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Temporal Wars?

Hando

Commander
Red Shirt
I am trying to wrap my mind around the idea of Temporal Wars.
The last we heard in the 31st century we had temporal agents trying to preserve the Temporal Accords during the Temporal Cold War.
The Cold war turned hot, but this was reset, so it never happened.

But now in the 32nd century we had Temporal Wars with Time soldiers and the Temporal Accords banned all time travel and people destroyed all means of time travel.

I understand that the Temporal Accords could evolve "in time" and that the final accords prohibit all temporal and interdimensional travel - to a point that the Federation would chose to euthanize a person rather than to send them to a different universe...

But just when did the Temporal Wars happen? And how could they have made such an impact as if they were WWIII on a galactic scale that the Milky Way sentients would go the Treehouse of Horror route to not only ban, but also destroy all means of time travel?
I feel that I am missing something, I just do not how this conflict could have happened between Daniel's active period and the Burn...
 
My take is that the Temporal Wars was what was going on in the rest of the galaxy and timeline(s) when Vosk took over the White House in ENT: "Storm Front" and the end of that episode was the end of it. We saw only a few tiny snippets of it in ENT.
 
That's my take on it. For most Enterprise's run, it's "cold" because future sides in the war aren't dirtying their own hands. They're manipulating races native to the 22nd Century into waging war on each other, from a distance. Up until the century Discovery is in, history probably records the Xindi attack on Earth but probably nothing about how Sphere Builders prompted it.

The last two episodes are clearly the beginning of full scale, wholesale history rewriting... with worse Lovecraftian reality shifts we can't comprehend to follow.
 
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That's my take on it. For most Enterprise's run, it's "cold" because future sides in the war aren't dirtying their own hands. They're manipulating races native to the 22nd Century into waging war on each other, from a distance. Up until the century Discovery is in, history probably records the Xindi attack on Earth but probably nothing about how Sphere Builders prompted it.

The last two episodes are clearly the beginning of full scale, wholesale history rewriting... with worse Lovecraftian reality shifts we can't comprehend to follow.

We know from admiral Vance that the Temporal Wars lasted for most of the 31st century.
This would indicate that incursions to ENT time frame (mid 22nd century) were relatively few (at least those concerning Humans and Starfleet of that era) - but that doesn't mean other incursions to that time frame didn't happen (in fact the presence of future guy who worked with the Suliban closely is an indication they did, not to mention the Sphere Builders).

What we saw with Vosk (and what Daniels confirmed) was effectively the cold war turning hot... but it could have happened earlier in the 31nd century and lasted longer than what we saw. Daniels' appearing on NX-01 in the disfigured shape was a side-effect and would be an equivalent of a soldier suffering massive injuries after longer period on the front lines.

In the 31st century, the Temporal Wars were now going strong, and probably lasted a while before the events in Storm Front Part 2 finally concluded and history was restored. Daniels also mentioned that for the effects to ripple through the timeline takes... well, time (could be that this sometimes happens when you mess with history using time travel technology).

Its a bit of a mixed bag when you think about it. The Temporal Wars are part of history. Even if Daniels records indicated that the NX-01 shouldn't have survived in season 1, by that point, a lot of changes already occurred via temporal changes during the 'cold' part of the war or someone may have fed him false data.
To this effect, I don't think we can conclusively say there is an 'original timeline' without the temporal wars or incursions whatsoever - a causal loop basically (like the one with the Borg going back in time to try and prevent Zephram Cochrane Warp flight).
 
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I think if they ever show the Temporal Wars -- whether it's through Discovery or another series -- they should bring in some Doctor Who writers to guest-write it. Might as well make it The Mother Of All Time Wars.
Doctor Who never knew how to deal with it either though. I recall Day of the Doctor, where it's depicted as... ground warfare. THIS is how I imagine it being from the "little people" but they'd struggle to depict it in live action.
 
Well with Voyager making temporal shields for the krenium. The federation would have a protected archive of how the past "should" have happened.
So the war was up and down time hostile trying to change for better, fed trying to keep it as is "though Kirk and Janeway did change stuff and no time agents intervened"
 
Actually, I guess that it could also include ground warfare. My feeling is, that this was the primary reason why the Guardian left, not just that there was a long queue for people to use him, as the is the poor man's time machine. But rather because various factions tried to take over the place/planet where he was located. And it was this never-ending conflict that made him give up.
 
Well with Voyager making temporal shields for the krenium. The federation would have a protected archive of how the past "should" have happened.

While Voyager DID develop temporal shields to fight off the Krenim, those modifications ceased to exist when the Krenim Temporal ship was destroyed (and Janeway ordered all temporal shields to be lowered so the timeline resets itself and the last year from her perspective never happens).

That said, this demonstrates the premise that the Federation DOES have the ability to create temporal shields to protect against changes in the timeline... however, that doesn't eliminate the possibility that Daniels records weren't falsified or altered by someone else.
Its simply possible that as an operative he had access to specific data/information, and not all of it would necessarily be open to him.

Plus, its common for spies and covert agents to sabotage databases (aka, alter them) for the enemy.
I'm just saying its possible that there wasn't any 'temporal' meddling to the databases... just your run of the mill tampering.

So the war was up and down time hostile trying to change for better, fed trying to keep it as is "though Kirk and Janeway did change stuff and no time agents intervened"

Kirk and Janeway changing stuff isn't much of a big deal because most of those temporal incursions were effectively 'meant to happen' (for the future to unfold the way it did).
I think the 29th century Federation only 'intervenes' if the earlier time frames SF officers/ships cannot fix something without their assistance.

In the novels for example (which aren't canon), admiral Janeway's time travel stunt to bring Voyager home earlier was never stopped because it was mentioned that another outcome wouldn't be very good for the Federation in the long run.

Also, I wouldn't say that Janeway went out of her way to alter history (most of the time)... and Kirk... well, he needed to go back in time to get the Humpback Whales in order to fend off the probe. Aside from that, all other time travel 'incursions' happened by accident mostly which Kirk himself managed to repair.

When Voyager first ended up in the 1990-ies was basically a fault of 29th century Federation and Captain Braxton's actions (who unwittingly and without sufficient evidence and effectively jumping to conclusions) tried attacking Voyager which ended up defending itself... and Voyager also managed to stop Starling from making his flight to the future (which would have destroyed entire Solar system). The only reason the 29th century Braxton was dispatched to bring Voyager back to the Delta Quadrant, was likely because Voyager itself didn't have the ability to get back (albeit we do know the Federation knew of the Time Warp slingshot around the sun, so technically, they could have used that to get back to the 24th century but stay in Earth's solar system).

Kim was the one who caused a temporal inversion in the Takara sector (Voyager Timeless episode) technically speaking, not Janeway.
And again, he wasn't stopped. History did change and Voyager survived its Slipstream flight by exiting it early. I think Braxton was mainly sent on 'cleanup' duty because Voyager was found to be crucial down the line and therefore allowed to survive, so he only needed to correct a temporal problem for that specific sector (which involved leaving Voyager to survive).

In regards to the Year of Hell, the Krenim (and Annorax specifically) were the ones responsible for changing the timeline in that part of space. The Krenim were also hostile towards Voyager and kept attacking the ship which prompted Janeway to directly confront them and go THROUGH their space (when they had temporal shields to protect themselves) because after the damage the ship and crew sustained, I think she had enough.
A reset button WAS effectively pressed here, but realistically, given how many civilizations Annorax erased from history, I don't think Janeway had much of a choice and I think she made the right call when ordering the fleet to take their temporal shields down - Janeway was (again) simply restoring history to its proper version (so there would be no reason to send a team to prevent that).

The only major incursion Janeway could be 'accused of' was the one in the final episode when her future version (Admiral Janeway) decided to go back in time and bring the crew home faster to avoid a few extra deaths.
As for why the 29th century didn't intervene then... likely because it was something that was 'meant to happen' or it was 'close enough' to not warrant any 'damage control' because the outcome was beneficial (after all, the entire Borg TW network was obliterated and the Queen herself was destroyed at her main unicomplex in the Delta Quadrant which ultimately favored 29th century Federation and whole of Milky Way).
 
My thought is that the Temporal Wars occurred everywhere, all at once, with the anchor point - the trigger in a sense - in the 30th century.

Basically, I think we need to take a step back and observe Federation history at a "gods eye view" level.

Almost all of Star Trek we've seen up to this point, was in the first 250 years of the Federation (and pre-Federation time), spanning approximately 2155 to 2399. This is nothing. It's only slightly older than the United States in the Present day. Across human history, here today, gone tomorrow powers reigned for a few hundred years, and then were gone. The Roman Republic lasted about twice that time span. So in a sense, all of Star Trek we've seen, from the Coalition of Planets, to the Romulan War, to the Klingon conflicts, to the Dominion War were all the major events of still, even then, the Birth of the Federation. What the Federation was in 2375, for example, is but a seed, a foreshadowing of what it would become, no more than how a Roman Republic that ruled just the Italian Penninsula and modern day Spain was a foreshadowing of the Empire that would emerge centuries later.

I think Daniels in Enterprise by vaguely describing just how different the far future was handled it gracefully. His Earth, his Federation are decedents of the Federation of Archer, Kirk and Picard, but are also in its own way distinct, flavored by a 1000 years of history and expansion and change.

I think the Dominion War, in a historical context, could be seen as an analog for the Punic Wars. The Federation had major conflicts, but most were quite short and comparatively limited in scope. But the Dominion War was by far the largest conflict in modern galactic history, involving tens of thousands of ships, billions of lives, and every known power in two quadrants. But it was also the first time that the Federation, after expanding for over 200 years and it its then zenith,, came in conflict with an adversary, ancient in nature, from far away that in many ways was superior to it. This is directly analogous to the Roman-Carthengian conflict. Carthengian power predated Rome and controlled the Western Mediterranean. But Roman expansion inevitably brought it into direct conflict with Carthage. Both could not co-exist in the region in a sustainable status quo. Both were diametrically opposed expansionist powers. The Punic Wars were inevitable.

In the same way, so was the Dominion War. As the Federation spread into the Alpha and Beta quadrants, time and expansion made it mightier than the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Gorn and Tholians, all one after another. If it were to expand into new quadrants and unexplored sectors of space - far away lands similar to North Africa of Roman Republic period - it was going to come into conflict with great powers.

And something was notable in that. Recall Sloan's prediction for Bashir - after the Dominion War, the Klingons would take a generation to rebuild, Cardassia would be occupied, and the great powers in conflict would then be the Federation and Romulans. But the Supernova of 2387 essentially destroyed the Romulan Empire. This left the Federation alone, recently victorious in it's war against the greatest empire of another quadrant, as a great power in all of local space.

The Dominion War, in a sense, "made" the Federation what it would become in every bit the Punic Wars did for Rome. The Punic Wars paved the way to Rome expanding into all the Mediterranean Basin, which it did with little resistence. In my view, the Dominion War, combined with "luck" in the form of the Supernova of 2387, did exactly the thing for the Federation. The Federation really had no rivals and limitations to expansion anymore. In the 25th or 26th century century it would add the Klingons. It would grow and grow in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. It would have to go all the way to the far distant reaches of the Beta Quadrant and into the Delta Quadrant to come up against its first known true rival - the Borg. And in the other direction, it would need to go comparatively farther, deep into the Gamma Quadrant, to find Dominion space (supposedly vast). The Dominon in the early 2370s expected the Federation (which they knew about ahead of time) to reach them in about 200 years wormhole aside, or 2570. That should give you a sense of what they figured the rate of expansion of the the Federation would be. But the Federation won the war against the Dominion, and one could suppose that, 200 years later, the Dominion would face a Federation on a completely different level of power.

My thought? The Dominion of the 26th century was basically the Federation's analog of what Persia was to the Roman Empire - the wall to further expansion, one that would eventually be overcome. A great power that could go toe to toe and fight exhausting conflicts at regular intervals, but one that was doomed to loose against the greater power. Perhaps that's what the "Founders Fourth Homeworld" meant. Perhaps the Federation just kept going to the point it drove the Dominion into the fringes of the galaxy, if it continued to exist at all.

So there were are, in the 30th century, with 350 "planets'. But remember, the Federation uses "planets" in different ways. Sometimes litterally, but usually it means polities. All of the Klingon Empire, for example, could be one "planet", akin to a Federation version of Texas. Just one big political subcomponent. With 350 planets, the Federation could control almost all of the spacefairing galaxy, with that vast distance travable by next generation warp drive or quantum slipstream (which Book's ship has) In fact, judging by the dilithium shortage, I bet that's exactly what happend. The Federation expanded everywhere.

So what was the Temporal War? The greatest conflict the Federation ever fought. The one that was always coming for it. It expanded so far, and saw down all rivals. It, in many ways, became the galaxy. And the only way to stop an adversary like that is via an asymetric attack. And that's what I think happened - the Federation's rivals of the 30th century era, mostly composed of species we don't know yet and not encountered by the late 24th century, decided to attack the Federation's existence throughout history and recruit allies across the timeline who wanted to stop the Federation from expansion (expansion that, by the 30th century, had already occurred). In a galaxy without the Temporal War, there is no reason the Federation couldn't have expanded forever, and become everything, everywhere, within our Galaxy and maybe one day beyond.

I think the Temporal War was fought almost on abstract terms. It didn't really involve ships and torpedoes', but agents and technologies to both "lock in" events and "cancel out" events... time manipulation technology that would be difficult to capture on screen. Let me put it like this, if the Dominion War was fought with the 24th century equivalent of chariots with bows and arrows, then the Temporal War was fought with thermonuclear weapons. It was a "higher form of war".

And it's really not surprising that the conflict, though victorious, basically knocked the Federation down flat, and allowed a slide into decline that predated the Burn (as the President of Ni'Var stated). It took everything the Federation had to just continue existing. The Federation by the 30th century was no longer an young entity, but an ancient one. And the Temporal War was its equivalent of a World War. The most expansive, expensive and dangerous conflict it ever fought, on a plane that even people of Picards era couldn't grasp.


This also has a history analog. After the division of the Roman Empire, the Eastern Empire (Byzantines) continued the campaigns against the Persians. And in time the Byzantines won, but the effort depleted the treasury, exhausted its resources and depopulated vast swaps of territory. It left the Byzantines and conquered Persia vulnerable to a new adversary from a land that had been given little though - the depths and vastness of the Arabian Peninsula, where Mohammed's Caliphate arose. First they swept through conquered Persia, in suzentry to Constantinople. And then they seized all of the Byzantine's holdings in North Africa, the Levant and most of Asia Minor. The Byzantines (and probably Persia) at it's height, could have easily withstood the caliphate. But given that they had ruined each other, at that time, they could not. And it was all the Byzantines could do to not fall themselves.

I think that's basically what the Temporal War was. The win condition was the Federation continued much as it was, but exhausted from it. Somewhat declined. And then pushed over a cliff and by the 32nd century, the galaxy is a lawless free-for-all of marauding armies and petty kingdoms again, much as it within just the small slice of the Alpha Quadrant in Archer's time before the Coalition of Planets was born. I think for the long time fan, that's what the special emphasis on planetary defenses (shown 3 distinct times) in Discovery is supposed to be: a space-based equivalent of walled cities. When Rome was in its infancy, walled cities were common. When the Empire grew and the frontiers pushed far away, cities out grew their walls and the walls were torn down. When the empire decline and fell, new walls went back up, because the legion couldn't defend the cities at the front. Those walls persisted in Europe for a millennium until cannon made them obsolete. In the 32nd century, without Starfleet, the "walls" of the 22nd century went back up, more or less. That is another legacy of the Temporal War.

This is why I hope that, when Discovery ends, we take a massive leap forward, to like the 53rd century. And we see what has become on the other end of the Federation Dark Age - a Federation that builds Dyson spheres, where citizens live for 500+ years, has colonized all the dwarf galaxies around the Milky Way and is starting to explore Andromeda and Triangulum. Where its very citizens are a synthesis of biology and programmable matter and information. I would love to see the Federation evolve into essentially an abstract entity operating on a different plane, and the Temporal War, in that context, every bit the trigger for transformation to the next stage of its evolution, every bit the Dominion War was to the Federation that, as Q so keenly observed, was so quaintly preoccupied with the Romans and Klingons and charting nebulas for a few hundred years, as if in the big scheme of things, that matter. The Federation not yet Gods or Q, but as countless superpowerful races encountered in the 23th and 24th century looked out to the future for, would be by that time a power that could be talked to in non-child like terms.
 
My thought is that the Temporal Wars occurred everywhere, all at once, with the anchor point - the trigger in a sense - in the 30th century.

Basically, I think we need to take a step back and observe Federation history at a "gods eye view" level.

Almost all of Star Trek we've seen up to this point, was in the first 250 years of the Federation (and pre-Federation time), spanning approximately 2155 to 2399. This is nothing. It's only slightly older than the United States in the Present day. Across human history, here today, gone tomorrow powers reigned for a few hundred years, and then were gone. The Roman Republic lasted about twice that time span. So in a sense, all of Star Trek we've seen, from the Coalition of Planets, to the Romulan War, to the Klingon conflicts, to the Dominion War were all the major events of still, even then, the Birth of the Federation. What the Federation was in 2375, for example, is but a seed, a foreshadowing of what it would become, no more than how a Roman Republic that ruled just the Italian Penninsula and modern day Spain was a foreshadowing of the Empire that would emerge centuries later.

I think Daniels in Enterprise by vaguely describing just how different the far future was handled it gracefully. His Earth, his Federation are decedents of the Federation of Archer, Kirk and Picard, but are also in its own way distinct, flavored by a 1000 years of history and expansion and change.

I think the Dominion War, in a historical context, could be seen as an analog for the Punic Wars. The Federation had major conflicts, but most were quite short and comparatively limited in scope. But the Dominion War was by far the largest conflict in modern galactic history, involving tens of thousands of ships, billions of lives, and every known power in two quadrants. But it was also the first time that the Federation, after expanding for over 200 years and it its then zenith,, came in conflict with an adversary, ancient in nature, from far away that in many ways was superior to it. This is directly analogous to the Roman-Carthengian conflict. Carthengian power predated Rome and controlled the Western Mediterranean. But Roman expansion inevitably brought it into direct conflict with Carthage. Both could not co-exist in the region in a sustainable status quo. Both were diametrically opposed expansionist powers. The Punic Wars were inevitable.

In the same way, so was the Dominion War. As the Federation spread into the Alpha and Beta quadrants, time and expansion made it mightier than the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Gorn and Tholians, all one after another. If it were to expand into new quadrants and unexplored sectors of space - far away lands similar to North Africa of Roman Republic period - it was going to come into conflict with great powers.

And something was notable in that. Recall Sloan's prediction for Bashir - after the Dominion War, the Klingons would take a generation to rebuild, Cardassia would be occupied, and the great powers in conflict would then be the Federation and Romulans. But the Supernova of 2387 essentially destroyed the Romulan Empire. This left the Federation alone, recently victorious in it's war against the greatest empire of another quadrant, as a great power in all of local space.

The Dominion War, in a sense, "made" the Federation what it would become in every bit the Punic Wars did for Rome. The Punic Wars paved the way to Rome expanding into all the Mediterranean Basin, which it did with little resistence. In my view, the Dominion War, combined with "luck" in the form of the Supernova of 2387, did exactly the thing for the Federation. The Federation really had no rivals and limitations to expansion anymore. In the 25th or 26th century century it would add the Klingons. It would grow and grow in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. It would have to go all the way to the far distant reaches of the Beta Quadrant and into the Delta Quadrant to come up against its first known true rival - the Borg. And in the other direction, it would need to go comparatively farther, deep into the Gamma Quadrant, to find Dominion space (supposedly vast). The Dominon in the early 2370s expected the Federation (which they knew about ahead of time) to reach them in about 200 years wormhole aside, or 2570. That should give you a sense of what they figured the rate of expansion of the the Federation would be. But the Federation won the war against the Dominion, and one could suppose that, 200 years later, the Dominion would face a Federation on a completely different level of power.

My thought? The Dominion of the 26th century was basically the Federation's analog of what Persia was to the Roman Empire - the wall to further expansion, one that would eventually be overcome. A great power that could go toe to toe and fight exhausting conflicts at regular intervals, but one that was doomed to loose against the greater power. Perhaps that's what the "Founders Fourth Homeworld" meant. Perhaps the Federation just kept going to the point it drove the Dominion into the fringes of the galaxy, if it continued to exist at all.

So there were are, in the 30th century, with 350 "planets'. But remember, the Federation uses "planets" in different ways. Sometimes litterally, but usually it means polities. All of the Klingon Empire, for example, could be one "planet", akin to a Federation version of Texas. Just one big political subcomponent. With 350 planets, the Federation could control almost all of the spacefairing galaxy, with that vast distance travable by next generation warp drive or quantum slipstream (which Book's ship has) In fact, judging by the dilithium shortage, I bet that's exactly what happend. The Federation expanded everywhere.

So what was the Temporal War? The greatest conflict the Federation ever fought. The one that was always coming for it. It expanded so far, and saw down all rivals. It, in many ways, became the galaxy. And the only way to stop an adversary like that is via an asymetric attack. And that's what I think happened - the Federation's rivals of the 30th century era, mostly composed of species we don't know yet and not encountered by the late 24th century, decided to attack the Federation's existence throughout history and recruit allies across the timeline who wanted to stop the Federation from expansion (expansion that, by the 30th century, had already occurred). In a galaxy without the Temporal War, there is no reason the Federation couldn't have expanded forever, and become everything, everywhere, within our Galaxy and maybe one day beyond.

I think the Temporal War was fought almost on abstract terms. It didn't really involve ships and torpedoes', but agents and technologies to both "lock in" events and "cancel out" events... time manipulation technology that would be difficult to capture on screen. Let me put it like this, if the Dominion War was fought with the 24th century equivalent of chariots with bows and arrows, then the Temporal War was fought with thermonuclear weapons. It was a "higher form of war".

And it's really not surprising that the conflict, though victorious, basically knocked the Federation down flat, and allowed a slide into decline that predated the Burn (as the President of Ni'Var stated). It took everything the Federation had to just continue existing. The Federation by the 30th century was no longer an young entity, but an ancient one. And the Temporal War was its equivalent of a World War. The most expansive, expensive and dangerous conflict it ever fought, on a plane that even people of Picards era couldn't grasp.


This also has a history analog. After the division of the Roman Empire, the Eastern Empire (Byzantines) continued the campaigns against the Persians. And in time the Byzantines won, but the effort depleted the treasury, exhausted its resources and depopulated vast swaps of territory. It left the Byzantines and conquered Persia vulnerable to a new adversary from a land that had been given little though - the depths and vastness of the Arabian Peninsula, where Mohammed's Caliphate arose. First they swept through conquered Persia, in suzentry to Constantinople. And then they seized all of the Byzantine's holdings in North Africa, the Levant and most of Asia Minor. The Byzantines (and probably Persia) at it's height, could have easily withstood the caliphate. But given that they had ruined each other, at that time, they could not. And it was all the Byzantines could do to not fall themselves.

I think that's basically what the Temporal War was. The win condition was the Federation continued much as it was, but exhausted from it. Somewhat declined. And then pushed over a cliff and by the 32nd century, the galaxy is a lawless free-for-all of marauding armies and petty kingdoms again, much as it within just the small slice of the Alpha Quadrant in Archer's time before the Coalition of Planets was born. I think for the long time fan, that's what the special emphasis on planetary defenses (shown 3 distinct times) in Discovery is supposed to be: a space-based equivalent of walled cities. When Rome was in its infancy, walled cities were common. When the Empire grew and the frontiers pushed far away, cities out grew their walls and the walls were torn down. When the empire decline and fell, new walls went back up, because the legion couldn't defend the cities at the front. Those walls persisted in Europe for a millennium until cannon made them obsolete. In the 32nd century, without Starfleet, the "walls" of the 22nd century went back up, more or less. That is another legacy of the Temporal War.

This is why I hope that, when Discovery ends, we take a massive leap forward, to like the 53rd century. And we see what has become on the other end of the Federation Dark Age - a Federation that builds Dyson spheres, where citizens live for 500+ years, has colonized all the dwarf galaxies around the Milky Way and is starting to explore Andromeda and Triangulum. Where its very citizens are a synthesis of biology and programmable matter and information. I would love to see the Federation evolve into essentially an abstract entity operating on a different plane, and the Temporal War, in that context, every bit the trigger for transformation to the next stage of its evolution, every bit the Dominion War was to the Federation that, as Q so keenly observed, was so quaintly preoccupied with the Romans and Klingons and charting nebulas for a few hundred years, as if in the big scheme of things, that matter. The Federation not yet Gods or Q, but as countless superpowerful races encountered in the 23th and 24th century looked out to the future for, would be by that time a power that could be talked to in non-child like terms.

Thank you for that. That's one of the very best and most insightful posts i ever read about the Temporal (Cold) War(s) :techman:
 
There's some interesting Temporal War related stuff in Star Trek Online.

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My thought is that the Temporal Wars occurred everywhere, all at once, with the anchor point - the trigger in a sense - in the 30th century.

Basically, I think we need to take a step back and observe Federation history at a "gods eye view" level.

Almost all of Star Trek we've seen up to this point, was in the first 250 years of the Federation (and pre-Federation time), spanning approximately 2155 to 2399. This is nothing. It's only slightly older than the United States in the Present day. Across human history, here today, gone tomorrow powers reigned for a few hundred years, and then were gone. The Roman Republic lasted about twice that time span. So in a sense, all of Star Trek we've seen, from the Coalition of Planets, to the Romulan War, to the Klingon conflicts, to the Dominion War were all the major events of still, even then, the Birth of the Federation. What the Federation was in 2375, for example, is but a seed, a foreshadowing of what it would become, no more than how a Roman Republic that ruled just the Italian Penninsula and modern day Spain was a foreshadowing of the Empire that would emerge centuries later.

I think Daniels in Enterprise by vaguely describing just how different the far future was handled it gracefully. His Earth, his Federation are decedents of the Federation of Archer, Kirk and Picard, but are also in its own way distinct, flavored by a 1000 years of history and expansion and change.

I think the Dominion War, in a historical context, could be seen as an analog for the Punic Wars. The Federation had major conflicts, but most were quite short and comparatively limited in scope. But the Dominion War was by far the largest conflict in modern galactic history, involving tens of thousands of ships, billions of lives, and every known power in two quadrants. But it was also the first time that the Federation, after expanding for over 200 years and it its then zenith,, came in conflict with an adversary, ancient in nature, from far away that in many ways was superior to it. This is directly analogous to the Roman-Carthengian conflict. Carthengian power predated Rome and controlled the Western Mediterranean. But Roman expansion inevitably brought it into direct conflict with Carthage. Both could not co-exist in the region in a sustainable status quo. Both were diametrically opposed expansionist powers. The Punic Wars were inevitable.

In the same way, so was the Dominion War. As the Federation spread into the Alpha and Beta quadrants, time and expansion made it mightier than the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Gorn and Tholians, all one after another. If it were to expand into new quadrants and unexplored sectors of space - far away lands similar to North Africa of Roman Republic period - it was going to come into conflict with great powers.

And something was notable in that. Recall Sloan's prediction for Bashir - after the Dominion War, the Klingons would take a generation to rebuild, Cardassia would be occupied, and the great powers in conflict would then be the Federation and Romulans. But the Supernova of 2387 essentially destroyed the Romulan Empire. This left the Federation alone, recently victorious in it's war against the greatest empire of another quadrant, as a great power in all of local space.

The Dominion War, in a sense, "made" the Federation what it would become in every bit the Punic Wars did for Rome. The Punic Wars paved the way to Rome expanding into all the Mediterranean Basin, which it did with little resistence. In my view, the Dominion War, combined with "luck" in the form of the Supernova of 2387, did exactly the thing for the Federation. The Federation really had no rivals and limitations to expansion anymore. In the 25th or 26th century century it would add the Klingons. It would grow and grow in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. It would have to go all the way to the far distant reaches of the Beta Quadrant and into the Delta Quadrant to come up against its first known true rival - the Borg. And in the other direction, it would need to go comparatively farther, deep into the Gamma Quadrant, to find Dominion space (supposedly vast). The Dominon in the early 2370s expected the Federation (which they knew about ahead of time) to reach them in about 200 years wormhole aside, or 2570. That should give you a sense of what they figured the rate of expansion of the the Federation would be. But the Federation won the war against the Dominion, and one could suppose that, 200 years later, the Dominion would face a Federation on a completely different level of power.

My thought? The Dominion of the 26th century was basically the Federation's analog of what Persia was to the Roman Empire - the wall to further expansion, one that would eventually be overcome. A great power that could go toe to toe and fight exhausting conflicts at regular intervals, but one that was doomed to loose against the greater power. Perhaps that's what the "Founders Fourth Homeworld" meant. Perhaps the Federation just kept going to the point it drove the Dominion into the fringes of the galaxy, if it continued to exist at all.

So there were are, in the 30th century, with 350 "planets'. But remember, the Federation uses "planets" in different ways. Sometimes litterally, but usually it means polities. All of the Klingon Empire, for example, could be one "planet", akin to a Federation version of Texas. Just one big political subcomponent. With 350 planets, the Federation could control almost all of the spacefairing galaxy, with that vast distance travable by next generation warp drive or quantum slipstream (which Book's ship has) In fact, judging by the dilithium shortage, I bet that's exactly what happend. The Federation expanded everywhere.

So what was the Temporal War? The greatest conflict the Federation ever fought. The one that was always coming for it. It expanded so far, and saw down all rivals. It, in many ways, became the galaxy. And the only way to stop an adversary like that is via an asymetric attack. And that's what I think happened - the Federation's rivals of the 30th century era, mostly composed of species we don't know yet and not encountered by the late 24th century, decided to attack the Federation's existence throughout history and recruit allies across the timeline who wanted to stop the Federation from expansion (expansion that, by the 30th century, had already occurred). In a galaxy without the Temporal War, there is no reason the Federation couldn't have expanded forever, and become everything, everywhere, within our Galaxy and maybe one day beyond.

I think the Temporal War was fought almost on abstract terms. It didn't really involve ships and torpedoes', but agents and technologies to both "lock in" events and "cancel out" events... time manipulation technology that would be difficult to capture on screen. Let me put it like this, if the Dominion War was fought with the 24th century equivalent of chariots with bows and arrows, then the Temporal War was fought with thermonuclear weapons. It was a "higher form of war".

And it's really not surprising that the conflict, though victorious, basically knocked the Federation down flat, and allowed a slide into decline that predated the Burn (as the President of Ni'Var stated). It took everything the Federation had to just continue existing. The Federation by the 30th century was no longer an young entity, but an ancient one. And the Temporal War was its equivalent of a World War. The most expansive, expensive and dangerous conflict it ever fought, on a plane that even people of Picards era couldn't grasp.


This also has a history analog. After the division of the Roman Empire, the Eastern Empire (Byzantines) continued the campaigns against the Persians. And in time the Byzantines won, but the effort depleted the treasury, exhausted its resources and depopulated vast swaps of territory. It left the Byzantines and conquered Persia vulnerable to a new adversary from a land that had been given little though - the depths and vastness of the Arabian Peninsula, where Mohammed's Caliphate arose. First they swept through conquered Persia, in suzentry to Constantinople. And then they seized all of the Byzantine's holdings in North Africa, the Levant and most of Asia Minor. The Byzantines (and probably Persia) at it's height, could have easily withstood the caliphate. But given that they had ruined each other, at that time, they could not. And it was all the Byzantines could do to not fall themselves.

I think that's basically what the Temporal War was. The win condition was the Federation continued much as it was, but exhausted from it. Somewhat declined. And then pushed over a cliff and by the 32nd century, the galaxy is a lawless free-for-all of marauding armies and petty kingdoms again, much as it within just the small slice of the Alpha Quadrant in Archer's time before the Coalition of Planets was born. I think for the long time fan, that's what the special emphasis on planetary defenses (shown 3 distinct times) in Discovery is supposed to be: a space-based equivalent of walled cities. When Rome was in its infancy, walled cities were common. When the Empire grew and the frontiers pushed far away, cities out grew their walls and the walls were torn down. When the empire decline and fell, new walls went back up, because the legion couldn't defend the cities at the front. Those walls persisted in Europe for a millennium until cannon made them obsolete. In the 32nd century, without Starfleet, the "walls" of the 22nd century went back up, more or less. That is another legacy of the Temporal War.

This is why I hope that, when Discovery ends, we take a massive leap forward, to like the 53rd century. And we see what has become on the other end of the Federation Dark Age - a Federation that builds Dyson spheres, where citizens live for 500+ years, has colonized all the dwarf galaxies around the Milky Way and is starting to explore Andromeda and Triangulum. Where its very citizens are a synthesis of biology and programmable matter and information. I would love to see the Federation evolve into essentially an abstract entity operating on a different plane, and the Temporal War, in that context, every bit the trigger for transformation to the next stage of its evolution, every bit the Dominion War was to the Federation that, as Q so keenly observed, was so quaintly preoccupied with the Romans and Klingons and charting nebulas for a few hundred years, as if in the big scheme of things, that matter. The Federation not yet Gods or Q, but as countless superpowerful races encountered in the 23th and 24th century looked out to the future for, would be by that time a power that could be talked to in non-child like terms.

Congratulations - I believe you've put more thought into The Temporal Wars than Berman, Braga or the present Kurtzman-led brigade combined. That was an awesome read.
 
I kind of figured that the Temporal Wars aren't exactly what they sound like, and that its actually a Fringe-style Universe War, with different alternate realities fighting by disrupting each other's past(s). They could tie it into whatever universe Lazarus initially came from; He was the "Walter Bishop" that opened the door between the Universes, kicking the whole thing off; the whole thing comes to a head by the 31st century. Maybe this is one of Section 31's secrets.
 
How much did Archer know and record about the Temporal Wars for his successors? If all he knew about the Temporal Wars was that they occurred in the 31st century and he left notes to try to prevent it, maybe the very act of trying to prevent the wars ended up causing them. An ontological paradox.
 
I think there may have been some meddeling that "blinked" into existance during the last scene of First Contact - butterflies that the TCW helped correct before Picard even returned home. IMO, the NX was not called "Enterprise" before First Contact, and according to ENT, in the original timeline Archer's ship was lost early on in its mission. Whatever original TOS Federation history was, it was drastically altered post FC, and the Temporal Cold War was originally a fight to destroy the Federation in the 22nd century, or at least, to keep the 22nd century from being repaired, post FC. I've always liked that storyline, but with what DSC is doing now, an alt-Universe war may make more sense than a straight time travel war.
 
How much did Archer know and record about the Temporal Wars for his successors? If all he knew about the Temporal Wars was that they occurred in the 31st century and he left notes to try to prevent it, maybe the very act of trying to prevent the wars ended up causing them. An ontological paradox.
Well according to Brannon Braga he eventually somehow becomes Future Guy sooooo....
 
Well according to Brannon Braga he eventually somehow becomes Future Guy sooooo....
That would have to be an alternate Archer though, unless he got mindwiped or something. If Archer were Future Guy, wouldn't he already know his schemes would be stopped because he remembers himself as Archer stopping them?
 
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