Symbiont thoughts and culture...

[Nerys Ghemor]

One of the opportunities we really missed in DS9, I think, was to find out more about the symbiont's end of things, when it comes to the Trill.

What do you guys think about the symbionts? We know they communicated with each other, in their native pools...I wonder if that was indeed some sort of language, and if so, what kinds of opinions and debates might exist in their culture?

(I wonder, if there are symbionts that would rather not join, just as there are some Trill humanoids who do not aspire to joining? That might also explain a lot of the strict rules about joining, too--if not only is their population so much lower than the humanoid one, but some symbionts have no wish to partake in the process, and in the past were indeed taken by force?)

 

[Myasishchev]

I never really thought of them as sapient. I mean, we hear all about (I mean, really) the previous humanoid lives of the Dax symbiont, but "the fifty years I spent in a stagnant pond" never came up.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

That's an interesting thought. How old are the symbionts? If they had millennia of sapience before first taking hosts (before becoming the "symbionts"- indeed, Trek lit suggests they think of themselves as "swimmers" or something like that), then are there moral or "political" factions opposed to this relatively new development? Conservative "swimmers" who reject their people's new status as "symbionts" and perhaps in some cases consider the modern Trill culture corruptive in some form? I mean, bringing flashy, fast-paced humanoid thoughts and experiences into the mix might be difficult for older symbionts to adapt to or accept, if things have worked harmoniously at their slower pace for so long.

Of course, Trek lit also suggested it is only the young symbionts who join, those small enough. And as those "joining" young symbionts were shown as lacking full telepathy which was found in the elder, deep-living symbionts- their communication abilities less developed- perhaps we could actually consider the joining symbionts the equivalent of babies, or at least young children? Maybe they therefore have less of a "culture" to begin with, and act more on impulse than thought? And maybe the enthusiasm for sensory input beyond their limits is a reflection of the desire to grow up? They find an outlet for these youthful urges in taking hosts and experiencing full mind-to-mind communication and additional sensory awareness that way? Maybe elder symbionts- if we accept the Trek lit model- consider their youthful joinings a rather laughable childish activity they look back on fondly but also self-mockingly?

 

[DevilEyes]

I never really thought of them as sapient. I mean, we hear all about (I mean, really) the previous humanoid lives of the Dax symbiont, but "the fifty years I spent in a stagnant pond" never came up.

All right, I am confused here, how could they not be sentient? The whole point of the Trill symbiosis is the neural and mental link between the host and the symbiont. How could that work if the symbiont had a mind no more developed than, say a dog or a lizard? How would a non-sapient mind process the experiences and knowledge of a sapient species?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I never really thought of them as sapient. I mean, we hear all about (I mean, really) the previous humanoid lives of the Dax symbiont, but "the fifty years I spent in a stagnant pond" never came up.

I don't think the absence of such reminisces is necessarily evidence of lack of sapience before joining. There could be MANY reasons why this is the case...we know that even as recently as the incident with Ambassador Odan, even talking about the symbiotic nature of the Trill was taboo. Perhaps the symbionts themselves remain reluctant to talk about their own experiences, for fear of alienating other humanoid species. Who knows what joined Trill talk about when there are no other species in the room? Maybe they DO share things that include the symbionts' pre-joining (or between-joining) memories.

The other thing that we never saw, that I think would've been telling as to the nature of the symbionts, would have been a symbiont joining to its first host. The effect that had on the humanoid, I think, would show us quite a bit about just what the symbiont contributes.

Personally, I wasn't sure I liked the way Treklit went about it, but I do commend them, at least, for daring to explore the whole other side of the joined Trills.

 

[Arix]

One of the opportunities we really missed in DS9, I think, was to find out more about the symbiont's end of things, when it comes to the Trill.

What do you guys think about the symbionts? We know they communicated with each other, in their native pools...I wonder if that was indeed some sort of language, and if so, what kinds of opinions and debates might exist in their culture?

I agree that it was definitely a missed opportunity.

I think, as you said, it could have been explored through a first joining - then we'd get to learn about the symbiont itself, and see its effect on the host, without past host's memories 'getting in the way' (so to speak).

I think another missed opportunity to explore the Trill in more depth was the use of Ezri - don't get me wrong, I loved her character and thought she was fantastic - but I think it would have been interesting to see her unjoined, for a few episodes at least (say if she'd been a recurring character during Season 6). I think that could really have demonstrated the difference joining can make in a host's personality, rather than explaining it after the fact.

Similarly, I would have liked it if they'd explored Jadzia's character without Dax - we never got to see her family or any of her friends from before she was joined.

Its a shame really, as Dax has always been one of my favourite characters. I loved all the episodes which explored Trill culture, if only they'd made more!

 

[sbk1234]

I was always curious if the Symbiant had any say into who it was joined with. Since I don't read the books, I don't know if this was handled.

Personally, I always thought of joining as a very sad experience, since it seemed to me that the humanoid's own personality would be so supressed. At least, that's how I always saw it.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

The Symbiont has never seemed to impart any personality of it's own, and seems to me more like a 'box' for memories that allows the hosts to draw on the experience of previous hosts. It doesn't seem to me that the host was suppressed at all.

 

[Bacl]

The Symbiont has never seemed to impart any personality of it's own, and seems to me more like a 'box' for memories that allows the hosts to draw on the experience of previous hosts. It doesn't seem to me that the host was suppressed at all.

Actually, Dax's first host, the first female senator of Trill, said that joining with Dax changed her in many ways. She found a focus and calm she didn't have before, she began holding her hands behind her back, and she became a lot better at debate as well as handling her more sexist and hot-headed colleagues.

I always took it to imply that the "hands behind the back" thing was pure Dax, as was the calm, almost brilliant logic and intelligence.

 

[Myasishchev]

I never really thought of them as sapient. I mean, we hear all about (I mean, really) the previous humanoid lives of the Dax symbiont, but "the fifty years I spent in a stagnant pond" never came up.

All right, I am confused here, how could they not be sentient? The whole point of the Trill symbiosis is the neural and mental link between the host and the symbiont. How could that work if the symbiont had a mind no more developed than, say a dog or a lizard? How would a non-sapient mind process the experiences and knowledge of a sapient species?

The slugs could still have an ability to store memories (apparently a lot of memories, more than a human likely could) without the consciousness and intelligence of a human. There's actually not much reason for the slugs to develop consciousness--what advantage intelligence for animals that don't use tools and parasitize on the internal organs other species, totally and irrevocably isolated from others of their own kind?

Although there is good reason for them to store memories--especially if the Trill bred them to do it.

But I could be wrong, of course.

Personally, I wasn't sure I liked the way Treklit went about it, but I do commend them, at least, for daring to explore the whole other side of the joined Trills.

That was with the parasites from "Conspiracy" and the Trill slugs being the same species (except the Conspiracy bugs were Khan-ized--with that evil genetic engineering), right?

Actually, Dax's first host, the first female senator of Trill, said that joining with Dax changed her in many ways. She found a focus and calm she didn't have before, she began holding her hands behind her back, and she became a lot better at debate as well as handling her more sexist and hot-headed colleagues.

I always took it to imply that the "hands behind the back" thing was pure Dax, as was the calm, almost brilliant logic and intelligence.

Why would humanoid body language be pure slug? Maybe if it saw the big mammal's manipulators and asked "What the hell am I supposed to do with these?" A calming effect would also be a really good adaptation for an invasive parasite the size of my forearm.

Anyway, all that said, there is one great reason I can think of to have the slugs be sapient--a scene where a Trill gets his head blown off and the body keeps going like a Deadite, till it runs out of oxygen and/or blood. That would be awesome.

 

[DevilEyes]

I never really thought of them as sapient. I mean, we hear all about (I mean, really) the previous humanoid lives of the Dax symbiont, but "the fifty years I spent in a stagnant pond" never came up.

All right, I am confused here, how could they not be sentient? The whole point of the Trill symbiosis is the neural and mental link between the host and the symbiont. How could that work if the symbiont had a mind no more developed than, say a dog or a lizard? How would a non-sapient mind process the experiences and knowledge of a sapient species?

The slugs could still have an ability to store memories (apparently a lot of memories, more than a human likely could) without the consciousness and intelligence of a human. There's actually not much reason for the slugs to develop consciousness--what advantage intelligence for animals that don't use tools and parasitize on the internal organs other species, totally and irrevocably isolated from others of their own kind?

Although there is good reason for them to store memories--especially if the Trill bred them to do it.

But I could be wrong, of course.

They don't just store memories, they store the personality traits, personal tastes (like Curzon's love of gambling etc.), sentiments (like the friendship with Sisko), experience, knowledge, skills (including motor skills). I don't really see how one can do it if their mind is not developed enough to understand all this. If you just gave me some memories from a humanoid who previously had the same slug and who is now dead, how could I keep any of those? Why would I feel like I had actually been that person and experienced all this? The slug is not some passive computer that stores data. It seems to me that the slug has to understand all those things that all those things that it is doing and thinking, and participate in them, if it can carry all that to the next host.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The slugs could still have an ability to store memories (apparently a lot of memories, more than a human likely could) without the consciousness and intelligence of a human. There's actually not much reason for the slugs to develop consciousness--what advantage intelligence for animals that don't use tools and parasitize on the internal organs other species, totally and irrevocably isolated from others of their own kind?

Actually, the symbionts DO have a form of communication in their native pools...they are able to share electric signals with each other and the Guardians explicitly state that they are communicating with each other.

I suspect intelligence started as an adaptation to evade some sort of predator.

Personally, I wasn't sure I liked the way Treklit went about it, but I do commend them, at least, for daring to explore the whole other side of the joined Trills.

That was with the parasites from "Conspiracy" and the Trill slugs being the same species (except the Conspiracy bugs were Khan-ized--with that evil genetic engineering), right?

Anyway, all that said, there is one great reason I can think of to have the slugs be sapient--a scene where a Trill gets his head blown off and the body keeps going like a Deadite, till it runs out of oxygen and/or blood. That would be awesome.

Funny you mention that. Just read DS9 novel #5, Fallen Heroes, by Daffyd Ab Hugh and you'll get your wish...

 

[Myasishchev]

^Aw, hell, I thought I came up with it.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, look at it this way...you know what they say about great minds?

 

[SoM]

ARJIN
(smiles)
There are so many possibilities when you're Joined. I'm not sure what I'd do yet... I figure I'd get a lot of guidance from the symbiont... wouldn't you say?

Dax studies him, vaguely disturbed... she nods thoughtfully...

DAX
The symbiont's influence is very strong, Arjin... but you're the host... you've got to be strong enough to balance that influence with your own instincts.

If you can't, the symbiont will overwhelm your personality.

That sounds like a pretty explicit statement that (a) the symbionts have their own personalities and (b) those personalities can fully "take over" if the host is unsure or weak-minded.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Personally, I always thought that within a joined Trill, the thoughts and personalities of the symbiont and host are so finely attuned to one another that the distinction (where one ends and the other begins) becomes impossible to tell. The only time that wouldn't be the case is if something was wrong with the joining or the symbiont and host weren't all that compatible to begin with (one being stronger than the other), IMO.

 

[Myasishchev]

ARJIN
(smiles)
There are so many possibilities when you're Joined. I'm not sure what I'd do yet... I figure I'd get a lot of guidance from the symbiont... wouldn't you say?

Dax studies him, vaguely disturbed... she nods thoughtfully...

DAX
The symbiont's influence is very strong, Arjin... but you're the host... you've got to be strong enough to balance that influence with your own instincts.

If you can't, the symbiont will overwhelm your personality.

That sounds like a pretty explicit statement that (a) the symbionts have their own personalities and (b) those personalities can fully "take over" if the host is unsure or weak-minded.

Maybe it just tries to turn you into a fat zombie upon which it can most richly feed.

 

[DevilEyes]

ARJIN
(smiles)
There are so many possibilities when you're Joined. I'm not sure what I'd do yet... I figure I'd get a lot of guidance from the symbiont... wouldn't you say?

Dax studies him, vaguely disturbed... she nods thoughtfully...

DAX
The symbiont's influence is very strong, Arjin... but you're the host... you've got to be strong enough to balance that influence with your own instincts.

If you can't, the symbiont will overwhelm your personality.

That sounds like a pretty explicit statement that (a) the symbionts have their own personalities and (b) those personalities can fully "take over" if the host is unsure or weak-minded.

Maybe it just tries to turn you into a fat zombie upon which it can most richly feed.

Why would it want that? From what I gather, it apparently "feeds" off the signals that the hosts' neural system receives from outside and inside stimuli. If the host were a zombie, wouldn't that only hinder the symbiosis? It seems reasonable to me that the symbiont would want an intelligent host with perfect senses. And probably a fit one who gets involved in more physical action (take the word 'action' in any meaning you want). Unless the symbiont itself is lazy and doesn't want much action or sensation. But in that case, it would have been better for this lazy symbiont to remain unjoined and go on living in the pond.

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, like I said, I'm just making the argument and could be wrong.

"Feeds" is in quotes because it doesn't really derive sustenance from nerve activity, right?