You know, Pike's fate on Talos IV seems far less optimistic than the episode suggests. The quality of his life on that planet seems dependent on the extent of the Talosians' mental abilities. If all they can do is simply project illusions, then at the end of the day won't he simply be spending the rest of his days imagining that he and Vina are spending he rest of their lives together when in fact all is he really doing is sitting in a chair in the corner of a room somewhere? (One hopes that Vina remembers to dust him off every now and then). Couldn't he have achieved essentially the same fate by sitting him in the equivalent of a holodeck or jacking him in matrix style into some computer system? He and Vina could only ever have the equivalent of a shared dream since at the end of the day he can't move from that chair.
Talosian illusion powers and the fate of Pike
- Thread starter Gotham Central
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No, because there's no much virtual reality type tech indicates in Star Trek the original, and, since the Talosian illusions are in your mind, you feel the experiences as if they are happening. As such, in that circumstance, Pike's free to be young and virile as long as he lives or at least as long as his brain functions. It's not reality, but it feels like reality, which beats sitting, immobile, in a wheeled box.
Well, it's tragic, there's no doubt about that. Especially when you consider that theme of "The Cage" about choosing to live in reality "with all the bruises and skinned-knees" versus living in illusions. In "The Cage," the choice of living in reality is reaffirmed for Pike. In "The Menagerie," all anyone can do for the poor man is to try to take his pain away.
It's sad, but if I was in the invalid Pike's condition, I might've decided too that life on Talos would be better than going back to Earth.
His life as a near vegetable in a chair with no means of speaking is a far greater tragedy. At least on Talos IV, Pike's thoughts are channeled through the Talosians so he can at least speak to Vina, but of course the physicality is just as important. The only really weird thing about it, is that he has "editors" in his head at all times. He is never alone. When he is with Vina, he's also with one or more Talosians, even when being intimate. He also has to rely upon the purity of the Talosians, that they will be true to form and not distort or color what he experiences. Being human, he will no doubt at times wonder if... maybe, just maybe, he's not getting the "real deal". But there's nothing he can do about it, as the very wondering is what the Talosians will also read. I guess, in a way, you could consider the Talosians a "mental symbiote" for him.
If they had the ability to do that, he already wouldn't be limited to "one beep" or "two beeps".
Beeps are all they could do for the guy, since according to McCoy "We've learned to tie into every organ in the body except one, the brain".
Exactly. Therefore they couldn't jack him into the Matrix, either, which was my point.
And whose illusion is it that Pike walks to Vina on his own two feet? Pike's? Or Kirk's?
Supposedly, the Talosians just wanted Pike's sperm. Making Pike feel good wouldn't need to be part of that deal (except perhaps periodically). Making everybody else think Pike felt good would be a good idea, though.
Although now that the Talosians had Pike, one wonders who else they might have grabbed. Even if Kirk counted his men and women at the conclusion of the adventure, there's no reason to believe he would count correctly...
Timo Saloniemi
Supposedly, the Talosians just wanted Pike's sperm. Making Pike feel good wouldn't need to be part of that deal (except perhaps periodically). Making everybody else think Pike felt good would be a good idea, though.
Although now that the Talosians had Pike, one wonders who else they might have grabbed. Even if Kirk counted his men and women at the conclusion of the adventure, there's no reason to believe he would count correctly...
Timo Saloniemi
What possible difference does it make ?
Of course, there's no way of really knowing, but if those "delta rays" are as damaging as was implied in the narrative, I suspect any sperm produced would be too badly "mutated" to produce viable offspring (provided Pike still has the required anatomy). And Vina, she's possibly past child-bearing years by the time of "The Menagerie". Remember, she was really an adult when the Columbia crashed. Add (was it) 18 years when Pike originally arrived, and then add another 13 years when Spock "kidnapped" the injured fleet captain. Shoot, it's possible Vina may be dead.
Sincerely,
Bill
Sincerely,
Bill
garamet's novel Burning Dreams deals with this well, IMHO - Pike is essentially acting as a cultural liason to the Talosians as well as partaking of their illusions to ease his pain. In the long run, whilst he and Vina can't have kids, their influence on the Talosians re-invigorates that races' society.
Thanks for referencing that; I hadn't read this. Very nice interpretation. That's how I like to look at it. The Talosians weren't aggressive conquerors, but more like curious scientists lacking an understanding of fundamental rights for intelligent beings. They were remorseful at the end of Pike's first visit, yet also dejected by what appeared to be a grim demise after losing a promising species to study. While they still craved to have humans to study, they wouldn't take them against their will. Pike returning was a symbiotic event. The Talosians get to live through the lives of Chris and Vina, meanwhile both of them benefit from the illusions of excellent health and youth provided by the Talosians.
Which is an oddly racist shortcoming for them to have - at this point of the story!
They have a menagerie of species trapped underground. Supposedly, many if not all of these creatures were captured from passing starships. How could they fail to teach the Talosians the first thing about fundamental rights?
It sort of seems that the Talosians only learn under extreme duress: they respect the rights of those who are willing to annihilate them in suicidal revenge if they fail to show respect, and ignore the rights of those who cut their losses and leave their loved ones behind.
Timo Saloniemi
What happened to Pike when the power cell for his chair ran out?
...Why should they run out faster than Pike's life does? We have seldom heard of stored power running out in Star Trek - Captain Tracey's hand phasers against a thousands-strong army is really the only case that comes to mind. On the other hand, Starfleet gear can recharge from just about anything, and conversely can be used to power up just about anything as well.
The big mystery about the chair is how this Dalek-like contraption managed to get from the beam-down location to the Talosian elevator. Did it have a seldom seen special cross country mode where it ramps up the hover power and a tinny voice starts saying "Elevate! Elevate!"?
Timo Saloniemi
The big mystery about the chair is how this Dalek-like contraption managed to get from the beam-down location to the Talosian elevator. Did it have a seldom seen special cross country mode where it ramps up the hover power and a tinny voice starts saying "Elevate! Elevate!"?
Timo Saloniemi
Well, it's possible Spock beamed Pike square upon the elevator platform and what Kirk "saw" upon the monitor (a healthy Pike ascending the incline with an equally healthy Vina) was just a romantic gesture (probably gleened from Vina's mind).
Or, Spock beamed Pike straight into the tunnel complex. If the Enterprise of 13 years prior could do it, surely the Big E under Kirk's command would have no problems.
Sincerely,
Bill
Or, Spock beamed Pike straight into the tunnel complex. If the Enterprise of 13 years prior could do it, surely the Big E under Kirk's command would have no problems.
Sincerely,
Bill
The bigger, weirder issue raised by the whole Mendez as illusion thing is that it invalidates everything that happens. If the Talosians could affect people's minds way over at the Starbase, they could have used illusions to make everyone do whatever they wanted, and Kirk and Spock could have beamed up and set course for planet whatnot, no one but Spock realizing they're heading for Talos IV. The whole can of worms is caused by the silly "gotcha" of Mendez not having been there: a plot twist that wasn't needed and created a giant logic loophole.
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Just me being silly for a moment...
Maybe the Talosians developed a "sense of drama" having tapped into Vina's mind over the years.
Magistrate: "Would it not be more effective to (repeats Maurice's far more logical plan)?"
Keeper: True, but where's the 'fun' in that?"
Sincerely,
Bill
Maybe the Talosians developed a "sense of drama" having tapped into Vina's mind over the years.
Magistrate: "Would it not be more effective to (repeats Maurice's far more logical plan)?"
Keeper: True, but where's the 'fun' in that?"
Sincerely,
Bill
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