Sybok..20 years later
- Thread starter RobertScorpio
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Spock was becoming so popular in TOS during the end of Season One and throughout Season Two, that writers were all pitching Spock's brother/sister/cousin stories - and DC Fontana argued that to bring in a Spock sibling, etc, would be diluting his uniqueness, so she wrote a number of memos stating that Spock was an only child. Wise move at the time, I reckon.
Interestingly, she was finishing off the manuscript of the novel, "Vulcan's Glory", when Shatner announced his news about Sybok to the world, so DC slipped into her novel a line for Amanda that Spock was "the only son of Sarek". Not just an "only child". DC was entitled to do the line because the script for ST V had not yet been finalized, and Sybok was not, therefore canonical. Yet.
Cheeky DC. (I once asked her at a convention if the line in the novel was on purpose and she smiled and winked.)
For me, I think ST V would have been even stronger if Sybok had been Spock's (unrelated by blood) teacher/sponsor into the Academy, comparing their relationship to Spock/Saavik. Sybok could have been the man who coerced Spock into signing with Starfleet Academy, not the Vulcan Science Academy as Sarek wanted. ie. Sybok was the one responsible for Spock & Sarek's long silence.
If anything the core issue should have been that hybrids Vulcan-Humans should have been frowned on which might have been part of the thinking back in ToS regarding Spock and siblings that Amanda and Sarek shouldn't have more then one child that makes some sense since I highly doubt they imagined Sarek would ever be with anyone else but Amanda back in those days. but half-siblings or even cousins or uncles or whatever in no way diminish Spock's uniqueness.
I'd agree with her concerning the proliferation of hybrids in Star Trek generally as taking away from Spock.
Well this could still be the case for all we know... that is I always had the impression Sybok helped Spock choose his own path...
Sharr
I'd agree with her concerning the proliferation of hybrids in Star Trek generally as taking away from Spock.
Well this could still be the case for all we know... that is I always had the impression Sybok helped Spock choose his own path...
Sharr
Sybok's absence in Vulcan's Forge is glaring. When I raised the issue with editor John Ordover -- shouldn't Sybok have been there, based on Star Trek V -- he explained they didn't use Sybok because his canonical status was questionable.
The cover copy for Mind Meld suggests that Teska is Sybok's daughter, but the reality in the book is that Teska is a distant cousin of Spock's.
The only appearance of Sybok outside of Star Trek V that I can think of comes in DC's Star Trek Annual #6 in an alternate TNG timeline.
This sort of thing really bugs me. Sybok--and I assume STV--has "questionable" canon status because Roddenberry didn't like it. Its a shame, because novelists could have added some depth to Sybok that some felt was missing from the movie. Personally, I would have enjoyed seeing him woven into the novel continuity, such as it is.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
I agree..I think SYBOK warrented more. He was no doubt one of the most interesting Vulcans of all time. And no one has bothered to include him in anything. Travesy!!
I think it would be easier now to flesh out Sybok's background than it would have been even ten years ago in the novels, because the novels have expanded the 23rd century in some new directions with things like Vanguard. The problem with telling a pre-Star Trek V Sybok story is that, unless it's a story set during Spock's youth back on Vulcan (like Vulcan's Forge), Spock had never spoken of Sybok with his crewmates and they didn't know who Sybok was, so a Five Year Mission novel with Sybok would be a continuity non-starter. But might Sybok have gone to Starbase 47 and met T'Prynn? It's possible.
Totally agree! Now that time has marched on, there are some interesting places to put the character. (I'd quite forgotten the "Mind Meld" back cover copy, obviously written from the original proposal, not the finished manuscript.)
The funny thing about a smiling Vulcan like Sybok is that "Enterprise: The First Adventure" had already postulated a smiling blond Vulcan cousin-of-Spock years before: "Stephen", who'd run away from home to join a circus and even experiment with emotions - and Gene Roddenberry seemed to let that one slide. (And supposedly GR read E:TFA 'cos he wrote an accolade for it).
I think Shatner was being a bit stubborn about Sybok. Roddenberry and Fontana might have had some good ideas on developing a strong anti-Spock character, but no one had to listen to them.
And there's also the emotional Vulcan group in an episode of Enterprise. Didn't follow the series too closely, so couldn't tell you which episode(s).
Anyways, this aspect of Vulcan society has always made sen to me since vulcans aren't devoid of emotionas, they just try to suppress them. Some with greater success than others, apparantly.
In retrospect now, I think Christopher Lee would have made an amazing Sybok.
Yes, but Sybok was a precedent for that. I'm saying that the novels were there even earlier than Sybok.
And I thought Luckinbill was prefect.
What rubbed me up the wrong way was that Shatner presented his film ideas to Gene Roddenberry, assuming he'd love a script that included a Roddenberryesque search for God and even a brother for Spock - and then Shatner absolutely refused to budge when GR and DC Fontana made their objections. Because he didn't have to.
As you say, Ian, Shatner wasn't under any obligation to take Roddenberry's advice. (And I've never understood how Fontana got pulled into Star Trek V; was it that Roddenberry went to her wanting a concurring opinion? Except that's unlikely given the frosty relations between Fontana and Roddenberry over TNG's first season. Shatner and Bennett certainly didn't have to show Fontana the script.) So I don't understand why you'd imply that Shatner not utilizing their opinions is somehow wrong and off-putting.
Admittedly, Shanter's Star Trek Movie Memories is not a disinterested account of the making of Star Trek V. Shatner's recollection there is the Roddenberry's suggestion was to scrap the script and do time travel story with JFK, as he had done on the previous films. If that was Roddenberry's script suggestions, I don't blame Shanter at all for dismissing Roddenberry's ideas.
I also wonder if Roddenberry wasn't more vehement in his objections to Star Trek V and Star Trek VI because of Star Trek: The Next Generation. He had his hands directly in a piece of the Star Trek pie again, and here was this other piece of the piece that he had no control over whatsoever. If Roddenberry wanted to make a power-play -- and there's no reason to think he wouldn't -- it would make sense for him to denigrate the other pie and build up his own.
I am always amused by those who decry the existence of Sybok but think Vulcans would play baseball.
Well, that Vulcan was an exception... 
Please.
Sybok-as-brother was forced late upon the film by Paramount, as an explanation for why Spock would not zap him.
I have nothing wrong with the character, but I object to the familial relationship. And that his mother was a "Vulcan princess"?
Such late-revealed associations (and the revelation of planetary royalty) don't count as much with lesser characters, and it would not have mattered at all if we as an audience had gotten some earlier hints. But it came out of nowhere -- and had no value even as a shocking plot point, as in the introduction of Sarek, Amanda and T'Pring. It was obviously tacked on. And that is my main objection. That it was gratuitous.
Let it make sense that Spock all along had a brother, and I would have no problem. By contrast, David as Kirk's son makes all sorts of sense.
Sybok-as-brother was forced late upon the film by Paramount, as an explanation for why Spock would not zap him.
I have nothing wrong with the character, but I object to the familial relationship. And that his mother was a "Vulcan princess"?
Such late-revealed associations (and the revelation of planetary royalty) don't count as much with lesser characters, and it would not have mattered at all if we as an audience had gotten some earlier hints. But it came out of nowhere -- and had no value even as a shocking plot point, as in the introduction of Sarek, Amanda and T'Pring. It was obviously tacked on. And that is my main objection. That it was gratuitous.
Let it make sense that Spock all along had a brother, and I would have no problem. By contrast, David as Kirk's son makes all sorts of sense.
As an avid collector of official gossip at the time, and our club getting regular feedback from Susan Sackett, it was certainly my impression that Shatner thought he had the perfect movie to make Roddenberry proud, especially with him knowing that GR had reservations over ST II, III and IV at various times. Shatner was a bit surprised that GR objected to a search for God, since so many TOS episodes focused on Eden, gods and god-like beings, and GR's own "The God-Thing" had hit a stalemate. Furthermore, I think Shatner thought GR would like an evangelistic Vulcan who was related to Spock.
They didn't. IIRC, DC Fontana never saw the script. It was her public reactions during her promotions for "Vulcan's Glory", convention appearances, media interviews etc. She was asked by the media how she felt about Spock having a brother and she took a "That's news to me, 'cos I wrote the memos" take on it.
It was off-putting to me, that's all. So many things that made ST V a string of disasters were fairly easily fixable. "Captain's Log", by Shatner's daughter, is also quite telling re the blundering that was happening.
He was - on ST V. But he was powerless. By the time he read and commented on the script for ST VI, Roddenberry was very ill. He died a matter of hours after seeing the final cut of ST VI in Paramount's theaterette.
I think that Sybok was the "McCoy" influence in his childhood that dared him to experience his emotions that the logical Sarek "disapproved" of. But I think Sarek was just "overcompensating" because of his marrying a human. Spock saw the overly logical exterior of his father but never the more caring interior which was proved by Unification where it stated the 2 never mindmelded.
So you have Sarek as the logical side and Sybok as the emotional side. Amanda was the balance between the two extremes. She respected Vulcan and all its traditions but realized that it was a demanding one one someone of Spock's half-breed nature ("Yesteryear"). Spock's closest tie with his family was with Amanda because of this neutral nurturing stance. She saw Spock's humanity as an asset to his Vulcan side and that he needed to allow it to come through to help him in difficult times {"Journey to Babel"; "Voyage Home"). Kirk took a similar stance in the STTMP novel about telling Spock to be the best of both worlds. I believe his closest tie during the 5-year-mission was with Kirk because of this similar stance of his mother's. So you had logic-balance-emotion in both Sarek-Amanda-Sybok and in Spock-Kirk-McCoy. T'Lar and the Vulcans helped restore Spock's katra and his intellectual learnings...but not his emotional experiences. Amanda advocated embracing both his Vulcan and human sides when they resurface...but Spock still couldn't balance the emotional experiences he couldn't remember. They were just starting the simmer at the end of ST IV with his "I feel fine" message to his mother but I don't think he experienced them full force until Sybok tried to share Spock's pain with him with the reenactment of Spock's birth. Sybok was able to bring the healing touch that Spock needed to finally find himself.
So you have Sarek as the logical side and Sybok as the emotional side. Amanda was the balance between the two extremes. She respected Vulcan and all its traditions but realized that it was a demanding one one someone of Spock's half-breed nature ("Yesteryear"). Spock's closest tie with his family was with Amanda because of this neutral nurturing stance. She saw Spock's humanity as an asset to his Vulcan side and that he needed to allow it to come through to help him in difficult times {"Journey to Babel"; "Voyage Home"). Kirk took a similar stance in the STTMP novel about telling Spock to be the best of both worlds. I believe his closest tie during the 5-year-mission was with Kirk because of this similar stance of his mother's. So you had logic-balance-emotion in both Sarek-Amanda-Sybok and in Spock-Kirk-McCoy. T'Lar and the Vulcans helped restore Spock's katra and his intellectual learnings...but not his emotional experiences. Amanda advocated embracing both his Vulcan and human sides when they resurface...but Spock still couldn't balance the emotional experiences he couldn't remember. They were just starting the simmer at the end of ST IV with his "I feel fine" message to his mother but I don't think he experienced them full force until Sybok tried to share Spock's pain with him with the reenactment of Spock's birth. Sybok was able to bring the healing touch that Spock needed to finally find himself.
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