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Sussman Responds to Cogley!

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Posted by wolf359:
"General Trek Community"

You and Who? Stewey and a handful of other members??

:lol: Ok, whatever. :rolleyes:

You do realize there's Trek Fans all around the world. I guess you're speaking for everyone on this planet? :lol:

yep and that includes the 8 million americans who watched "broken Bow" and gradually stopped watching enterprise. face it. it's lost a lot more viewers than it currently has. so i'd agree that the "General Trek Community" has given up on enterprise

[/QUOTE]

People are turning off because you can't turn Sci-Fi into a soap opera - not to mention the fact TNG opened up the floodgates for dozens of other scifi series and even scifi channels....

ENT is perfectly fine, but unfortunatley no one cares anymore - the question is, how do you make them bother to tune in again, thats the 64 billion dollar question..

IMHO the answer is:

E.T landing and introducing themselves - Trek ratings for all past and present shows would go through the roof ;)
 
Posted by Cyrus:
It was chilling and it was a great episode. But I don't see how it made sense for the Borg, who have never used a spokesman before or since. Sorry, but Borg's actions don't always follow common sense.

Actually they have the Queen (and 7 of 9 during "Scorpion") but still your point doesn't mean anything. We didn't know anything of the Borg, so at the time having a spokesperson didn't seem so out of place. It was later on did we find out how unique it for the Borg to have a spokesperson and the assimilation of the Federation must have been a unique experience for the Borg.


Your reply doesn't seem to be related to my comment.The poor quality is just your opinion and I strongly disagree (as far as Regeneration). Also disagree about the plot holes.

To agree or disagree is not the point. The fact of the matter is that these plot holes do exist and Mike Sussman had to come on the board and "explain" them to us. His explanations no matter authorative doesn't mean anything becaue it's what's shown on the screen that counts and any future episode can contradict him.

Finally plot holes and loose ends not intended are a sign of poor quality. I don't care what series it's in. It's sign of laziness and lack of attention and yes many TOS, TNG, and DS9 had them too and it ruined more than one good episode.

As to credible explanation about Picard, it has been discussed in lots of threads in the last few days and quite a few people have come up with credible explanations (include a nice one by AlexR in the "Grade Regeneration" thread).

First of all why does a credible explanation need to be found. Shouldn't it be self-evident. Second these explanation are nonsense.

1. Section 31; When has B&B used anything from DS9. Sure they use the Defiant (which got trashed) in FC and made references to the Dominion War in Voy and the later movies but usually to explain why it wasn't ridiculous for Worf to be there or put other series in context. Why wasn't Section 31 mentioned in Voyager, or Nemesis. Finally what would be Section 31's movtivation. The US supossedly covered up UFO to stop public panic. Since Archer beat the Borg why would there be a threat of public panic.

2. It was forgotten. Based on ON SCREEN evidence also unlikely. In TOS they had historical records about the Khan, the Nomad probes, Flint, and the Romulan war. In TMP they had information about Voyager 6, even the activation code. In TNG they had information about all sort of exploration missions and colonization attempts. Why was Archer's mission report and the data from the Borg missing?

3. The Borg weren't perceived as a threat. The most meaningless explanation of all. Just because there not a threat doesn't mean you delete all information.
 
Posted by Noname Given:
Posted by KIRK1ADM:

I disagree. Star Trek, back in its hayday, before the infamous presence of Berman infected the series was overall rather successful. In fact one of the leaders in the Star Trek series Star Trek 4, did quite well, among some of the other movies.

Boy, you relly ARE a clueless idiot at times. If you ever bother to read the credits, you'd know that Rick Berman has been a part of the production staff on TNG since Season 2, and was a main producer from Season 3 onward. Kind of blows the above statement to bits as if this were the case, then by your logic the entire Star Trek franchise has 'sucked' from TNG season 2 onward.

If you're going to argue something you may want to get your facts straight before opening your mouth....OOOOPS I FORGOT ho I was talking to here.

You should follow your own advice. ST4 was made before TNG and Michael Piller is given credit for turning around TNG in the third season. Berman basically left DS9 to Ira Behr and Ron Moore. Anyway Berman responisble for the crappiness of ST now regardless of his "past" achievements.
 
Thank you Mr. S. I didn't need any clarification, Overall, I liked the episode. And understood what was going on Too Bad your insight will fall on deaf ears. the deaf ears of those who will continue to bash the show. I do not need to be spoonfed Trek, but its obvious alot of Folks need that type coddeling. Keep up the good work!
 
Posted by MikeSussman:
Where can I get a T-shirt with Stewey's avatar? :)

OK, I am now convinced that Mike Sussman has entirely too much of a sense of humor to be truly working in La La Land. Either that or he is indeed one of those rare individuals in the region of overblown egos.

Anyway, I'll add to the chorus of "Thank You's" for taking the time to address some of the concerns raised here. :)
 
Also using your own logic (which I also mentioned in a post above), there was no on screen evidence that they didn't clean up the wreckage.
"If it's not seen on screen it didn't happen"...


I've never seen Archer pee on screen either, but I'm pretty sure he takes a whiz every morning when he wakes up.
 
Posted by MikeSussman:
Where can I get a T-shirt with Stewey's avatar? :)

Actually, I have an entire range, socks, cardigans, shirts, bandannas and of course underpants.

In fact, to celebrate this episode, I even put one on a sick bag. :lol:
 
MikeSussman, I'm going to put my ass on the burner here ...

While I have not been impressed by the stories your name has been attached to, and I was especially unimpressed by "Regeneration" (I gave it a D- in a generous moment on the grading poll), and my appreciation of your commitment and concern for the quality and integrity of ENT-as-Star Trek has been severely diminished by quotes that appeared in Star Trek - The Magazine, wherein you defended writing shortened scripts by claiming that making the characters speak more slowly, thus somehow imparting "thoughtfulness" to their words (I don't see the characters in The West Wing as being thoughtless, when that show has probably three times the dialogue, at what must be three times the speed), I am impressed by your willingness and thoughtfulness to participate in the discussion of your efforts, and your efforts to clarify what are indeed glaring omissions in the story that finally made it onto the screen for public consumption.

I thought Samuel T. Cogley's review was both hilarious, and spot on. I'm glad you accept it in the spirit in which is was intended, and that you can maintain, as the author, a much broader perspective than so many of those who had nothing more to contribute than an hour of couch-warming, but who are somehow experts on every nuance and unrevealed intent of your screenplay. Personally, I didn't see anything in it that made it a story that needed to be told, either as a Borg story in the context of ENT, or simply an action-adventure on its own. The latter I attribute mostly to poor direction and wooden acting, but the issue I have with the Borg in this episode is not only that they were unnecessary in the context of Trek as a franchise, but that this particular Borg story did absolutely nothing to either contribute to the scope of the Borg themselves, nor did it accomplish what the original Borg stories were intended for: to make a statement about humanity and its place in the universe. When they first appeared, the Borg were like a force of nature, meant to humble humanity and make them reevaluate both their goals and their arrogant self-assuredness. Later, the Borg provided a skewed mirror upon humanity (even in their appearances in VOY), putting to question the things that made us human: individuality, emotions, dreams and goals.

"Regeneration," on the other hand, reduced the Borg potential to little more than a romp, a rollercoaster ride for Archer and his crew, and worse, it was yet another easy victory that seemed intended to refute the claims that Archer and Co. are ineffective and weak. Their victory in this episode didn't so much develop them as characters as it merely turned to break the fourth wall and say directly to the audience, "See? These guys are heroes," without really allowing them to be heroes.

The Borg were, IMHO, window-dressing, nothing more. I can't honestly understand what about this story made it a "must-film." There surely must be so many other stories that can be told, stories that don't depend upon ratings stunts, or name-dropping, truly "must-film" stories that will so intensely affect and develop these characters and this time so that ENT becomes a real Star Trek series, and not just skewed reference material to all of the other series.

MikeSussman, both you and DavidAGoodman have demonstrated that the audience, not just the rabid fans, have your attention to a certain extent, and you both have shown evidence that you're as much fans of the concept as many of us. I hope that we can see ENT become the sort of series that anyone, fan and non-fan alike, can point to as an example of good drama, not just good Star Trek, and that it doesn't, in the end, become known merely for its unwillingness to stand on its own, to never have been more than a mirror of real greatness and ground-breaking drama and adventure. I still give all the ENT writers some benefit of the doubt, insofar as the publicized level of rewriting and homogenization at the hands of the executive producers has made it seem that they either have little appreciation for the efforts of the writers or little room to allow ideas beyond a narrowly-defined "marketing-biased" approach to the stories. The initial ideas, however, have to come from somewhere; it would be great if the majority of those initial ideas didn't start with, "You know what would be really 'kewl'? If we could bring in [insert registered trademark here] from TNG/VOY and have Archer and Co. drop a couple lines that will point to the things coming down the line ..."

Thanks for taking the time to join in on the discussion, and to exhibit a great deal of both understanding and humor. We bitch ... because we care ;).
 
People are turning off because you can't turn Sci-Fi into a soap opera - not to mention the fact TNG opened up the floodgates for dozens of other scifi series and even scifi channels....

ENT is perfectly fine, but unfortunatley no one cares anymore - the question is, how do you make them bother to tune in again, thats the 64 billion dollar question..

IMHO the answer is:

E.T landing and introducing themselves - Trek ratings for all past and present shows would go through the roof ;)

all good points, but if you look at the ratings as a graph then you have a sudden drop after "broken bow" (to be expected, people will watch to see if they like it or not) but then instead of a straight line or an upward graph of a successful show you have a steady downward trend. this means that more and more people are turning off every week. sure you'll have peaks amongst this for hyped episodes. but the trend is steadily downwards. so i can't see how you think ENT is "perfectly fine"

if a companies stock followed that line then they'd be looking for a new CEO

as for ET landing then yep that would spark interest all right, but then we'd have them saying that andorians don't have antennae and are red not blue :)
 
Posted by Stewey:


All this episode seems to have done, is blown wide open some of the very small plot-holes that First Contact left behind, and has done more damage than ever before (that is if you accept this show as Canon, which it aint). Species

Dude, you can say "it ain't canon" all you want, until the Borg do come, as a matter of fact, but the truth is if it appears on a movie screen or a television screen, it is canon. Paramount has the only say with what is canon, not you, not me, not anyone on these boards (with the exception of Mike and company, and they can be overridden).

That seems pretty plain and easy to understand.
 
Posted by Farm Boy:
Posted by Samuel T. Cogley:
Posted by JohnM:
He made a thread to address the issues concerning Regeneration. Ok, yes, He said "Sussman responds to Cogley" but dude, he was really responding to all the fans of the show who expressed their opinions in many other threads. Not just to you personally.

Your comments were the same as many other members. He addressed everyone's questions about Regeneration by choosing your review to use.

Never mind, JohnM.
Rather than waste any more time on this, I'm going to just cut you loose and let you continue to do whatever it is that you do.
You're a wise man Samuel. I don't think facts are going to make any difference here. :lol:

You make a good point there.
 
Posted by Yminale:
Posted by Noname Given:
Posted by KIRK1ADM:

I disagree. Star Trek, back in its hayday, before the infamous presence of Berman infected the series was overall rather successful. In fact one of the leaders in the Star Trek series Star Trek 4, did quite well, among some of the other movies.

Boy, you relly ARE a clueless idiot at times. If you ever bother to read the credits, you'd know that Rick Berman has been a part of the production staff on TNG since Season 2, and was a main producer from Season 3 onward. Kind of blows the above statement to bits as if this were the case, then by your logic the entire Star Trek franchise has 'sucked' from TNG season 2 onward.

If you're going to argue something you may want to get your facts straight before opening your mouth....OOOOPS I FORGOT ho I was talking to here.

You should follow your own advice. ST4 was made before TNG and Michael Piller is given credit for turning around TNG in the third season. Berman basically left DS9 to Ira Behr and Ron Moore. Anyway Berman responisble for the crappiness of ST now regardless of his "past" achievements.

He can't do that. He's too busy calling me names.
 
Posted by Mallory:
Posted by MikeSussman:
Where can I get a T-shirt with Stewey's avatar? :)

OK, I am now convinced that Mike Sussman has entirely too much of a sense of humor to be truly working in La La Land. Either that or he is indeed one of those rare individuals in the region of overblown egos.

Anyway, I'll add to the chorus of "Thank You's" for taking the time to address some of the concerns raised here. :)

As I read through this thread, I find Mike Sussman's self-depricating jokes to be VERY ANNOYING.

He's like one of those people that keep saying, "and I love you too...", after you just got through telling them how fucked up you think they are and how they need to change and start doing things better.
 
Posted by Joby:
As I read through this thread, I find Mike Sussman's self-depricating jokes to be VERY ANNOYING.

He's like one of those people that keep saying, "and I love you too...", after you just got through telling them how fucked up you think they are and how they need to change and start doing things better.

Well, think about what would go on if he didn't suffer our shit with a smile.
 
Posted by Ptrope:
MikeSussman, I'm going to put my ass on the burner here ...

While I have not been impressed by the stories your name has been attached to, and I was especially unimpressed by "Regeneration" (I gave it a D- in a generous moment on the grading poll), and my appreciation of your commitment and concern for the quality and integrity of ENT-as-Star Trek has been severely diminished by quotes that appeared in Star Trek - The Magazine, wherein you defended writing shortened scripts by claiming that making the characters speak more slowly, thus somehow imparting "thoughtfulness" to their words (I don't see the characters in The West Wing as being thoughtless, when that show has probably three times the dialogue, at what must be three times the speed), I am impressed by your willingness and thoughtfulness to participate in the discussion of your efforts, and your efforts to clarify what are indeed glaring omissions in the story that finally made it onto the screen for public consumption.

I thought Samuel T. Cogley's review was both hilarious, and spot on. I'm glad you accept it in the spirit in which is was intended, and that you can maintain, as the author, a much broader perspective than so many of those who had nothing more to contribute than an hour of couch-warming, but who are somehow experts on every nuance and unrevealed intent of your screenplay. Personally, I didn't see anything in it that made it a story that needed to be told, either as a Borg story in the context of ENT, or simply an action-adventure on its own. The latter I attribute mostly to poor direction and wooden acting, but the issue I have with the Borg in this episode is not only that they were unnecessary in the context of Trek as a franchise, but that this particular Borg story did absolutely nothing to either contribute to the scope of the Borg themselves, nor did it accomplish what the original Borg stories were intended for: to make a statement about humanity and its place in the universe. When they first appeared, the Borg were like a force of nature, meant to humble humanity and make them reevaluate both their goals and their arrogant self-assuredness. Later, the Borg provided a skewed mirror upon humanity (even in their appearances in VOY), putting to question the things that made us human: individuality, emotions, dreams and goals.

"Regeneration," on the other hand, reduced the Borg potential to little more than a romp, a rollercoaster ride for Archer and his crew, and worse, it was yet another easy victory that seemed intended to refute the claims that Archer and Co. are ineffective and weak. Their victory in this episode didn't so much develop them as characters as it merely turned to break the fourth wall and say directly to the audience, "See? These guys are heroes," without really allowing them to be heroes.

The Borg were, IMHO, window-dressing, nothing more. I can't honestly understand what about this story made it a "must-film." There surely must be so many other stories that can be told, stories that don't depend upon ratings stunts, or name-dropping, truly "must-film" stories that will so intensely affect and develop these characters and this time so that ENT becomes a real Star Trek series, and not just skewed reference material to all of the other series.

MikeSussman, both you and DavidAGoodman have demonstrated that the audience, not just the rabid fans, have your attention to a certain extent, and you both have shown evidence that you're as much fans of the concept as many of us. I hope that we can see ENT become the sort of series that anyone, fan and non-fan alike, can point to as an example of good drama, not just good Star Trek, and that it doesn't, in the end, become known merely for its unwillingness to stand on its own, to never have been more than a mirror of real greatness and ground-breaking drama and adventure. I still give all the ENT writers some benefit of the doubt, insofar as the publicized level of rewriting and homogenization at the hands of the executive producers has made it seem that they either have little appreciation for the efforts of the writers or little room to allow ideas beyond a narrowly-defined "marketing-biased" approach to the stories. The initial ideas, however, have to come from somewhere; it would be great if the majority of those initial ideas didn't start with, "You know what would be really 'kewl'? If we could bring in [insert registered trademark here] from TNG/VOY and have Archer and Co. drop a couple lines that will point to the things coming down the line ..."

Thanks for taking the time to join in on the discussion, and to exhibit a great deal of both understanding and humor. We bitch ... because we care ;).
Once again you nail it. Thank you. :)
 
I am truly beginning to appreciate Mike's posts. He demonstrates that he has a good sense of humor, doesn't take things way to seriously, and especially is not taking many of the comments that have been personally.

I have great respect for any individual is able to do that especially in light of an incredibly contraversial subject as the Regeneration episode.

Mike thanks!! :)
 
Posted by KIRK1ADM:
I am truly beginning to appreciate Mike's posts. He demonstrates that he has a good sense of humor, doesn't take things way to seriously, and especially is not taking many of the comments that have been personally.

I have great respect for any individual is able to do that especially in light of an incredibly contraversial subject as the Regeneration episode.

Mike thanks!! :)

Here, here!!
 
Posted by emily_reich:
Posted by KIRK1ADM:
I am truly beginning to appreciate Mike's posts. He demonstrates that he has a good sense of humor, doesn't take things way to seriously, and especially is not taking many of the comments that have been personally.

I have great respect for any individual is able to do that especially in light of an incredibly contraversial subject as the Regeneration episode.

Mike thanks!! :)

Here, here!!

Wow something that we agree on? Is the Earth coming to an end or something? ;) :lol:
 
Posted by KIRK1ADM:
Posted by emily_reich:
Posted by KIRK1ADM:
I am truly beginning to appreciate Mike's posts. He demonstrates that he has a good sense of humor, doesn't take things way to seriously, and especially is not taking many of the comments that have been personally.

I have great respect for any individual is able to do that especially in light of an incredibly contraversial subject as the Regeneration episode.

Mike thanks!! :)

Here, here!!

Wow something that we agree on? Is the Earth coming to an end or something? ;) :lol:

maybe someone's pig has sprouted wings....
 
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