Supernatural5x22 "Swan Song" spoiler/discussion thread

[Dorian Thompson]

Awwwww, it melted my heart. The brothers' bond; it is the tie that binds and the savior of mankind. Yes, I'm a huge sap and proud of it.

I liked how Castiel's story ended with him becoming an angel again. He was probably the most developed character on the show after Dean and Sam.

No lie. Cas having his mojo back was most satisfying. Him becoming human would be a monstrous mistake creatively.

It makes me chuckle how much the fangirls over at TWOP are bitching about Dean getting together with Lisa when it ended.

God save me from those idiots. Giving an F to the finale. Can't have that interloper Lisa intruding on things. What an inappropriate ending for Dean. Dean was relegated to "sidekick" again and made less for Sam. The writers hate Dean. Blah, blah, blah. How do those nutters take any joy from this show? They're obsessed with Dean and screentime and Dean not getting his due......just obsessed. Being with Lisa lessened Dean. Yeah, right. They showed that he thought about her before, but apparently he should have been talking about her 24/7 just like a chick. They always want the brothers to act like chicks.....until they angst too much....then they're wimps, of course.

So.....was Chuck God?

 

[Checkmate]

So.....was Chuck God?

That was definitely the implication of his final scene. Which actually fits in really well with the whole Jesus angle; God was his own prophet. (At least that's what I've always gathered from the weird Catholic belief about them being one in the same.)

 

[mswood]

Another observation I forgot to mention last night was I wasn't sure how I felt about the way Adam was treated in the episode. They just firebombed the guy. No effort was made to save him. I can't imagine Dean would be that callous had that been the course of action in dealing with Sam. I guess you could argue that the only thing mattered at that point was saving Sam and there wasn't that connection even if Adam was Dean's brother but I think at the very least there should have been some kind of mention by Dean in the final act about it feeling more like a pyrrhic victory losing both of his brothers and being the last of the Winchesters. As it was poor Adam was forgotten--not that I much cared for him--but story-wise I think it could have been handled slightly better.

The way it was handled here felt like Adam was treated like a plot device by not only Kripke but Dean too. I wasn't crazy about that.

Actually they did address that issue. Michael confirms that Adam isn't in here any more. Unlike Lucifer one of the perks of being Michael is that he could offer Adam the chance to spend eternity with his mom (which I believe they also addressed a few episodes ago).

So at this stage Adam's was just a hallowed out shell for Michael.

 

[Checkmate]

Actually, I believe Michael said "he's not in right now," with the implication that he was completely subdued by Michael's will. Not that the body was an empty vessel.

 

[mswood]

Awwwww, it melted my heart. The brothers' bond; it is the tie that binds and the savior of mankind. Yes, I'm a huge sap and proud of it.

I liked how Castiel's story ended with him becoming an angel again. He was probably the most developed character on the show after Dean and Sam.

No lie. Cas having his mojo back was most satisfying. Him becoming human would be a monstrous mistake creatively.

It makes me chuckle how much the fangirls over at TWOP are bitching about Dean getting together with Lisa when it ended.

God save me from those idiots. Giving an F to the finale. Can't have that interloper Lisa intruding on things. What an inappropriate ending for Dean. Dean was relegated to "sidekick" again and made less for Sam. The writers hate Dean. Blah, blah, blah. How do those nutters take any joy from this show? They're obsessed with Dean and screentime and Dean not getting his due......just obsessed. Being with Lisa lessened Dean. Yeah, right. They showed that he thought about her before, but apparently he should have been talking about her 24/7 just like a chick. They always want the brothers to act like chicks.....until they angst too much....then they're wimps, of course.

So.....was Chuck God?

Yeah they are going apeshit over there. But they do have a valid complaint. Dean has historically only expressed love towards Cassie (Yuck, what a horrible episode that was), everyone else has always just been a sexual encounter. And that was what Lisa was as well. His motivation was great sex.

Heck in his dream world the love of his life is a model on a beer bottle.

It wasn't until he thought he sired a child with her that caused him to ponder the life he never was going to get. But we never, ever saw any contact with them after that point before he died. And we didn't see any after he came back in season four. And I don't think he would have in the place he was at during season 4.

So I don't in any way shape or form believe Dean has had an emotional connection with this women or her son after that third season episode. And then all of a sudden he shows up at her door step (a few episodes ago). And then we see him back.

It is the one part of the episode that isn't believable at all.

But...they needed to get Dean to a plot point (and this we have seen some of) both his desire and Sam desire for Dean to have a real life. A life outside of hunting (and I was so so pleased to see Sam broach this subject as well as making Dean promise to not make another deal). So we needed to see him content with someone. And really screen wise the only female he has had any real time with (thats still alive or someone not named Cassie (no never want to see her and Dean's zero chemistry ever again) left us with Lisa.

Now does that make an episode an F, hardly. But it is legitimate criticism.

It was also nice to see Sam return to Dean and that life and for Sam to see Dean trying.

I actually have hope for next year.

 

[mswood]

Actually, I believe Michael said "he's not in right now," with the implication that he was completely subdued by Michael's will. Not that the body was an empty vessel.

Yeah, but I still think my thoughts are accurate as it plays into heaven's original offer to Adam.

After all why keep his "soul" with the body. All he needs to do is consent. Once that's done he can be in Heaven with his Mother.

Now Lucifer seems to have the desire to have someone actually share his opinion and keeps pounding that home to Sam that they are one and the same, so I can understand him keeping him around, plus what's he got to offer to Sam's soul. Hell?

It also plays into Dean's comments directly after towards Michael.

But no matter even if I am completely wrong and Adam is there, Dean does show some anger to Michael about it, but if he is willing to set by and watch Sam go down into the Pit, do we honestly think he is going to be focused much at all about this person he never knew, even if there is a blood connection? After all at the time this is occurring all they are doing is temporary to Adam's body as unlike possession by demons the host of an angel doesn't carry the wounds (see Castiel who has been shot and stabbed and Jimmy retook his body for an episode). That then only leaves Dean actually having to worry when he is down in the Pitt. And then the same situation is Dean (especially right after) going to be really thinking of anything besides Sam in Hell, and using his own experience in Hell as a starting point for what Sam is going through? Because I am sorry but Dean isn't.

 

[Checkmate]

Have we ever seen an angel or archangel take over a soul-less body? I think they need (active) consent in order to inhabit someone.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

No, I don't believe we've seen that. Mswood, I also have some hope for next year.

 

[Apophis]

Pretty good review here. He goes into some of what has been discussed in this thread, particularly regarding the identity of Chuck, as well as an interesting theory regarding what tricks Lucifer might have picked up from Gabriel:

Other theories floating around are that Sam is now an angel, or that it wasn't Sam at all, but Lucifer. That one goes something like this: Lucifer never actually went into the box. If you'll remember in "Hammer of the Gods," Lucifer reminded Gabriel that he taught him everything he knows, including his little holographic-clone trick. Lucifer made himself appear to be standing over the pit to Hell, and Michael took the bait and fell into the hole with the "fake" Lucifer. The result: Lucifer's main nemesis is stuck in Hell and he can roam the Earth without fear.

Interesting possibility...

 

[Checkmate]

Yeah, I don't think it was Sam myself. The flickering street light (which mirrored the very first episode) is an indicator of the Yellow-Eyed Demon at the very least, and possibly other powerful demons or demonic archangels.

I guess they had to do something to lead into the next season. I just kind of wish they had called it quits here and went with an alternate setting instead. A beautiful ending was marred by the painfully tacked-on cliffhanger.

 

[hyzmarca]

It's an interesting possibility, but it is very clear that Sam was in control.

 

[Apophis]

Yeah, I don't think it was Sam myself. The flickering street light (which mirrored the very first episode) is an indicator of the Yellow-Eyed Demon at the very least, and possibly other powerful demons or demonic archangels.

I guess they had to do something to lead into the next season. I just kind of wish they had called it quits here and went with an alternate setting instead. A beautiful ending was marred by the painfully tacked-on cliffhanger.

The only thing which casts doubt in my mind that it was Sam was the expression on his face. It could be a lot of things, but my first impression was anger or something close to it. It was all very subtle, and maybe it's just my imagination... but since that was the last scene I assume it was shot carefully and they got exactly what they wanted to convey.

 

[hyzmarca]

You ever watched The Incredible Hulk? No matter how much he cares able the people in the town of the week, David Banner always walks away as sad piano music plays in the background.

The expression on Sam's face brought back memories that to me, as it seemed to convey that sense of sadness and loss. I think that, looking in at Dean's happy ending, he was trying to decide whether he should go in or just turn around and walk away. And I think that he chose the latter.

Sam wants Dean to settle down and have a normal life, and he wants that for himseld, too. But it's not something that he can have himself, not yet. Afer everything he's done he couldn't allow himself to have a normal life, and wouldn't know where to begin trying even if he could.

 

[Lt. Trull]

Well.... unless you can get one of the writers to confess what they ment by that ending with sam.....
you got what the writers wanted you to get.... a hook to draw you into the next season to see what happens next.....

enjoy

 

[Apophis]

Well.... unless you can get one of the writers to confess what they ment by that ending with sam.....
you got what the writers wanted you to get.... a hook to draw you into the next season to see what happens next.....

enjoy

This is true. It always seems that writers insert very vague things in season enders to have multiple threads to pick up next season as they need them. Frustrating as that is for us loyal fans.

 

[mswood]

Have we ever seen an angel or archangel take over a soul-less body? I think they need (active) consent in order to inhabit someone.

I don't think so, but if they needed active consent how does that explain Sam constantly thinking he didn't want Lucifer in control? We do know that demons can possess corpses, and we know that angels need consent to initially take control over a host, but clearly with Sam we know that once you give control up, to retake control you have to have something extremely powerful happen to allow you to regain control over your body.

Which is also fairly true of what happens with people who have managed to retake control over their body when a demon is possessing them.

 

[Lt. Trull]

Io9 has another interesting article about the finale....
http://io9.com/5539243/supernatural-finale-justifies-our-love-for-an-absent-god

and their right... how could sam and dean ever lose when both god and death are on their side.

 

[Vendikarr]

did I hear right when castiel said that He got a upgrade and is now in charge of heaven.... also... michael is missing... presumed stuck in hell with lucy.... fitting I think since michael being in charge in heaven allowed all this crap to happen.

I think Cas went from being powerless to archangel status. With Gabriel dead and Michael in heaven, they need another archangel.

I guess it's Castiel's reward for his loyalty and support of the Winchesters.

what makes you think that michael is in heaven... cas said michael is missing... presumed stuck in hell with lucy... a fitting punishment by god really....
for not getting along with his siblings....

Oops, meant Michael was in Hell.

 

[3D Master]

Damn this was a perfect season finale, and would have been, with some tweaks (or not) a perfect series finale.

Micheal being judged every bit as bad as Lucifer and dumped into hell with him! You can't get much better than that.

Get the whole Sam and Adam in there as well, Castiel dead, Bobby dead, Dean with his girl, that's fucking epic.

And are their a few holes here and there; sure, hell, Kripke/Chuck/God even said so: "Every ending has holes, and fans will find them, and they'll bitch and moan."

10/10 for me.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

And are their a few holes here and there; sure, hell, Kripke/Chuck/God even said so: "Every ending has holes, and fans will find them, and they'll bitch and moan."

The TWOPsters were mightily offended at that one. God, they take themselves so seriously. Apparently none of them ever viewed TATV. Now there's a middle finger.