Oh dear. Senior moment.
Supernatural5x21 "Two Minutes to Midnight"
- Thread starter Dorian Thompson
- Start date
On this board it appears to be just you. Even on the episodes I don't like that much out of a typical 41 minuet episodes I usually find more then 5 minutes of material that I enjoy. Hell even the episode I hate, hate Changing Channels had that much material.Hasn't that been the formula all season--35 minutes of filler then 5 minutes of interesting character stuff/plot revelations/mythology. Or maybe that might have just been how it felt to me.
While I do agree in spirit that the stand alone's weren't that strong this year (especially in how they tied themselves to the larger picture, or in providing a tone that was consistent with the rest of the season). And truly in comparison to season 4 (and 2) they don't hold up. But I also have a harder time deciding what is a stand alone episode (more this season then any other). Are the horse men episodes part of the myth arc, how about the anti-Christ episode? Because I really enjoyed all of those.
I think first when we talk about these things we need to figure out what episodes each person would consider myth arc episodes and which would you count as a stand alone.
For example for myself I would break down the season as:
Sympathy with The Devil (Heavy Myth arc)
Good God Y'all (moderate Myth Arc)
Free to be You and Me (moderate Myth Arc)
The End (Heavy Myth Arc)
Fallen Idols (stand alone)
I Believe Children Are Our Future (Stand Alone)
The curious Case of Dean Winchester (Stand Alone)
Changing Channels (Moderate Myth Arc)
The Real Ghostbusters (Stand Alone)
Abandon All Hope (Heavy Myth Arc)
Sam, Interrupted (Stand Alone)
Swap Meat (Stand Alone)
The Song Remains the Sam (Moderate Myth Arc)
My Bloody Valentine (Moderate Myth Arc)
Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid (Moderate Myth Arc)
Dark Side of the Moon (Moderate Myth Arc)
99 Problems (Moderate Myth Arc)
Point of No Return (Heavy Myth Arc)
Hammer of the Gods (Heavy Myth Arc)
The Devil You Know (Moderate Myth Arc)
Two Minutes to Midnight (Heavy Myth Arc)
Swan Song (I assume Heavy Myth Arc)
Out of that list any episode listed as Moderate Myth Arc could be argued to be a stand alone, as it doesn't direct confront the battle between Lucifer and Heaven. But I think each has enough material tied to either side and the coming confrontation that I would put them in that category. But by the same token you could call all of those episodes Myth Arc episodes.
And out of that bunch the only ones I did not like (Hammer of the Gods, which was just way to uneven for my taste and really, really should have been two hours) and of course Changing Channels in my opinion the worst episode of the season (also highly highly uneven, the only episode for a good section where I really didn't feel like I was watching Sam and Dean).
Out of the stand alone's I disliked Swap Meat (one of the shows weakest episodes), and was absolutely neutral to Curious Case of Dean Winchester, Fallen Idol. I sort of liked (say a C+) Sam Interrupted (but was really expecting so much more from that episode, so was disappointed by it in much the same way I felt about Folsom Prison Blues), and I actually sort of liked The Real Ghostbusters (again about a C+) on an episode I expected to hate. And I really , really liked Children Are Our Future (say an A-). And it was as tied to the myth arc as Swap Meat was (mention of Lucifer and character roles, use of demons, ect).
So I can't honestly say that I wasn't pleased by this season, but I can say I wanted a little more. But it was (for me certainly) above average television. By far. Great? Nope, but good.
I guess for myself a better comparison would be its more typical of me finding 5 full minutes that I think didn't work at all, and in an episode of almost any show I like, thats common. even the shows that I love.
I was obviously being a bit facetious with the remark I made--I didn't literally mean there was barely 5 minutes of enjoyable material in a given episode. My point was that the season felt sorta aimless for me.
It really for me isn't about whether something is a standalone or myth episode--it is more of a case of whether I liked it.
Like I have repeatedly said that if the episodes that focused less on the core material were well done I wouldn't complain. However, I find a lot of them downright boring--(The Curious Case of Dean Winchester, The Real Ghostbusters, Swap Meat, Sam Interrupted, Fallen Idols, Free to Be You and Me, Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid) or awful(Changing Channels, The Hammer of the Gods).
I realize no series will ever have a perfect season(although season one of Heroes was pretty close as well as several seasons of LOST where on those shows I enjoyed every single episode and the worst was average) but I do expect some level of consistency in the episode quality. This season has been all over the board. I honestly was not invested in the show. All this show has going for it is character work--the show isn't very well-plotted with threads being dropped or other elements that appear to be going somewhere never tied back in, the budget is limited, they aren't very ambitious in their storytelling, the character jeopardy hasn't generated genuine tension in ages, the action sequences are pretty routine/predictable, the monsters of the week have been reduced to nothing more than a MacGuffin or afterthought, etc. That leaves the character stuff which hasn't been that interesting. There were a few times where it felt well worn and added nothing really new to what we already had seen before. I've already mentioned the way the inordinate amount of comedy episodes that break the fourth wall in such an agregious manner have just hurt the dramatic gravitas of the show--even some of the humor within a single episode was out of place(i.e. Dean trying to get Castiel laid in ep 3). I couldn't stand Zach this season. Castiel has been underused.
The only episodes I have watched more than once have been "The End", "Children are Our Future", "Abandon all Hope", "My Bloody Valentine" and "Two Minutes to Midnite".
I will personally disagree, I found it an overall middling season of television even considering how crappy tv has been this year. Honestly, the only shows that I have consistently enjoyed that I have so far gotten to watch and found above average this year were LOST(though it hasn't been as good this season as it can be), Legend of the Seeker, The Vampire Diaries(which really surprised me by how strong it has been as a series).
Fringe has been uneven but not nearly as bad as SN--it has had more enjoyable episodes overall. Like SN, it seems to really shine with myth heavy episodes but really the standalones are not impressive.
The rest of the shows that I've tried have been bad like the botched Melrose Place relaunch and Heroes or just very pedestrian i.e. Flash Forward, V, Caprica.
SN probably falls right smack in the middle. It has produced a very average season overall with a few really great pieces that I've enjoyed.
I don't get it.... that hotel god episode basically stated that each god was created when enough people believed in them then they formed existance.... would'nt that be the same with with the catholic mythos... yet.... death said that god (implying the christian god) and him were created at the beginning of things.... and who knows which one is older... yet... that mythos also implies that god is all knowing... all seeing and transcends death.... what's going on... do the writers even pay attention to the stuff they spew out...
Checkmate
Commodore
They said nothing of their creation or origins, and only implied -- never stated, only implied -- that their strength comes from the amount of followers they have. And even though several of them are still actively worshipped (Kali, Ganesh, etc.) by large numbers of people, they were just as 'weak' as the other gods in that episode. Which was explained by Lucifer's (or was it Gabriel's?) comment that they had basically resigned their power to the Judeo-Christian faith -- but, again, never went into the specifics of how or why.
So, yeah, I imagine the writers pay a bit more attention than you apparently do.
So, yeah, I imagine the writers pay a bit more attention than you apparently do.
I agree with Checkmate.
There are several things we can infer from Death's statements.
1) God (big G) is an anthropomorphic personification of life (the very concept of life), and Big D is an anthropomorphic personification of the very concept of death. Both are about as old as the universe is.
2)Earth is not the center of things, in spite of the angels' fascination with it. Most likely there are other life-bearing world out there. Some of them might even have Chicago-style deep dish pizza, or something even better.
3) The Pagan gods all eat humans, apparently.
4) Though Lucifer is often described as being extremely powerful, it seems that his real advantages are superior awareness and invulnerability to everything except an angel blade. He hasn't yet done anything particularly impressive, instead letting his minions do all the heavy lifting. He's incapable of or unwilling to do things that the pagan gods can accomplish easily (such as conjuring giant storms). I suspect that this is a limitation of his host as much as anything.
1) God (big G) is an anthropomorphic personification of life (the very concept of life), and Big D is an anthropomorphic personification of the very concept of death. Both are about as old as the universe is.
2)Earth is not the center of things, in spite of the angels' fascination with it. Most likely there are other life-bearing world out there. Some of them might even have Chicago-style deep dish pizza, or something even better.
3) The Pagan gods all eat humans, apparently.
4) Though Lucifer is often described as being extremely powerful, it seems that his real advantages are superior awareness and invulnerability to everything except an angel blade. He hasn't yet done anything particularly impressive, instead letting his minions do all the heavy lifting. He's incapable of or unwilling to do things that the pagan gods can accomplish easily (such as conjuring giant storms). I suspect that this is a limitation of his host as much as anything.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Which is one thing I had some trouble with, I must say, it weakened that episode for me. I can see Kali to it, as she's both creator and destroyer, but Odin and the other Viking gods? These guys were pretty much entirely good; it was of course, a consequence of their worshiper's climate. They lived in a more often than not frozen world where nature was an unholy bitch that seemed hell bent on their destruction. The world, and standard nature, was hostile. So whenever there was something good, something out of the norm, it must be the gods, and Vikings could really use the help. Result; their gods were pretty much totally good and protectors of mankind.
In climates where nature is mostly calm and gentle with the exception of the occasional violent outburst; you get the exact opposite. (Mother) Nature is nice and sweet, while the gods are a bunch of jealous, violent a-holes.
Makes you wonder if there are some pagan gods that could actually lay the smackdown on Lucifer by the sheer fact that they are near universally loved, even by those who follow the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god: Hercules and Thor. (May even be the reason they weren't depicted to be human eaters!)
Jeez that was MATT FREWAR!!??!!! Now I have to watch it again! Kick me for not looking at casting credits.
I might have missed some lines, but I didn't quite get that. The pagan gods seem to be supernatural creatures that are off the scale compared to a shapeshifter or whatever. But they draw power from human death, that was spelled out in the Christmas Green Man episode. They get more power when they have worshippers who sacrifice to them (like the Aztecs, Kali, and AFAIK the Green Man). If I had to pin down a theory, I would say they were creatures who stepped into the roles of existing mythology to take advantage of the deaths available to be dedicated to them. So Odin jokes about Ragnorok because it really has nothing to do with him, he just stepped into the role.
I haven't quite seen that Lucifer, Michael and the other angels and demons are necessarily totally Judeo-Christian. They are just as much Zorostrian, or Enochian. It's more like a series of crazy mystics and prophets have occured through history and talked about them, and the stories got mixed in with the Judeo-Christian books. But maybe that's just the agnostic in me struggling with how much I enjoy the storyline...
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3D Master
Rear Admiral
??? If you're a fan of the dude, shouldn't you recognize him? It wasn't like he was in unrecognizable makeup.
Except that nobody ever sacrificed to Odin. Like I explained, the Viking gods are near universally (with the exception of the evil trickster Loki) good guys, because the Vikings desperately needed good guys on their side. The Viking gods never demanded any sacrifice. Further, Odin doesn't joke about Ragnarok, he says he wonders what's he's doing here, because the Judeo-Christian apocalypse has got nothing on him, he's prophesied to die at Ragnarok.
Checkmate
Commodore
Uhm, if you think the Norse didn't partake in ritual sacrifice, your information is terribly wrong. Odin had a particularly odd form of sacrifice associated with him in the form of hanging and strangulation.
^What he said. Also there was that whole dying in battle to get into the heroe's hall thing, which reminds of the Muslim Jihad thing. Not to be disrespectful but I'm not a big fan of religions anyway.
As to Frewar, I haven't seen him in anything since Max Headroom, and a few other shows from around that time (Robin of Sherwood springs to mind). So it's been almost 30 years. Give me a break I'm an old man.
As to Frewar, I haven't seen him in anything since Max Headroom, and a few other shows from around that time (Robin of Sherwood springs to mind). So it's been almost 30 years. Give me a break I'm an old man.
If anything, Supernatural seems to espouse a deistic point of view. A creator God/being is there, but he doesn't interfere much. That's how I see it. I enjoy the storyline, too.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Not really. Deism is, there's a god/something, but I've got no clue what he is or wants; because as a mere human I could not possibly understand such a being. And anyone claiming he does, is false.
Supernatural isn't quite that, because they got straight up what god wants: I'm not going to interfere, now leave me alone.
I understood deism to be the watchmaker analogy. God made the "watch", wound it up, and then let it alone to work away. God doesn't keep meddling with the gears and springs, or even adjust the time. I could be way off though.
That's what I understood, LaxScrutiny.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
No, that's just one view of god that was made popular a few centuries ago, and is often the view of god today; completely regardless of which religion or faith system you adhere to.
Most deists lived in the time the watchmaker reached its zenith in popularity so most if not all deists may have looked at god in such a way, but it's not what deism is about. Deism is about, there IS something out there, but this something is completely unknowable, it also mean there's no point in trying to do so. Every man should just live his life by his own code of conduct. Deism is a very anti-organized religion religion.
^No, that's Anti-Neo-post-Rationalist-Deism.
ok, are we still talking about The Matrix here? oh no wait, that's the Keymaker!
I just rewatch this episode (as well as the first four of the season, and surprised how I really enjoyed all four of them a little more viewed back to back, the way I normally few some shows, Lost primarily, except for this season since i can't wait).
And there was scene that I love a little more, becuase I didn't catch it the first time.
When Crowly appears at Bobby's and takes a shot of whiskey sniffs it and puts it down, I thought Oh he just got standards. Then I realized I had it wrong. Bobby has put holy water in all his alcohol (as witnessed in two different episodes, but they mention the reason then) here they just let it play and trust you know the show. And I can't believe I didn't catch it.
And there was scene that I love a little more, becuase I didn't catch it the first time.
When Crowly appears at Bobby's and takes a shot of whiskey sniffs it and puts it down, I thought Oh he just got standards. Then I realized I had it wrong. Bobby has put holy water in all his alcohol (as witnessed in two different episodes, but they mention the reason then) here they just let it play and trust you know the show. And I can't believe I didn't catch it.
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