Indeed. Keevan, for example, had no loyalty at all, at least none that we could see. He was quite willing to throw away the lives of his men just on a whim. And probably did not particuarly care for the Founders either.
Suppose the Dominion became benevolent, what would happen to the Jem'Hadar and Vorta?
- Thread starter at Quark's
- Start date
Indeed. Keevan, for example, had no loyalty at all, at least none that we could see. He was quite willing to throw away the lives of his men just on a whim. And probably did not particuarly care for the Founders either.
There are several forces in play on the Jem'Hadar...
1. Their genetically programmed awe of the Founders, and contempt for all other races.
2. Their culture, which is a rigid military hierarchy, that includes a general regard for their Vorta overseers, and a sense of honor not unlike the Klingons.
3. Their addiction to the ketrucel white drug, a last failsafe to control them.
In the case of "The Abandoned", #1 was so powerful, not even a Founder (Odo) could dissuade him. On the other hand, in "To the Death", a faction of rogues was very clearly out of control. And while Ometik'lan's faction was clearly not with them, he had no objection to vaporizing Weyoun 4 for questioning his men's loyalty. So it seems obvious that there were individual differences in various Jem'Hadar, just as there were with different Vorta clones.
What if the Vorta decide the Founders have all gone mad, or been corrupted by Odo, so they take a small army of Jem'Hadar and go underground. These Vorta then proceed to "help" the Founders in secret, doing all kinds of nefarious deeds in the name of supporting their gods, whether those gods want/need/ask for that help or not. Their mantra becomes, "It's for your own good, Founder, whether you know it or not."
That wouldn't be so far fetched, either. We've seen Weyoun act in that manner when he conspired with Damar to secretly assassinate the defective Weyoun clone along with Odo.
That wouldn't be so far fetched, either. We've seen Weyoun act in that manner when he conspired with Damar to secretly assassinate the defective Weyoun clone along with Odo.
I could see Weyoun 9 being quite good at that. And since clones are copies created from genetic material, there is no "last clone" as long as there's intact cells left.
I could see Odo talk the other Changlings into simply letting them all go free and live the lives they want. Maybe the Founders would still be worshiped as Gods but they would be like Earth Gods. No where to be seen. Maybe in some sky Heaven but for certain not someone who might walk into the room and have a conversation with you.
If I remember rightly he was the last clone because the cloning factory was destroyed.
The Litverse touched on this somewhat via the DS9 relaunch novels showing us what the mirror universe Dominion were like. The Mirror Founders had a strong sense of justice which caused the Dominion to be a fair and just society that treated it's citizens as equals. The Founders of the MU were encountered by Bashir and he they reminded him of Odo.
The Jem'Hadar and Vorta also existed and worked together more readily and protected the Dominion and it's citizens from outward threats such as the Ascendants instead serving as tools of oppression.
Wasn’t it even suggested that both versions of Odo were actually from each other’s universes?
Last edited:
I find that about chief O’Brien, “Smiley” seems more like a prime universe kind of guy.
On the other hand, I don't feel 'our' O'Brien belongs in the Mirror Universe...
(except perhaps to Make Him Suffer, MWUHAHAHAHA!!!!!)
Ahem. Sorry for that.
(except perhaps to Make Him Suffer, MWUHAHAHAHA!!!!!)
Ahem. Sorry for that.
I could see the Vorta making their own version of Risa.
Hate to be "that guy," but it comes down to what you mean by benevolent. Kindly and charitable leaves a lot of ambiguity. I think it's fair to say that the United States believes itself to be benevolent, but our history disagrees with that. Even the Federation has its dark side (what with every other Admiral being outright corrupt, Section 31, etc.).
If that's the case, I don't think the Jem'Hadar and Vorta would need to change that much. I can see them working to better the Gamma Quadrant, but still utilizing the Jem'Hadar when "bettering" means using force. Some situations, sadly, will not resolve themselves through good wishes and diplomacy. However, in the attempt, the Vorta would be sent in first to try to negotiate/seek a peaceful solution.
If you're talking "attempting to become part of the Federation," then both the Jem'Hadar and Vorta pose a significant issue both with the issues of slavery and the ban on genetic manipulation. So, the Founders wouldn't be able to further manipulate them to make them docile or even to give them autonomy. In that case, the Jem'Hadar would have to die out, as they had no way to procreate, and the Vorta, well, give them a planet of their own, I guess? Can they procreate? I don't know that the show gave us any answer to that. Furthermore, and argument could be made that the most benevolent and perhaps "humane" ("Even the very word is racist...") thing would be to euthanize the Jem'Hadar then to ween them off the white, unless the Founders had the solution Bashir desperately sought.
Then again, the most benevolent thing the Founders could do would be to release the many members, but as someone else pointed out, that could result in severe repercussions.
I guess I keep circling around the idea that a change to a benevolent Dominion would be a very messy affair. It would either have to be quick, with a lot of death and destruction or slowly weening the members away, but still maintaining control until they could survive on their own. That could take decades or even centuries.
Going back to my original point, maybe not the Founders, but I think it's clear the Vorta believed the Dominion was benevolent. They truly saw being a member of the Dominion as a net positive for the members, even if they did have to use an iron fist in a velvet glove to make that the case.
If that's the case, I don't think the Jem'Hadar and Vorta would need to change that much. I can see them working to better the Gamma Quadrant, but still utilizing the Jem'Hadar when "bettering" means using force. Some situations, sadly, will not resolve themselves through good wishes and diplomacy. However, in the attempt, the Vorta would be sent in first to try to negotiate/seek a peaceful solution.
If you're talking "attempting to become part of the Federation," then both the Jem'Hadar and Vorta pose a significant issue both with the issues of slavery and the ban on genetic manipulation. So, the Founders wouldn't be able to further manipulate them to make them docile or even to give them autonomy. In that case, the Jem'Hadar would have to die out, as they had no way to procreate, and the Vorta, well, give them a planet of their own, I guess? Can they procreate? I don't know that the show gave us any answer to that. Furthermore, and argument could be made that the most benevolent and perhaps "humane" ("Even the very word is racist...") thing would be to euthanize the Jem'Hadar then to ween them off the white, unless the Founders had the solution Bashir desperately sought.
Then again, the most benevolent thing the Founders could do would be to release the many members, but as someone else pointed out, that could result in severe repercussions.
I guess I keep circling around the idea that a change to a benevolent Dominion would be a very messy affair. It would either have to be quick, with a lot of death and destruction or slowly weening the members away, but still maintaining control until they could survive on their own. That could take decades or even centuries.
Going back to my original point, maybe not the Founders, but I think it's clear the Vorta believed the Dominion was benevolent. They truly saw being a member of the Dominion as a net positive for the members, even if they did have to use an iron fist in a velvet glove to make that the case.
Don't worry about being "that" guy. Certainly, any changes made by the Dominion would have to be carefully thought out and implemented over time. And indeed, the Jem'Hadar (being a genetically engineered slave race with violence and racism literally bred into them) would be an issue. And there is the question of how much change a single dissenter (Odo) could generate, especially early on.
Even if they became benevolent I don't think they'd fundamentally change the Vorta and Gem'Hadar. Benevolent doesn't mean naive, they'd just breed Gem'Hadar to save their aggression for identified threats so they can be used more defensively.
They'd approach new solids by showing the carrot and the stick. "Here are the Vorta, they will negotiate peace with you in good faith. And if you try to attack us, well, here are the Gem'Hadar. Good luck with that."
They'd approach new solids by showing the carrot and the stick. "Here are the Vorta, they will negotiate peace with you in good faith. And if you try to attack us, well, here are the Gem'Hadar. Good luck with that."
Even so, the Jem' Hadar currently seem to be bred with the desire to fight everyone (see that fast growing one in the Abandoned) except probably the Founders themselves (and the Vorta). I'm not sure you want an army around whose members continually have to suppress their own excessive aggression if you are not going to use it frequently because you expect to be at peace most of the time (unless perhaps your experience shows you that most other species indeed are hostile). So I still think they would need to turn that aggression a notch or two down.
And yeah, of course 'benevolent' is an extremely broad term - I did not wish to narrow that down for others, partly to see in what directions they would think.
Last edited:
