Susan Foreman question

[Lance]

I do take Christopher's point above on board, and must fully admit I hadn't really thought about it in those terms. Certainly I remember certain early drafts of what became the 1996 TV Movie stated outright that the Doctor got into the academy because of his aristocratic roots within the Gallifreyan heirarchy, particularly the Prydonian chapter. I don't think canonical Who ever goes quite as far as to say he's the heir to some Rassilon-given legacy, but it is a reasonable extrapolation.

If the Doctor has got aristocratic blood, enough so that gets him in with the toffs of the academy (albeit he doesn't share their superior view of the universe), then we must also assume Susan shares that lineage. If indeed she truly is his grand-daughter.

 

[Christopher]

Certainly I remember certain early drafts of what became the 1996 TV Movie stated outright that the Doctor got into the academy because of his aristocratic roots within the Gallifreyan heirarchy, particularly the Prydonian chapter. I don't think canonical Who ever goes quite as far as to say he's the heir to some Rassilon-given legacy, but it is a reasonable extrapolation.

As I said, "The Sun Makers" does say in as many words that Time Lords are the oligarchic rulers of Gallifrey -- meaning they're a small class that dominates over the rest of the population, i.e. an aristocracy. And "The Deadly Assassin" referenced Time Lords in contrast to "more plebeian classes":

http://www.chakoteya.net/DoctorWho/14-3.htm

ENGIN: Well, the biog data extracts of Time Lords are colour coded according to Chapter.
SPANDRELL: I didn't know that.
ENGIN: No? Well, your duties usually involve you with more plebeian classes, don't they, Castellan?

And plebeians are commoners as distinct from the elites, or the patricians in Roman terms. Therefore, we are told pretty overtly that Time Lords are the patrician class that rules over the commoners.

Besides, keep in mind that this is a British show. In England, it's pretty much taken for granted that there's a hierarchy of social classes. The very use of the term "Lord" conveys an implicit meaning of nobility and hereditary peerage to an English viewer that an American viewer might overlook. The Time Lord culture that Robert Holmes limned in "Assassin" is a biting satire of entrenched patrician elites, whether the English nobility or the Vatican or any other insular, stagnant institution. (Holmes also wrote "The Sunmakers" and thus was responsible for the "oligarchic rulers" line as well.)

 

[diankra]

As I said, "The Sun Makers" does say in as many words that Time Lords are the oligarchic rulers of Gallifrey -- meaning they're a small class that dominates over the rest of the population, i.e. an aristocracy. And "The Deadly Assassin" referenced Time Lords in contrast to "more plebeian classes":

But the Usurians' assessments of the Time Lords are not necessarily 100% accurate - aside from anything else, they might be filter through their own societal assumptions.
In any case, such classes aren't entirely hereditary: In the UK, Etonians are (pretty close to) an oligarchical class who think they're born to rule: but an Old Etonian who doesn't get into Oxbridge, or fails his degree, probably won't get into parliament or the cabinet despite his hereditary advantages. And a first generation millionaire can send his son to Eton to get him into the oligarchy.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

If the Doctor has got aristocratic blood, enough so that gets him in with the toffs of the academy (albeit he doesn't share their superior view of the universe), then we must also assume Susan shares that lineage. If indeed she truly is his grand-daughter.

I've never understood why there's some question within some corners of fandom over whether or not Susan is the Doctor's granddaughter. The theories of the New Adventures, while interesting, are also needlessly convoluted. The series doesn't give any good reason to doubt her stated relationship to the Doctor.

 

[Christopher]

But the Usurians' assessments of the Time Lords are not necessarily 100% accurate - aside from anything else, they might be filter through their own societal assumptions.

But as I said, that episode and "The Deadly Assassin" were both written by Robert Holmes. Holmes did more to define the Time Lords than any other writer: he named Gallifrey, he wrote the first story that visited that planet, he invented Rassilon and most of the specifics we have about Time Lord/Gallifreyan society. Since Holmes wrote the "oligarchic rulers" line and since it fits with his portrayal of the Time Lords as a stagnant, dissolute aristocracy, there's no reason to doubt that he intended it to be an accurate assessment.

In any case, such classes aren't entirely hereditary: In the UK, Etonians are (pretty close to) an oligarchical class who think they're born to rule: but an Old Etonian who doesn't get into Oxbridge, or fails his degree, probably won't get into parliament or the cabinet despite his hereditary advantages. And a first generation millionaire can send his son to Eton to get him into the oligarchy.

Still, the child of a lord/lady can be called lord/lady as a courtesy title, at least. I suppose it could be reasonable to conclude that Susan had left Gallifrey before finishing her schooling and thus hadn't formally earned the status of Time Lady, but that doesn't mean she was a commoner (or "plebeian") either.

The problem, of course, is that the title "Time Lord" wasn't coined until several years after Susan left. The only time we saw her after its coinage was in "The Five Doctors." So the fact that she was never called a Time Lady is no reason to conclude she wasn't one, since Hartnell's Doctor was never called a Time Lord either.

 

[diankra]

Yep... I just tend to the view that Susan is a potential Time Lord: she has an automatic place at one of the academies due to her heritage, but she isn't a Time Lord until she's graduated.
Being the heir of a Time Lord is a massive advantage in getting into an academy, and the academies may well be reluctant to fail someone who's well connected (look at the conspiracy theories about how Prince Harry got his A-Levels), but it's still a two stage process - ancestry gets you the place on the course, but you still have to pass it to actually be a Time Lord.

 

[Lance]

If the Doctor has got aristocratic blood, enough so that gets him in with the toffs of the academy (albeit he doesn't share their superior view of the universe), then we must also assume Susan shares that lineage. If indeed she truly is his grand-daughter.

I've never understood why there's some question within some corners of fandom over whether or not Susan is the Doctor's granddaughter. The theories of the New Adventures, while interesting, are also needlessly convoluted. The series doesn't give any good reason to doubt her stated relationship to the Doctor.

I've never fully understood it either. I do recognize that she was clearly conceived as a character at a time when the Doctor was simply an alien with a mysterious past. Personally, I don't see any real disconnect between her on-screen character and what was later established. Heck, the entire first episode is devoted to telling us how alien she is! But somebody along the way evidently started questioning the purpose of her existence as the continuity began to pile up after time. Somewhere along the way somebody questioned how she'd fit into Time Lord society, and they reached conclusions about her that I find frankly baffling...

I see no reason why she shouldn't just be his grand-daughter. It gives Susan a unique place among all the companions, being as she was the only one who was actually related to him. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

 

[Christopher]

I do recognize that she was clearly conceived as a character at a time when the Doctor was simply an alien with a mysterious past.

Or rather, a space-time traveller with a mysterious past. As I mentioned above, the Doctor wasn't explicitly established as alien until the Troughton era, and the First Doctor sometimes referred to himself as human. He and Susan were from another world, but I think the original idea was that it was a world colonized by humans in the future. There was an explicit reference to them coming from the forty-somethingth century, I think, in the original pilot script, but it didn't survive to the aired version.

 

[Australis]

At the time of that story, I put up a photo of the Woman In White, and Susan with the First Doctor, the resemblance was quite striking.

 

[Iamnotspock]

There was an explicit reference to them coming from the forty-somethingth century, I think, in the original pilot script, but it didn't survive to the aired version.

49th, yeah. It's in the original pilot version.

 

[Gotham Central]

If the Doctor has got aristocratic blood, enough so that gets him in with the toffs of the academy (albeit he doesn't share their superior view of the universe), then we must also assume Susan shares that lineage. If indeed she truly is his grand-daughter.

I've never understood why there's some question within some corners of fandom over whether or not Susan is the Doctor's granddaughter. The theories of the New Adventures, while interesting, are also needlessly convoluted. The series doesn't give any good reason to doubt her stated relationship to the Doctor.

I've never fully understood it either. I do recognize that she was clearly conceived as a character at a time when the Doctor was simply an alien with a mysterious past. Personally, I don't see any real disconnect between her on-screen character and what was later established. Heck, the entire first episode is devoted to telling us how alien she is! But somebody along the way evidently started questioning the purpose of her existence as the continuity began to pile up after time. Somewhere along the way somebody questioned how she'd fit into Time Lord society, and they reached conclusions about her that I find frankly baffling...

I see no reason why she shouldn't just be his grand-daughter. It gives Susan a unique place among all the companions, being as she was the only one who was actually related to him. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

I think that for me, the issue was that the Doctor did not seem to have any problem with the idea of leaving her behind on 22nd Century Earth, presubeably to live out her life with an ordinary human. That does not mesh well with what is established about the residents of Gallifrey in later series. That's why it seemed reasonable that she might not really be his granddaughter.

 

[Guy Gardener]

First it's possible that Susan was a lot older than she looked, either from slow ageing or a ridiculously inconvenient regeneration. Second they would have pushed her face into the untempered schism at the age of 8, and Susan seemed far more developed than most of your average 8 year olds (A 25 year old actress playing a 15 year old character... Carole wasn't THAT developed at all.). Third with all they have to learn... Every language in the universe as well as every technology, and history from one side of time to the other means that most of their education would have been disseminated from that 3, 2, 1 Contact (Headbut!) touch telepathy... A timelord can probably learn in 3 minutes what a human being would take 13 lifetimes to suck up from books, but headbut telepathy retention is not complete and varies from case to case which is why the Doctor "failed" his exams and Romana got close to a perfect score, as well as specialization, which is why the Rani kidnapped him when she needed an Engineer.

 

[Christopher]

I think that for me, the issue was that the Doctor did not seem to have any problem with the idea of leaving her behind on 22nd Century Earth, presubeably to live out her life with an ordinary human. That does not mesh well with what is established about the residents of Gallifrey in later series. That's why it seemed reasonable that she might not really be his granddaughter.

On the other hand, Leela, who was human, left the Fourth Doctor to marry a Gallifreyan named Andred. Maybe a young Gallifreyan in his or her first lifetime is still similar enough in experience and mentality to a human that a romance is more feasible.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You know that the Doctor is Rambo?

A disgruntled drifter shellshocked from the war incompatible with the rest of the world.

He's abnormal.

The rest of Time Lord society would be very different from the Doctor's example.

 

[Redfern]

Over the years some fans have built up this "image" of the Doctor as being "beyond" the "baser" drives of humanity. In effect, they have tried to make him into a "saint" like figure. And in Western culture, deified figures just don't do the "nasty". (I know there many examples to counter this assumption, but I'm just pointing out a "perception" many people have.) So the thought that the doctor would "lower" himself to father children just "bothers" some fans to the point they refute the notion Susan is his biological granddaughter.

I'm not saying that all fans who debate Susan's relation to the Doctor think this way, just some. I know because I'm either physically met them or read their postings on the matter.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[DWF]

I think that for me, the issue was that the Doctor did not seem to have any problem with the idea of leaving her behind on 22nd Century Earth, presubeably to live out her life with an ordinary human. That does not mesh well with what is established about the residents of Gallifrey in later series. That's why it seemed reasonable that she might not really be his granddaughter.

On the other hand, Leela, who was human, left the Fourth Doctor to marry a Gallifreyan named Andred. Maybe a young Gallifreyan in his or her first lifetime is still similar enough in experience and mentality to a human that a romance is more feasible.

We have no proof that all Galifreyans are Time Lords and can regenerate. We don't even know if Susan can regenerate.