie and saying that the future isn't inevitable, our choices can change things, so immediately it was off to a good start with me. T2 also had the confrontation between Sarah and Dyson, a scene where a woman trying to save billions of lives tries to kill an innocent family man who hasn't done anything wrong. I honestly didn't know what the right thing to do in that scene was, it was a moral grey-area that was far more interesting to me than anything in T1. Yes, it was a big action movie at its core, but at least it tried to be a little more than that.
Speaking of big dumb action movies, T3 was made. That movie was just a series of random explosions that didn't get the memo of what T2 was all about. What a waste of an evening.
I'd rank them like this.
T1: 6/10
T2: 8/10
T3: 3/10
T4: Yeah right, as if I'm going to waste my time watching this.
I'm not sure whether T1 or T2 has the bigger paradox issues.
T1 has a potential paradox issue - in that if the machines' plan succeeds, they would never have known they needed to attempt their plan. But since the machines' plan fails, no paradox is ever actually triggered. So it's not so much a paradox problem as it's a "Wow that's one stupid computer" problem.
T2 has overt paradox issues - but then those paradox issues are removed by T3.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Terminator 2 is the best of the franchise and amazing movie on its own. It's really good, ESPECIALLY the director's cut; there's no other way to watch it. 9/10; Director's Cut: 9.8/10
The Terminator is equally and amazing peace of work, but I put it just below T2. T2 has a bit expanded story, with some more drama in it, and just the right amount of humor added to it to let you breathe here and there. 9/10
Terminator 3... it's just mediocre. It's a remake of T2... only much worse, much less drama, with far too much humor, and with complete idiocies. I still can't get over John Connor being surprised a machine is built in an automated factory, and being surprised he's not the Terminator he watched melt down in T2, especially given earlier in the movie when he asked Arnoid if he's here to kill him it is shown he perfectly understands this. It throws me out of the movie every time I watch it. The idiocy of the TX apparently having lost the ability to identify people by picture, despite the fact she's got more and better pictures than the T2 and the T1000 is just nuts as well. 7/10
Terminator Salvation: fucking grade A movie! Back to form as far as I'm concerned. Not quite as good as the first two, but still way up there. Finally movie set in the post-apocalyptic movie just rocked. The story was solid, though it missed a few things here and there. The reason why it isn't an 9 and only an 8.5, is mostly due to the showdown between Marcus and Skynet. Instead of him simply ripping out something form the back of his head, it really should be (clear/clearer) that Skynet is trying to take over via the implant, and he has to struggle against the attempt to take over before ripping it out. 8.5/10
The Terminator is equally and amazing peace of work, but I put it just below T2. T2 has a bit expanded story, with some more drama in it, and just the right amount of humor added to it to let you breathe here and there. 9/10
Terminator 3... it's just mediocre. It's a remake of T2... only much worse, much less drama, with far too much humor, and with complete idiocies. I still can't get over John Connor being surprised a machine is built in an automated factory, and being surprised he's not the Terminator he watched melt down in T2, especially given earlier in the movie when he asked Arnoid if he's here to kill him it is shown he perfectly understands this. It throws me out of the movie every time I watch it. The idiocy of the TX apparently having lost the ability to identify people by picture, despite the fact she's got more and better pictures than the T2 and the T1000 is just nuts as well. 7/10
Terminator Salvation: fucking grade A movie! Back to form as far as I'm concerned. Not quite as good as the first two, but still way up there. Finally movie set in the post-apocalyptic movie just rocked. The story was solid, though it missed a few things here and there. The reason why it isn't an 9 and only an 8.5, is mostly due to the showdown between Marcus and Skynet. Instead of him simply ripping out something form the back of his head, it really should be (clear/clearer) that Skynet is trying to take over via the implant, and he has to struggle against the attempt to take over before ripping it out. 8.5/10
RobertScorpio
Pariah
^^ you had me until the end. Salvation was boring movie that relied too much on CGI and not enough on story. You want to fall asleep in a hurry, and can't find TMP to get the job done? Then watch Salvation...
I rank them
2
1
3
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4
Rob
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