Tarsus IV

[J.T.B.]

In my mind the fifth year Kirk refers to in "Bread and Circuses" was a year of command school after the standard four year training at the Academy. You could take it directly after you graduate or come back and take it later if you wish to command a ship someday.

That doesn't seem to account for Merik, though. If he had graduated he could still have a Starfleet career without the command school. The implication was that he hadn't completed SA and was out. Not to mention that it would be odd to send officers with no fleet experience directly to command shcool.

Which explains why Saavik and Kirk(s) were at the Academy while holding the rank of Lieutenant.

I'm not sure what the Kirk reference is, probably something I've forgotten. I'm not sure Lt Saavik was associated with the academy in TWOK. She was on a training cruise that also involved cadets, but I don't think there's anything in the movie to suggest she was assigned to SA.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That doesn't seem to account for Merik, though. If he had graduated he could still have a Starfleet career without the command school. The implication was that he hadn't completed SA and was out. Not to mention that it would be odd to send officers with no fleet experience directly to command shcool.



I'm not sure what the Kirk reference is, probably something I've forgotten. I'm not sure Lt Saavik was associated with the academy in TWOK. She was on a training cruise that also involved cadets, but I don't think there's anything in the movie to suggest she was assigned to SA.

For Kirk its the line about in his class, you either think or sink . (WNMHGB)
Saavik is at the Academy taking the Kobayashi Maru with a mix of cadets and instructors as her crew. (TWOK)
Kelvin Kirk is also at the Academy taking the Kobayashi Maru, but holds the rank of Lieutenant. (ST'09)
Hence my headcanon of the fifth year being a command course for certain officers in that track.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

That doesn't seem to account for Merik, though. If he had graduated he could still have a Starfleet career without the command school. The implication was that he hadn't completed SA and was out. Not to mention that it would be odd to send officers with no fleet experience directly to command shcool.

I think Kirk simply misspoke when he said Merrick was in the fifth year. He meant to say first year, which is a more likely time to be culled if you are not Starfleet material.

They don't suddenly find out in your fifth year that you're a weak man, unprincipled, and you're never going to make it with that "deep blue hero stuff."

People misspeak in real life all the time. And sometimes, when it's really not the point, it isn't worth correcting yourself. "I meant first, I said fifth, nobody cares, and we're moving on!"

 

[Nerys Myk]

They don't suddenly find out in your fifth year that you're a weak man, unprincipled, and you're never going to make it with that "deep blue hero stuff."

Usually they wait until you're give a captaincy,

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That doesn't seem to account for Merik, though. If he had graduated he could still have a Starfleet career without the command school. The implication was that he hadn't completed SA and was out. Not to mention that it would be odd to send officers with no fleet experience directly to command shcool.

Good point. Well, as the Academy is definitely a four year institution by the time of TNG, perhaps they shaved a year off the curriculum between the 23rd and 24th Century for some reason? I don't know how much sense that makes, but the Academy is pretty undeniably only four years in TNG's time.

I'm not sure what the Kirk reference is, probably something I've forgotten.

In the Okuda Chronology, they theorize that Kirk somehow became a lieutenant before he graduated the Academy. It was their way of reconciling the reference in "Court Martial" to Ensign Kirk serving on the Republic with the lines in "Obsession" about Kirk serving on the Farragut as a lieutenant and how Captain Garrovick "was my commanding officer from the day I left the Academy."

I personally think it makes much more sense to assume that Captain Garrovick commanded the Republic ("Court Martial" never gives a name for the ship's Captain) and took Ensign Kirk with him to the Farragut when he took command of that ship. That's what David Goodman went with in his Autobiography of Captain Kirk book.

They don't suddenly find out in your fifth year that you're a weak man, unprincipled, and you're never going to make it with that "deep blue hero stuff."

Usually they wait until you're give a captaincy,

Nah, that's the sort of thing you find out when someone's an Admiral.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Nah, that's the sort of thing you find out when someone's an Admiral.

Ron has ambitions

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think Kirk simply misspoke when he said Merrick was in the fifth year.

Perhaps Merrick had to repeat a year?

 

[J.T.B.]

For Kirk its the line about in his class, you either think or sink . (WNMHGB)

He was an instructor then, so it doesn't tell us much regarding academy undergrad/grad students at the time.

Saavik is at the Academy taking the Kobayashi Maru with a mix of cadets and instructors as her crew. (TWOK)

The simulator may be at the academy, that's apparently where Kirk took it. But he took it as a cadet and Saavik took it as a JG. I figure she's a grad student in some program, maybe at SA, maybe not.

Good point. Well, as the Academy is definitely a four year institution by the time of TNG, perhaps they shaved a year off the curriculum between the 23rd and 24th Century for some reason? I don't know how much sense that makes, but the Academy is pretty undeniably only four years in TNG's time.

Yeah there could be any number of reasons why it's changed back and forth. It would be interesting to me if the OS fifth year was more of a practicum on operational vessels. But it seems from TWOK that that kind of thing is limited to special cadet cruises; we don't find midshipmen on all vessels like back in the days of sail.

In the Okuda Chronology, they theorize that Kirk somehow became a lieutenant before he graduated the Academy. It was their way of reconciling the reference in "Court Martial" to Ensign Kirk serving on the Republic with the lines in "Obsession" about Kirk serving on the Farragut as a lieutenant and how Captain Garrovick "was my commanding officer from the day I left the Academy."

I personally think it makes much more sense to assume that Captain Garrovick commanded the Republic ("Court Martial" never gives a name for the ship's Captain) and took Ensign Kirk with him to the Farragut when he took command of that ship. That's what David Goodman went with in his Autobiography of Captain Kirk book.

Oh yes, I believe we've talked about this before. It seems pretty simple: Garrovick takes command of Farragut, Ens Kirk transfers to Farragut, Kirk moves up to LT JG, or perhaps even acting LT after the cloud thing creates a lot of vacancies on the ship.

I think Kirk simply misspoke when he said Merrick was in the fifth year. He meant to say first year, which is a more likely time to be culled if you are not Starfleet material.

I guess... I would be so basic a thing, though, it would be a bit like saying the batter was out on his fourth strike. You might say that by mistake, but you'd immediately correct yourself. And I doubt the line as written was intended to be a mistake.

People misspeak in real life all the time. And sometimes, when it's really not the point, it isn't worth correcting yourself. "I meant first, I said fifth, nobody cares, and we're moving on!"

Maybe every time a character says something that is contradicted somewhere else, it's because they made a mistake. That would shorten a lot of discussions hereabouts!

Perhaps Merrick had to repeat a year?

I really doubt that. If it came to that, you'd be out.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He was an instructor then, so it doesn't tell us much regarding academy undergrad/grad students at the time.

The simulator may be at the academy, that's apparently where Kirk took it. But he took it as a cadet and Saavik took it as a JG. I figure she's a grad student in some program, maybe at SA, maybe not.

My assumption is the post grad curriculum for the command track includes the Kobayashi Maru, stints as an instructor at SA and other leadership oriented activities.
Kelvin Kirk held a lieutenant's rank in his last year at SA according to a graphic seen in ST09

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Oh yes, I believe we've talked about this before. It seems pretty simple: Garrovick takes command of Farragut, Ens Kirk transfers to Farragut, Kirk moves up to LT JG, or perhaps even acting LT after the cloud thing creates a lot of vacancies on the ship.

Oh yes, we've probably talked about it before. It doesn't take much for me to get into a timeline discussion.

Yeah, the "Kirk was promoted to lieutenant before graduating the Academy" thing is such a strange assumption when the other interpretation is so obvious, I'd love to hear Mike and Denise Okuda explain their logic there.

Double checking my timeline, I have Kirk graduating the Academy as an ensign in 2254, getting promoted to Lt. J.G. about a year later in 2255 (after he notices the open circuit on the Republic), transferring over the Farragut with Captain Garrovick soon after that, getting promoted to full Lt. in 2257, transferring to Starfleet Academy to teach & take command school after the encounter with the cloud creature later that year, graduating from Command School in 2258 & taking an Earthside assignment to stay close to Carol Marcus, getting promoted to Lt. Cmdr. in 2259, and then shipping out on a ship again in 2260 after they break up. After that, he's bouncing around from ship to ship until he finally takes command of the Saladin in 2263 (at the rank of Commander) and then finally the Enterprise in 2265. I think that's a fairly realistic career progression for Kirk.

My assumption is the post grad curriculum for the command track includes the Kobayashi Maru, stints as an instructor at SA and other leadership oriented activities.

That sounds perfectly logical. It would also make sense for officers on the command track to do stints in most every department aboard a ship to gain a greater understanding of how the ship functions as a whole, so I'm imagining that young Kirk served time in Engineering, Sciences, Navigation, and perhaps other departments. After all, McCoy comments in "The Corbomite Maneuver" that Bailey likely reminds Kirk of himself "11 years ago," which seems too specific of a figure for Kirk not to have been a navigator 11 years before. Kirk also clearly knows his way around Auxiliary Control in "The Doomsday Machine," so I'd imagine he was an assistant engineer somewhere along the way, as well.

Kelvin Kirk held a lieutenant's rank in his last year at SA according to a graphic seen in ST09

I'd imagine they were just following the Okudas' lead there.

 

[J.T.B.]

My assumption is the post grad curriculum for the command track includes the Kobayashi Maru, stints as an instructor at SA and other leadership oriented activities.
Kelvin Kirk held a lieutenant's rank in his last year at SA according to a graphic seen in ST09

A lieutenant as a post-grad makes perfect sense. A lieutenant as an undergrad... no.

Double checking my timeline, I have Kirk graduating the Academy as an ensign in 2254, getting promoted to Lt. J.G. about a year later in 2255 (after he notices the open circuit on the Republic), transferring over the Farragut with Captain Garrovick soon after that, getting promoted to full Lt. in 2257, transferring to Starfleet Academy to teach & take command school after the encounter with the cloud creature later that year, graduating from Command School in 2258 & taking an Earthside assignment to stay close to Carol Marcus, getting promoted to Lt. Cmdr. in 2259, and then shipping out on a ship again in 2260 after they break up. After that, he's bouncing around from ship to ship until he finally takes command of the Saladin in 2263 (at the rank of Commander) and then finally the Enterprise in 2265. I think that's a fairly realistic career progression for Kirk

I like it a lot. I would especially like it if he did a couple solid years as F/O of a big ship before Saladin. That seems to be a billet available at the LCdr level.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A lieutenant as a post-grad makes perfect sense. A lieutenant as an undergrad... no.

Yep. That is why Kelvin Kirk and Saavik have to be post grads in my headcanon.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I like it a lot. I would especially like it if he did a couple solid years as F/O of a big ship before Saladin. That seems to be a billet available at the LCdr level.

I agree with you. Yes, in my mind Kirk absolutely was a first officer before he got his own command with the Saladin. And yes, AFAIK you can become a first officer as a Lt. Cmdr. I believe that was Number One's rank in "The Cage." I missed this in my previous timeline summary, but I have Kirk becoming first officer of the El Dorado in February of 2260 at the rank of Lieutenant Commander, shortly after his breakup with Carol Marcus. He was promoted to Commander in 2262, and took command of the Saladin in 2263. (I got the names of the El Dorado and the Saladin from William Rotsler's book Star Trek II Biographies. They were both also mentioned in Mike W. Barr's version of Kirk's first mission as Captain of the Enterprise, from the first DC Comics Annual. I like both of those Starship names.)

And it's worth noting that the recent Strange New Worlds episode "Lost in Translation" depicts Kirk

Spoiler: Minor episode spoiler

becoming first officer of the USS Farragut in 2259 while at the rank of Lieutenant.

 

[Phaser Two]

I also like this backstory for Scotty quite a bit, as it gives him a more varied background than most ST characters. In my mind Scotty was shipping out on civilian and merchant ships as soon as he was able, and then he was granted credit for that experience when he entered Starfleet. There's some TOS episode or another where Scotty mentions making a particular supply run himself a time or two, but I'm forgetting which one right now. In my headcanon that was from before he entered Starfleet.

Nice! I like that too. And your recall is good - that reference is a cool line of color-adding dialogue from the beginning of "Operation: Annihilate!" Scotty says he made the Deneva-to-asteroid-belt freight run a time or two as an engineering advisor.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Nice! I like that too. And your recall is good - that reference is a cool line of color-adding dialogue from the beginning of "Operation: Annihilate!" Scotty says he made the Deneva-to-asteroid-belt freight run a time or two as an engineering advisor.

Thank you! It was driving me nuts that I couldn't recall the episode, and I couldn't remember the dialogue precisely enough to search by it.

 

[Shawnster]

Perhaps Merrick had to repeat a year?

[QUOTE="J.T.B., post: 14573164, member:
I really doubt that. If it came to that, you'd be out.[/QUOTE]

Or there were complications that caused Merrick to go through the academy slower. Lots of factors could come into play to cause a 4 year program to be completed in 5. Not all of them need to be due to a failure on Merrick's part.

 

[Phaser Two]

Thank you! It was driving me nuts that I couldn't recall the episode, and I couldn't remember the dialogue precisely enough to search by it.

You're welcome! I mean, if I can't put my Star Trek dialogue fascination to good use here, then where, right? I've always liked that line and I love your interpretation of it and Scotty's backstory.

 

[J.T.B.]

Or there were complications that caused Merrick to go through the academy slower. Lots of factors could come into play to cause a 4 year program to be completed in 5. Not all of them need to be due to a failure on Merrick's part.

If someone mentions that a person was in the fifth year of a four-year program, one would expect them to add some additional information. But the line is presented like a fifth year is perfectly normal.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

They don't suddenly find out in your fifth year that you're a weak man, unprincipled, and you're never going to make it with that "deep blue hero stuff."

They might find out that you've changed in the intervening years, or that you were hiding your real beliefs until now.

After all, McCoy comments in "The Corbomite Maneuver" that Bailey likely reminds Kirk of himself "11 years ago," which seems too specific of a figure for Kirk not to have been a navigator 11 years before.

Here's the scene:

MCCOY: I'm especially worried about Bailey. Navigator's position's rough enough for a seasoned man.
KIRK: I think he'll cut it.
MCCOY: Oh? How so sure? Because you spotted something you liked in him, something familiar, like yourself say about, oh, eleven years ago?

It sounds more like McCoy is referencing Bailey's age relative to Kirk's - that is, that Bailey is about 11 years younger than Kirk is now. McCoy is saying that Kirk sees a younger Jim in Bailey - specifically, his ability to handle a stressful challenge such as this, but not necessarily limited to navigation.

 

[SpocksTricorder]

Wasn't Dorothy and Radar also from Iowa?Lotta peeps from that sparse state.