Talosian illusion powers and the fate of Pike

[Timo]

The idea that Spock's sensitivity would give the Talosians interstellar range is cast in doubt when Kirk is the one experiencing interstellar illusions...

The episode features something like three major mysteries, events whose justification doesn't seem to immediately stem from the dialogue or the plot. These would be

1) Death penalty on Talos IV visits? The only death penalty in (Starfleet? UFP?) law? What is so significant here that people must die, rather than be brainwashed back into law-abiding citizens like everybody else?

2) Mendez is an illusion? Problems with range dwindle in comparison with problems of motivation.

3) Talosians and Spock in cahoots? Which made the initiative, and what possible reason would the Talosians have to be nice to Pike? What changed about them being ruthlessly manipulative seekers of slaves?

It is the burden of these three unjustified plot twists that makes me prefer the idea that

1) Talos is perceived as a threat because short range telepathy would allow Talosians to hijack a starship and then take over the galaxy. Thus, the important thing is to prevent ships from reaching Talos - or, if they do reach it, to prevent them from ever reaching any other destination. Death penalty facilitates both, while the secrecy around it is an important part of the protective quarantine.

2) The Mendez illusion is a preplanned show of force by the Talosians, because they realize that with this second visit, Starfleet will be forced to take action. Demonstrating interstellar reach makes it clear that nothing can stop the Talosians, and also that they choose not to be a threat nevertheless, and further that they have altruist interests in mind by making it unnecessary for Starfleet to kill Spock.

There is also the side benefit that if an illusory Mendez gives illusory chase, Kirk's instinct to chase is satisfied and he doesn't kick ass until he gets two battleships to hunt down his stolen cruiser. The rest of SB11 in turn resigns to the impossibility of a chase.

3) This presupposes the Talosians are in on it all from the very start. And since they are shown in "The Cage" to be an inflexible bunch of klutzes who are dying of their very inflexibility, the initiative must have come from outside, that is, from Spock who would be the only one in the know and with the motivation. Talosians known how to send radio messages (or illusions thereof, anyway). Spock may well have sent them a message, outlining his plan to bring Pike to the planet in such a manner that it casts the Talosians in a good light and frees them from the Starfleet siege, ultimately saving their planet.

Given how smugly Spock acts in general, it's not difficult to pretend that he's constantly on top of things and everything is part of his master plan.

Also, we should probably assume that the real Mendez is just as ignorant about the truth about Talos IV as the fake Mendez is when opening the classified file for Kirk's benefit. (Indeed, that Mendez may have been the real one, assuming one even exists!) Thus, monitoring of the trial at a distance would be a real revelation to him, and would motivate him to pardon everybody as he sees the all-around good intentions. His superiors might not agree; their first instinct might be to destroy not only the Enterprise but SB11 as well, as both would now be guilty of the galaxy-endangering offense of listening to Talosian propaganda. But they would have known about the nature of the threat all along, and they would come to realize that the interstellar range demonstrated by the trial would render GO7 moot. Thus, while Mendez could come to the snap decision to pardon Spock and the rest mere minutes after the trial ended, his superiors would have adjusted their opinion earlier on and would be ready to tackle the issue in various ways, the first of them being to let Mendez' judgement stand. Which would be the culmination of Spock's clever plot of rehabilitating the Talosians and giving Pike a brighter future.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CoveTom]

Mendez also opens another can of worms. If they can broadcast a consistent illusion over light-years into the minds of multiple people, why the need to take Pike to Talos IV in the first place? No one would've been the wiser that Pike was living a fantasy life inside his head.

Well, Vina was not an illusion. Her appearance was an illusion, but we know that she was a real person. Perhaps the Talosians wanted to let Pike and Vina each actually live with another real person. Even though the appearance was manipulated, they would know that they were each real, and might be comforted by that more than living a life of total illusion.

 

[BillJ]

Mendez also opens another can of worms. If they can broadcast a consistent illusion over light-years into the minds of multiple people, why the need to take Pike to Talos IV in the first place? No one would've been the wiser that Pike was living a fantasy life inside his head.

Well, Vina was not an illusion. Her appearance was an illusion, but we know that she was a real person. Perhaps the Talosians wanted to let Pike and Vina each actually live with another real person. Even though the appearance was manipulated, they would know that they were each real, and might be comforted by that more than living a life of total illusion.

Would Vina even be alive? And if all Pike saw was an illusion of her, would he know the difference? We have no proof one way or the other.

I think I have decided how The Menagerie fits in my little corner of Trekdom...

Pike is still sitting in that room on Starbase 11. Everything we see in the episode is an illusion. From Pike's perspective he was taken from the Starbase to Talos IV to live out his days. The Enterprise was never at the Starbase to begin with.

 

[CoveTom]

There are, indeed, a lot plot holes with "The Menagerie" that lead to many questions. However, it's still a favorite episode of mine. I think they did a fairly clever job of figuring out how to take a pilot which was 100% different from the actual series and still manage to use it. Most series would have just junked the original pilot. Instead, we got to see the wonderful story that is "The Cage," and some backstory on the Enterprise that we probably never would have gotten otherwise.

 

[garamet]

There are, indeed, a lot plot holes with "The Menagerie" that lead to many questions. However, it's still a favorite episode of mine. I think they did a fairly clever job of figuring out how to take a pilot which was 100% different from the actual series and still manage to use it. Most series would have just junked the original pilot. Instead, we got to see the wonderful story that is "The Cage," and some backstory on the Enterprise that we probably never would have gotten otherwise.

This^. Let's not forget that "Menagerie" was written in a matter of days to fill out the schedule. There are any number of moments that make you go .

That's why it was so much fun to use as a basis on which to build a novel.

 

[Ronald Held]

With the Talosians able to project illusions at interstellar distances, how do you decide who is to be killed to prevent the contamination from continued existance?

 

[TrickyDickie]

There are, indeed, a lot plot holes with "The Menagerie" that lead to many questions. However, it's still a favorite episode of mine. I think they did a fairly clever job of figuring out how to take a pilot which was 100% different from the actual series and still manage to use it. Most series would have just junked the original pilot. Instead, we got to see the wonderful story that is "The Cage," and some backstory on the Enterprise that we probably never would have gotten otherwise.

This^. Let's not forget that "Menagerie" was written in a matter of days to fill out the schedule. There are any number of moments that make you go .

That's why it was so much fun to use as a basis on which to build a novel.

I am going to find a copy of your novel as soon as I can, because I am very intrigued. I have said elsewhere that 'Strangers from the Sky' is my favorite novel and if it is up on that level, it will be a real treat. Hope there are no lingering hard feelings over the 'Good Old Days' debate we had a few years ago. My lesson is learned, and I do apologize to you.

As far as the Mendez and long-range illusions situation goes....maybe Q or some other such being was working with the Talosians briefly and only within certain parameters for a specific reason.

The illusions themselves would not be my cup of tea....too much like the nexus. If I can't make a difference, I would rather die and see what comes next....no matter what it might be.

 

[garamet]

There are, indeed, a lot plot holes with "The Menagerie" that lead to many questions. However, it's still a favorite episode of mine. I think they did a fairly clever job of figuring out how to take a pilot which was 100% different from the actual series and still manage to use it. Most series would have just junked the original pilot. Instead, we got to see the wonderful story that is "The Cage," and some backstory on the Enterprise that we probably never would have gotten otherwise.

This^. Let's not forget that "Menagerie" was written in a matter of days to fill out the schedule. There are any number of moments that make you go .

That's why it was so much fun to use as a basis on which to build a novel.

I am going to find a copy of your novel as soon as I can, because I am very intrigued. I have said elsewhere that 'Strangers from the Sky' is my favorite novel and if it is up on that level, it will be a real treat. Hope there are no lingering hard feelings over the 'Good Old Days' debate we had a few years ago. My lesson is learned, and I do apologize to you.

Long since forgotten.

As far as the Mendez and long-range illusions situation goes....maybe Q or some other such being was working with the Talosians briefly and only within certain parameters for a specific reason.

The illusions themselves would not be my cup of tea....too much like the nexus. If I can't make a difference, I would rather die and see what comes next....no matter what it might be.

Which is why, as Marco Palmieri pointed out during one of our brainstorming sessions for this book, there had to be something more for Pike to do on Talos IV. Between us, I believe we found a good balance.

 

[xortex]

I think the illusion was Pike's accident itself. He was never injured. They just made us think that. After seeding the Talosian race which turn out to just be us in the future, he went back to being a Starship Captain/Ambassador but this time with the First Federation and with Bailey as a first officer of all things now and Balok as the science officer leaving the Talosians in a sadistic delerium.

 

[TrickyDickie]

As far as the Mendez and long-range illusions situation goes....maybe Q or some other such being was working with the Talosians briefly and only within certain parameters for a specific reason.

The illusions themselves would not be my cup of tea....too much like the nexus. If I can't make a difference, I would rather die and see what comes next....no matter what it might be.

Which is why, as Marco Palmieri pointed out during one of our brainstorming sessions for this book, there had to be something more for Pike to do on Talos IV. Between us, I believe we found a good balance.

I will be getting a copy mighty soon. Can't wait.

 

[Warped9]

Someone please come up with a theory that explains the shuttle travelling at warp, and catching up to the Enterprise, though no one can, I realize.

There is no theory needed. There is no explicit reference or evidence saying shuttlecraft are only sublight vehicles and plenty of onscreen evidence in TOS to support that they are indeed warp capable. It's only later in TNG that there's a reference to a shuttle being incapable only sublight capable, IIRC.

Indeed the shuttlecraft are practically useless if they don't have warp capability because the Enterprise can get to wherever the shuttlecraft would need to be and back faster if the craft were limited strictly to sublight.

In "The Menagerie" it's stated the Enterprise is indeed pulling away from the shuttlecraft. If the shuttlecraft were limited to sublight it would have still have been in the system where SB11 is located while the Enterprise would be halfway to Talos VI at warp. That said it was still a rash decision on Kirk's part to attempt chasing the Enterprise. He had to have been counting on Spock suspecting who was chasing him and stopping to bring them aboard rather than leaving them stranded in deep space far from anywhere.

 

[Timo]

There is no explicit reference or evidence saying shuttlecraft are only sublight vehicles and plenty of onscreen evidence in TOS to support that they are indeed warp capable.

Plus TOS is rife with examples of a starship starting out slow (warp 1 or 2) even when embarking on a long journey. Kirk might be able to catch his ship if he was in luck and acted very quickly. But the chase would become hopeless very soon - and Kirk's decision not to turn back was indeed suicidal unless we count in his trust in Spock.

It's only later in TNG that there's a reference to a shuttle being incapable only sublight capable, IIRC.

No explicit references there either way - just a bit in "Q Who?" where Q hijacks Picard and a shuttlecraft and Riker (somewhat falsely) surmises that Picard has gone missing in a shuttle. Riker then starts a search within a radius that the shuttle could have reached on impulse in the time allotted. But he has to start somewhere, and he might later expand his search to the radius the shuttle could have reached at maximum warp. It's just not worth the while if this radius creates a volume that would take weeks to search; better to start out optimistically.

the Enterprise can get to wherever the shuttlecraft would need to be and back faster if the craft were limited strictly to sublight

Except in "no-warp zones" or "no-starship zones", which are known to include planetary atmospheres, dense asteroid fields and certain anomalies, but may in fact be more common than that...

He had to have been counting on Spock suspecting who was chasing him and stopping

Indeed. Not a bad bet as such; threatening with suicide would be a good way to test Spock's resolve in face of an already mortal threat. OTOH, if Kirk could reach these depths of space in a shuttle, somebody else from SB11 would get there eventually as well - so the risk might not be quite as great as suggested.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Depends on how long the shuttle had been travelling at warp for - they were running pretty low on oxygen, from what I remember.

 

[T'Girl]

1) Death penalty on Talos IV visits? The only death penalty in (Starfleet? UFP?) law? What is so significant here that people must die

Or death is the maximum possible penilty, with a lesser punishment being more likely.

2) Mendez is an illusion?

But how long was Mendez in illusion? Was it was just from the time Kirk heard that the Enterprise was warping out of orbit, then Kirk goes running to where the shuttles are kept, with false Mendez on his heels.

This might show a limit to the Talosian's power to project. Mendez would only have to be appearing to Kirk initially, no one else really needed to see false Mendez at the Starbase. And the Talosian were not projecting full illusional surroundings to Kirk, just Mendez.

1) Talos is perceived as a threat because short range telepathy would allow Talosians to hijack a starship and then take over the galaxy.

The threat was that people would gain the Talosian powers, not that the Talosian would "take over the galaxy."

*******************

It would seem to be implied that the shuttle was warp speed capable, it ran out of fuel so quickly (imho) because Kirk was pushing it to maximum speed and perhaps was overtaking the Enterprise, if the fuel had held out, Kirk could have caught his ship.

 

[Timo]

Or death is the maximum possible penalty, with a lesser punishment being more likely.

...I'd say less likely, considering that Spock was to be executed merely for allowing a brief communication with Talos to take place.

But how long was Mendez an illusion?

...Or was the disappearance of Mendez the illusion, the Talosian solution to the problem of him being a hair's breadth away from having Spock executed?

Perhaps the Talosians stayed the hand of the flag officer by making him invisible and incapable of commanding Kirk's redshirts, and by sending a false message of pardon in his name. And then having Mendez moved to the planet where he would add to the gene pool of the slave race or the menu of the next dinner.

The threat was that people would gain the Talosian powers, not that the Talosian would "take over the galaxy."

The Talosians themselves quoted that as a problem. Starfleet never explained what had them worried enough that they slapped the death penalty on Talos contact. Gaining of self-destructive powers would hardly have warranted that; Starfleet supposedly doesn't execute people for drowning in the bottle, either. Or for kayaking above and beyond the limits of reason.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gary7]

If the Talosians could reach into the mind of Captain Kirk and cause him to "see" Mendez join him aboard the shuttle at SB11, then they could reach a myriad of other likely human candidates and get them to come join them at Talos IV, right? They were desperate. Remember, the Talosians said "Your unsuitability has condemned the Talosian race to eventual death." "No other race has shown your level of adaptability. You were our last hope." Why give up on just one human subject? Certainly they'd surmise that individual human psychology is far more diverse than there are separate nations. Vina didn't resist to the point of trying to starve herself. She cooperated. So, other humans might cooperate as well.

But, it's a story and perhaps the Talosians reached a rash conclusion. They simply realized that for most human beings, they have a unique hatred of captivity and so the Talosians realized a moral obligation not to torture any human subjects for a prolonged period of time (the only tortures they did were to gain cooperation, which they'd hoped would soon become unnecessary).

So... why would Mendez be an illusion? Perhaps for the ease of puppetry at extreme distances--they create an illusion, rather than having to constantly fool the real Mendez to do their bidding. Maybe Mendez knowing Jim Kirk as well as he does, he wouldn't pursue the court martial as his doppleganger did and instead help with the focus on regaining control of the ship. But if they can make an illusion of Mendez, couldn't they fool the crew in believing they have regained control and are heading back to the Starbase when in fact they're still going to Talos IV? I have to believe the Talosians have some limitations. A sustained illusion for over 430 crew members would be enormous.

Anyway, a 50 minute TV show has to accomplish a lot in a short period of time. There will always be loop holes and weak points. We can either imagine explanations, or simply view them as oversights. I understand the desire to find a plausible explanation, to neatly wrap it all up into a believable story. So... why not compromise:

The Talosians have very limited abilities of illusion at extreme distances. They can't control minds or convince people to operate controls differently from reality, but they can make apparitions that appear convincingly for a very select few people, if done with the combined concentration of many Talosians simultaneously. As the Enterprise comes closer to Talos IV, the energy to create the Mendez illusion eases. Maybe Mendez had other obligations on the Starbase, and when Kirk was prepared to go aboard the shuttle, the fake Mendez shows up and tells Kirk that he changed his plans and demands to go with him. Kirk doesn't bother to clear the crew manifest with Starbase operations and simply takes off.

Now, why would Kirk try to pursue the Enterprise when it would clearly be able to outrun the shuttle? He gambled that whoever was in control of the Enterprise, presumably Mr. Spock, would see the shuttle making a pointless attempt to reach the Enterprise going past the point of a safe return back to the starbase, and consequently retrieve the shuttle. Which is exactly what happened. Was it a real gamble? Well, I have to believe that these shuttles can dock with each other (it would be stupid not to provide some kind of emergency adjoining device) and another shuttle could come out for rescue upon receipt of the distress beacon. Still, a serious risk... there could be all kinds of problems in the process that would risk the lives of those aboard.


As for the death penalty, this is clearly a strong influence of 1960's mentality at work. We even see in TNG that the death penalty was abolished. The benevolent principles of Starfleet from the beginning suggest the kind of philosophy that is against killing anyone unless they are an enemy combatant. But just as we have capital punishment today in several states within the USA, we also see plenty of cases where it is not enforced or repealed at the last minute. It is my belief that the death penalty is a deterrent, but not a forced decision with no recourse. It is circumstantial... and we see that happen when the message is received from the real Mendez at SB11 stating "In view of historic importance of Captain Pike in space exploration, General Order Seven prohibiting contact Talos Four is suspended this occasion. No action contemplated against Spock. Proceed as you think best."

As for it not being mentioned in the last episode, where "GO 4" is the only one with a death penalty consequence, I think it's possible that GO 7 still exists and is not cited simply because the context is completely irrelevant (their situation has nothing to do with Talos IV). But it was likely omitted because there wasn't a facts guru on staff to make sure all facts were cross checked.

 

[Timo]

If the Talosians could reach into the mind of Captain Kirk and cause him to "see" Mendez join him aboard the shuttle at SB11, then they could reach a myriad of other likely human candidates and get them to come join them at Talos IV, right?

Their powers may reach through time rather than space, though. Perhaps they only made Kirk misremember having seen Mendez on the shuttle near SB 11, even though the actual telepathic manipulation only took place near Talos IV several hours or days later?

Vina didn't resist to the point of trying to starve herself. She cooperated.

What Pike saw was cooperating. What Pike saw could have been an illusion, though.

Perhaps the Talosians were bluffing with an empty hand, making Pike think they already had a live human captive even though Pike was their first. This is a favored interrogation tactic, after all: make the victim believe his pals have already ratted out on him, make him think that his cooperation will only add an insignificant little to a greater betrayal that has already taken place elsewhere, by other people.

In the end, Pike did decide the Talosians held no trump cards, even though he seemed to remain in the belief that they held Vina. How could he come to this conclusion? Well, by deducing that even if Vina really was alive, she wasn't fertile any more. A bit trusting of him, admittedly: Talosians would have every motivation to lie to him about Vina's physical state, especially about her being crippled and infertile and no threat to future starfarers in this respect.

So... why would Mendez be an illusion? Perhaps for the ease of puppetry at extreme distances--they create an illusion, rather than having to constantly fool the real Mendez to do their bidding.

Indeed. As already pointed out, they fooled Pike with a projection: a Vina that was at least partially faked. Fooling Kirk with another projection would only be consistent, and Talosians appeared to be the archetype of consistent, i.e. unimaginative (despite being masters of illusion and dreams, which is a nice paradox in itself).

I have to believe the Talosians have some limitations.

If we're to believe that "The Cage" did not end with the heroes still in the throes of a malevolent illusion, then we have to conclude the Talosians were so limited they utterly failed in manipulating even a single man - to wit, Chris Pike.

Was this failure due to their insufficient powers? If so, their actions in "The Menagerie" are consistent with limited powers and they finally achieve their original goal of capturing and securing Pike, who is now sufficiently weakened to be subverted. Yes, the actions are overtly complex, but so were their original attempts at turning Pike in "The Cage"...

Or was the original failure due to a sudden change of heart, as the Talosian spokesbeing seems to suggest? That would also be consistent with them making a second attempt as shown in "The Menagerie", this time with more benevolent aims. Their power might reach across lightyears, but would still be insufficient for turning the head of a determined man, be he far or near. Yet Pike might now be willing to donate sperm when he sees the seeming benevolence of his captors; even if they do breed a slave race, they will now do it humanely, as evidenced by their humane actions towards Pike. Everybody else would still mightily resist Talosian designs, so they would have to be subjected to illusions of fake allies and the rest of the familiar trickery. But once they saw Pike being treated well, they'd yield.

Yet this second interpretation is a highly implausible one. It has the Talosians believing that humans will trust them this time around. It has Mendez (real or fake) telling that Starfleet is happy with the outcome. Both of these are big whoppers with fries - extremely poor examples of the Roddenberry thinking where every conflict stems from misunderstanding and is solved by talking. If the story is based on one side telling lies as a habit, nay, as a biological function, then a resolution based on the establishing of dialogue can't be a happy one.

Worse still, no dialogue is established! When Pike dives into his happy illusion, he doesn't regain the power of speech: he cannot and does not express consent to Kirk, Spock or Starfleet.

The conclusion is much more plausible if we interpret it as showing the Talosians winning. They get Pike, they make Kirk go away, and they feed everybody pleasant untruths in order to make this happen. They could do it within spitting distance of Talos, too: every illusion could be fed into the minds of the heroes "afterwards", and in actual fact SB 11 might never have been made aware of Spock hijacking the Enterprise and contacting and reaching Talos IV.

Timo Saloniemi