Talosian illusion powers and the fate of Pike

[Timo]

Alas, there's that.

Yet in "The Menagerie" we get a rare example of Spock acting out of identifiably human motivations. It would be nice to be able to see some of his trademark inhuman logic in how he tackles the task...

Of course, the Talosian contribution is of help here, because these guys/gals/others are already established in "The Cage" as possessing alien mindsets, idiosyncrasies and telepathic tunnel vision. As soon as they get involved, logic will take strange turns indeed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[UssGlenn]

didn't the keeper warn Kirk that if the federation tried to help the Talosians directly, the prolonged contact would lead to humans learning the illusion powers, risking the destruction of human society as well? If that is the case then eventually Pike and Vina would be able to construct their own Fantasies, without outside help.

Additionally, with regards to the Mendez illusion, How does Spock react to the disappearance? I can't remember. Is it possible he helped the Talosions expand their range as part of the plan through some sort of relay device? Spock would have to keep control over it, however, otherwise he'd be creating the very problem we are debating.

 

[CoveTom]

I have no doubt he would've went along since the Enterprise was stolen from his facility.

I'm not quite so sure about that. Going after a starship in a shuttle sounds too insane for the real Mendez to even contemplate doing. But if Kirk is provided with an illusory Mendez who doesn't stop to contemplate, then Kirk (who also should have enough sense not to do something that stupid) could be fooled into acting against his own better judgement...

But why would the Talosians want to encourage Kirk to go after the Enterprise in a shuttle? That only increases the possibility of a way being found to stop the ship and derail their plans. It seems more likely to me that Kirk decided to go after them on his own, and the Talosians decided at the last minute it would be best to send along the illusion of Mendez in order to, as they said, create the fiction of a court martial and keep Kirk from regaining control of the ship too quickly.

 

[Timo]

That'd work well, too. Although we might speculate that Kirk and the real Mendez both gave chase, and the Talosians just removed Mendez from the equation at some point because he wasn't being cooperative.

Apparently, the writers were thinking that in order to have the trial they wanted (with the "visual evidence presentations" that allowed for the clip show format), they needed somebody who would outrank Kirk. I'd have been happier if they had figured out a way to use Pike for that role...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CoveTom]

I still don't understand why it was necessary for Mendez to be an illusion at all. I think having him be an illusion sort of undercuts the whole point of the story. Having Mendez be an illusion means that the Talosians can use their powers of illusion on those who are far away from Talos IV.

But iff the Talosians could use their powers of illusion on individuals that far away from Talos IV, then why would the whole ordeal have been necessary in the first place? They could have simply made Kirk and Company believe they were headed for a vacation on some nice garden spot planet when in fact they were setting course for Talos IV. They never need even know they had visited the planet.

Why not simply have Mendez be the real Mendez? Would it change anything essential about the story? They could still have given chase in the shuttle, still undertook the court martial, still viewed all the "evidence," and still had Mendez decide to suspend the rules to avoid punishing Kirk and Spock.

 

[Timo]

The demonstration that Talosians can create illusions as far out as SB11 is the only reason Starfleet would let Kirk and Spock live. The death penalty was intended to contain the Talosian threat, and would only do the trick if actually implemented. But if the threat demonstrably cannot be contained, then Kirk and Spock do not have to die.

A real Mendez would simply be added to the Starfleet list of "people to kill", regardless of what he saw, said or recommended or ordered. Supposedly, had the President of the UFP accompanied Kirk or Spock, he or she or it would also have been gunned down without hesitation, in the name of galactic security.

In retrospect, then, the illusory Mendez does serve the story. Especially as "Turnabout Intruder" later indicates that General Order 7 no longer carries a death penalty (but that GO 4 does).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

The demonstration that Talosians can create illusions as far out as SB11 is the only reason Starfleet would let Kirk and Spock live. The death penalty was intended to contain the Talosian threat, and would only do the trick if actually implemented. But if the threat demonstrably cannot be contained, then Kirk and Spock do not have to die.

I really think you're reaching here. While Spock contacted the Talosians and the Enterprise did enter their space. There is no evidence of malice, only to ensure a decorated hero spent the rest of his days in comfort and no Starfleet officer actually stepped on Talosian soil other than Pike.

It simply boiled down to a mission of mercy and I have no doubt that Starfleet classified it as such.

"It's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission..."

A real Mendez would simply be added to the Starfleet list of "people to kill", regardless of what he saw, said or recommended or ordered. Supposedly, had the President of the UFP accompanied Kirk or Spock, he or she or it would also have been gunned down without hesitation, in the name of galactic security.

This is just ridiculous. Why would Starfleet execute people who weren't responsible for the mission? By this logic, they would have to execute the entire Enterprise crew who were just along for the ride.

 

[Timo]

There is no evidence of malice

Of course not - any more than there would be malice in some drunken idiot going into a tiger cage or a bioweapons storage facility. Doesn't make it less of a crime; stupidity is still punishable, and stupidity that endangers the future of the Federation could certainly be punishable by death.

It simply boiled down to a mission of mercy and I have no doubt that Starfleet classified it as such.

Sure. And then carried out the death sentences. The idiots were dead already, after all - they had been co-opted by the Talosians. No way they could be let loose in the outside universe.

Except that the evidence of the interstellar reach of the Talosians would establish that even death would be too little, too late. Which is why Starfleet would pardon the fatally reckless violators, and then go and change GO 7.

Why would Starfleet execute people who weren't responsible for the mission? By this logic, they would have to execute the entire Enterprise crew who were just along for the ride.

Most definitely. Indeed, they would have to destroy the whole ship from a distance in order to be sure. Responsibility is irrelevant - contamination is everything. No doubt the criminals would receive all sorts of medals for bravery and conduct becoming of Starfleet officers and crew, to be sent to their widows after the executions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CoveTom]

Most definitely. Indeed, they would have to destroy the whole ship from a distance in order to be sure. Responsibility is irrelevant - contamination is everything. No doubt the criminals would receive all sorts of medals for bravery and conduct becoming of Starfleet officers and crew, to be sent to their widows after the executions.

Timo Saloniemi

Okay, now you're really reaching. In fact, there HAS been a ship that visited Talos IV and was under the direct influence of the Talosians... the Enterprise. And yet Starfleet, even though they imposed General Order 7 with its death penalty punishment, did not gun down Captain Pike and his crew. While we don't know the fates of each individual crew member, Pike was still in active service until an accident rendered him an invalid, and Spock went on to a long and prosperous (pardon the pun) career after the Talos IV incident.

If Starfleet's purpose in having a death sentence for those who visit Talos IV was that they feared some sort of long-lasting contamination as a result of their visit, then why wouldn't they execute the one crew that actually HAD visited the planet and been directly under mind control?

 

[Timo]

Because it would be too late? Hard to tell.

The fact stands that Starfleet at some point did decide that people going to Talos IV should die. Intent or malice does not feature in it in any way: even a crew in an emergency is expected to voluntarily die in space if the alternative is to find safety on Talos IV.

Mendez: "Know anything at all about this planet?"
Kirk: "What every ship captain knows. General Order 7: no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos IV."
Mendez: "And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that."

What the dialogue doesn't specify is who should die for the offense. But since malice is already ruled out as a factor, there's no particular incentive to think that only the bad guys, the guilty ones, should die.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Well we know that Starfleet is 100% rigid in enforcing the rule book. No flexibility exists... ever.

You're going into a really weird area trying to justify Mendez being an illusion, Timo.

 

[BillJ]

If Starfleet's purpose in having a death sentence for those who visit Talos IV was that they feared some sort of long-lasting contamination as a result of their visit, then why wouldn't they execute the one crew that actually HAD visited the planet and been directly under mind control?

Or, at the very least, ground every person who went there or out-and-out discharge them from the service. Pike evidently commanded the Enterprise for several more years with Spock at his side.

 

[Timo]

No, I'm trying to justify Starfleet slapping a death penalty on visiting Talos IV. That's the actual mystery here (and the biggest dramatically motivated whopper in the framing story of "The Menagerie") - and a quarantine measure would appear to be the only sensible explanation for it.

Note that the story establishes Kirk as a co-criminal, a co-executionee, when his shuttle is taken aboard the starship hijacked by Spock. Intent is again negated as a factor: only the fact that Kirk is headed for Talos IV counts.

Mendez: "Mister Spock, you're aware of the orders regarding any contact with Talos Four. You have deliberately invited the death penalty. You've not only finished yourself, Spock, but you've finished your Captain as well."

Note that this is well before the ship has reached the planet - Spock is to be killed specifically because he allowed a transmission from Talos to be displayed on the viewscreen of the courtroom. And so is his victim Kirk. (Unless Mendez is speaking of Pike - but he is a victim of Spock, too, not a co-conspirator.)

So, Starfleet insists that the innocent be killed: this is explicit in the episode, and not something that needs to be argued. Why this would be calls for an explanation, though. And this is where the illusory Mendez comes in.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

The finished line as it applies to Kirk is his career. That is the way I've always read it.

Mendez also opens another can of worms. If they can broadcast a consistent illusion over light-years into the minds of multiple people, why the need to take Pike to Talos IV in the first place? No one would've been the wiser that Pike was living a fantasy life inside his head.

 

[BillJ]

So, Starfleet insists that the innocent be killed: this is explicit in the episode, and not something that needs to be argued.

No, Starfleet has a death penalty. But there is no mention of it being iron-clad. Like the Prime Directive, we have no idea what type of extraordinary circumstances may allow an officer to justify a visit.

In DC Annual #2, Kirk is drawn to Talos by Klingons who have learned the Talosians mind powers. Should the entire crew of the Enterprise be executed because of it?

No rule is absolute... this is especially true in Star Trek.

 

[UnknownSample]

As for the first Enterprise visit earning them the death penalty, I'd be stunned to find out my memory is wrong about this being the Federation's first encounter with Talos IV. I think the Cage bridge scene establishes this. The death penalty must have been the Federation's response to Pike's experiences there.

Timo says that the death penalty here has nothing to do with punishing wrongdoing, but instead "contamination", and I have to agree, since it's such an extraordinary measure. You could call it a desperate and panicky reaction, actually. Some people did a lot of thinking about the possibilities of mental manipulation and impersonations, say, on the part of Talosians or others who visit them, and eventually even a general undermining of society's basic belief in the "reality" around them. I wouldn't blame anyone for putting up an immediate, absolute firewall against all that, even if it was excessive. The paranoia must have been considerably worse than when Founders were thought to be everywhere...



Someone please come up with a theory that explains the shuttle travelling at warp, and catching up to the Enterprise, though no one can, I realize. I can imagine Kirk just fantasizing that he's taking a shuttle and chasing the Enterprise (successfully!), with Kirk in reality having been stunned by Spock and carried onto the ship, and having spent that time unconscious as Spock's prisoner until the fantasy concludes with a seamless, perfect segue into reality (except for the continuing presence of Mendez on the Enterprise)... the only catch being that it doesn't help the Talosians one bit. I'm not serious. The shuttle chasing a starship just bugs me.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

I still don't understand why it was necessary for Mendez to be an illusion at all.

The Talosians like deception and drama. The Talosians wanted Pike to know about the hidden door in the wall of his cage so he could try to escape. Only to fail and end up on the planet surface where they wanted him to be in the first place.

So revealing that Commodore Mendez was an illusion was more dramatic than having Mendez there. Perhaps Spock's Vulcan mental abilities helped the Talosians boost their range of illusion temporarily. Remember Spock's mind heard 400 Vulcan minds die on the Intrepid in the episode "The Immunity Syndrome".

"The Menagerie, Part 2" Excerpt courtesy of website:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16b.htm

[Planet surface]

PIKE: Make contact, Number One.

NUMBER ONE: They kept us from seeing this, too. We cut through and never knew it. Captain.

KEEPER: As you see, your attempt to escape accomplished nothing.

PIKE: I want to contact our ship.

KEEPER: You are now on the surface where we wished you to be. With the female of your choice, you will now begin carefully guided lives.

"The Immunity Syndrome" Excerpt courtesy of website:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/48.htm

[Sickbay]

(Spock is on a biobed, being scanned.)
SPOCK: I assure you, Doctor, I am quite all right. The pain was momentary. It passed quickly.

MCCOY: All of my instruments seem to agree with you if I can trust these crazy Vulcan readings. Spock, how can you be so sure the lntrepid was destroyed?

(Spock gets off the bed.)
SPOCK: I sensed it die.

MCCOY: But I thought you had to be in physical contact with a subject before

SPOCK: Doctor, even I, a half-Vulcan, could hear the death scream of four hundred Vulcan minds crying out over the distance between us.

MCCOY: Not even a Vulcan could feel a starship die.

SPOCK: Call it a deep understanding of the way things happen to Vulcans, but I know not a person, not even the computers on board the Intrepid, knew what was killing them or would have understood it had they known.

MCCOY: But four hundred Vulcans?

SPOCK: I've noticed that about your people, Doctor. You find it easier to understand the death of one than the death of a million. You speak about the objective hardness of the Vulcan heart, yet how little room there seems to be in yours.

MCCOY: Suffer the death of thy neighbour, eh, Spock? You wouldn't wish that on us, would you?

SPOCK: It might have rendered your history a bit less bloody.

Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

post deleted.

 

[RPJOB]

Makes me wonder why Spock didn't react as strongly when Vulcan was destroyed in the latest movie. Is he less psionic? Hasn't had as much training in the mental arts? There were billions of Vulcans who had time to realize that their planet was doomed and Spock hardly reacted at all, at least compared to how SPock Prime did at the death of 400 Vulcans from light years distance.

 

[T'Girl]

He was already reacting to the death of his mother before his eyes, and may have been in psychological shutdown at the moment of all those Vulcan's deaths. By the time he regained his senses, the moment was gone.

So in a way, Spock was shielded.