T.U. for T.U.!

[T'Bonz]

Oh, I love Turnabout Intruder.

The sexism wasn't part of the future, it was the reality of the time in which the episode was written. It's one of those things to which I don't pay much attention. We all know that the future is better than that which was written in the sexist 1960s.

 

[pookha]

Lester's line was Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women.

That's pretty unambiguous, isn't it?

But is that supposed to be based on fact, or just her making a hysterical accusation in her blind rage?

i see it as she being locco out of control nuts.
spock even comes out says her perspective is warped.

remember she is even claiming kirk wants to kill her.
after she helped set up the deaths of her staff just to lure kirk to the planet.

 

[Ssosmcin]

The sexism wasn't part of the future, it was the reality of the time in which the episode was written. It's one of those things to which I don't pay much attention. We all know that the future is better than that which was written in the sexist 1960s.

And that is one thing that sometimes gets lost when discussing Star Trek. Even though Gene Roddenberry postulated a peaceful future for humanity where we all work together, the series was otherwise about then-comtemporary society. This is in the writer's guide, I believe. If he would really have made a show about humans in the far future, they would have been alien to us. However, Star Trek was no more about the men of the future any more than Bonanza or Gunsmoke was really about people from the 1800's. Trek only took place in the future so social commentary could be made in a forum which made it alien enough to avoid censorship.

So yes, there was tons o' sexism in the 60's and Trek reflected the time and the POV of the producers (hence the extremely revealing outfits on the ladies). TNG was about people in the 80's and 90's, that "feel good, discuss your feelings" age. Flash forward to Enterprise for that post 9-11 atmosphere.

It's my view that the Trek team was not saying "this is how it will be." They were saying "this is how it is now, but we'll tackle it in our future setting." Even though the episode didn't actually tackle the issue as much as use it as a plot point.

My real question is this: was it carelessness on the part of the writers, or was Dr. Coleman supposed to be bi-sexual? Or were they saying that real love transcends the physical body? Because otherwise, I can't see what Coleman would get emotional and physically from Lester keeping Kirk's body. He would have to be after the captain's log.

 

[Iowagirl]

.in fact, I even throught certain acting choices of his were very effective in creating the illusion of his body being inhabited by a woman, particularly little subtle (yes, I called Shatner's acting subtle! ) gestures like modulations in the pitch of his voice, his facial expressions (like pouting) and his body language in walking and speaking that actually did plausibly seem feminine without trying too hard.

THANK YOU! I have been saying this for years, he puts subtle touches in everything he does. Everyone is so hung up on the (mostly overstated) "Shatnerisms" that they actually shut out how much he layers his work. There's always more too his performances than is generally acknowledged, but people don't look past the surface to pay attention.

Ah, someone who has realized why Captain Kirk has become such a cultural icon... Shatner must've done one or two things right!

And yes, I like TI, too!

 

[BillJ]

Another fan here. Plus it is one of my wife's favorite episodes.

 

[T'Bonz]

The sexism wasn't part of the future, it was the reality of the time in which the episode was written. It's one of those things to which I don't pay much attention. We all know that the future is better than that which was written in the sexist 1960s.

And that is one thing that sometimes gets lost when discussing Star Trek.

Well, I was a young girl in the 1960s and a young teen when I first began watching Trek. I experienced prejudice against girls all of the time in that era.
"You can't play baseball/football with us." "Why not?" "You're a girl!"
"You can't do 'x.'" "Why not?" "You're a GIRL!" "So?"
This is in spite of the fact that in the preteen years, girls are as good at the sports as boys are. I would have LOVED to have tried for Little League as a girl. That door was firmly closed.

So I remember the times (and rejoice that things have improved) and know that it was the times in which that ep was written. Some people really believed that women were not capable of being a captain of a ship, or running a business or being President, etc. Now it may be hard to believe, but it was a very real and limiting attitude.

 

[Cakes488]

The sexism wasn't part of the future, it was the reality of the time in which the episode was written. It's one of those things to which I don't pay much attention. We all know that the future is better than that which was written in the sexist 1960s.

And that is one thing that sometimes gets lost when discussing Star Trek.

Well, I was a young girl in the 1960s and a young teen when I first began watching Trek. I experienced prejudice against girls all of the time in that era.
"You can't play baseball/football with us." "Why not?" "You're a girl!"
"You can't do 'x.'" "Why not?" "You're a GIRL!" "So?"
This is in spite of the fact that in the preteen years, girls are as good at the sports as boys are. I would have LOVED to have tried for Little League as a girl. That door was firmly closed.

So I remember the times (and rejoice that things have improved) and know that it was the times in which that ep was written. Some people really believed that women were not capable of being a captain of a ship, or running a business or being President, etc. Now it may be hard to believe, but it was a very real and limiting attitude.

Yeah!! You are so right with that little league example as I wasn't "allowed" to join either and my parents didn't fight for me...I really think that they agreed that it was for boys only!!!

 

[Moopsy]

TI is a guilty pleasure of mine, plus it has historic import as the very last episode of TOS. As for the sexism of the sixties and seventies, I remember it all too well, as I was forced to take home economics in ninth grade instead of general science because of my gender.

JL

 

[I am not Spock]

That's a good point mentioned above that All Our Yesterdays should have been the finale. They should have swapped TU and AOY around, and shown the latter as the finale.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I don't see what the big deal about "All Our Yesterdays" is. I thought all the stuff with the library and the different worlds Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are separated into was alternately cheesy and boring and the premise of Spock getting romantically involved with a woman was already handled much better in "This Side of Paradise". Neither episode really has the right feel for a series finale, but I like how "Turnabout Intruder" at least has "if only" as the last words, which when you think about it are actually pretty fitting last words for a show so much about imagination, idealism, and exploring The Great Unknown.

 

[Michael]

Re: T.U. for T.I.!

I don't see what the big deal about "All Our Yesterdays" is. I thought all the stuff with the library and the different worlds Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are separated into was alternately cheesy and boring and the premise of Spock getting romantically involved with a woman was already handled much better in "This Side of Paradise". Neither episode really has the right feel for a series finale, but I like how "Turnabout Intruder" at least has "if only" as the last words, which when you think about it are actually pretty fitting last words for a show so much about imagination, idealism, and exploring The Great Unknown.

But but but ... I love All Our Yesterdays! Granted, it has its cheesy moments, but that doesn't take away from my liking of the episode. I guess it's just a guilty pleasure of mine.

I know, the logic of this episode isn't really working all that good. The reverting of Spock's behaviour to one like that of Vulcans of the same time is quite dubious, I'll admit. I could also do without the 'Kirk trapped in the Middle Ages' storyline.

But there's one thing that this episode has going for it and that's the relationship between Spock and McCoy. I love their scenes together. And that's also the advantage of this episode over the (admittedly equally amazing) This Side of Paradise. Additionally I'm fascinated by the backstory of Zarabeth, who was sent back in time by a tyrant and is forced to spend the rest of her live in cold isolation. (It also helps that she is so skillfully portrayed by the beautiful Mariette Hartley.) In the end this episode also tells us much about Spock, one of the most intriguing characters in all of Trek. It says much that only after he is sent back in time several millennia in the past and has lost the confines of his Vulcan logic he can find love and companionship. Talk about isolation, eh ...

Last but not least I'm also quite fond of the dreamlike, melancholic atmosphere that is created in this episode by the cinematographic imagery of the snowy past of Sarpeidon. In my opinion, All Our Yesterdays is one of the best looking episode of the whole series.

As for how this episode would work as a series finale ... Well, I guess I'm biased as I love it so much. But I always felt that the last shot of the Enterprise escaping Beta Niobe going supernova had the quality of a good farewell for the series as a whole. But maybe that's just me.

 

[Doug Otte]

Well said, NCC. Although Shatner's scenes in the past in Yesterdays never did much for me, I found the Zarabeth sequences very touching. How much more poignant can you get? A beautiful woman and Spock have an intense relationship, then he leaves her behind, where she'll be alone in that prehistoric arctic wasteland for the rest of her life?

Although I enjoy TI in a completely different way, I feel that Yesterdays would have been a better episode to end the series.

Doug

 

[Michael]

Well said, NCC.

Aww, thank you, Doug.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I will concede that NCC puts forth a solid argument for "All Our Yesterdays" to be considered meritous both as an episode and as a potential finale. It does indeed show more reverence and affection for the characters of Spock and McCoy, and I suppose in that sense, it might have worked somewhat as a send-off. Speaking from a subjective standpoint, however, I also think "Turnabout Intruder" is just a more entertaining and tightly scripted episode overall.

Yes, it doesn't explore Spock as deeply, but like I said, it at least gives him a great moment of defiance and doesn't get unfortunately sidetracked with plodding digressions like the silliness in the library and Kirk's 'witch hunt' troubles. You're right about there being a nice poignancy to the Spock storyline, his romantic interest guest star being lovely, and the last shot being suitably iconic. I just think (to paraphrase an old expression), the whole wasn't as great as some of its parts. I believe that "Turnabout Intruder", while not as emotionally stimulating, holds together better in terms of the consistency of its entertainment value and storytelling/writing.