Supernatural 7x2 "Hello Cruel World" spoiler discussion thread

[Captain Mike]

So if Lucifer is still around toying with Sam, where the hell is Michael? And that whole thing with Sam's hallucination of "Dean" driving him to the warehouse in the impala. Does that imply Sam actually drove himself with an identical black impala? Where did the second car come from? I get what they were trying to do and I know I'm supposed to suspend belief here but come on!

I stated that in my thread about the first clip before the first episode....SOMEONE stated that they had to "KEEP" Michael in the cage if I am not mistaken. Perhaps he or Dean being Michael's "vessel" is an important plot element to the Leviathans. Being as Michael was the most powerful Angel next to Lucifer, maybe he had something to do with the Leviathans being in the position they were in Purgatory?....

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

So if Lucifer is still around toying with Sam, where the hell is Michael? And that whole thing with Sam's hallucination of "Dean" driving him to the warehouse in the impala. Does that imply Sam actually drove himself with an identical black impala? Where did the second car come from? I get what they were trying to do and I know I'm supposed to suspend belief here but come on!

If you look, when Sam & "Dean" get out of the car, Sam has the keys in his hands.

And when Dean arrivas at the warehouse where Sam is, there is a patched up van there, one of Bobby's many scrap vehicles.

whoa must have totally missed that, thanks.

 

[mswood]

Guys Lucifer isn't there. He and Michael and half Brother Adam are still unhappily in the Pit.

This is just a figment of Sam's shattered psyche.

Though the one solid thing I think we can take out of this is that Michael wasn't an excessive dick to Sam in the Pit.

 

[Captain Mike]

Guys Lucifer isn't there. He and Michael and half Brother Adam are still unhappily in the Pit.

This is just a figment of Sam's shattered psyche.

Though the one solid thing I think we can take out of this is that Michael wasn't an excessive dick to Sam in the Pit.

You have sneak peeks into the scripts of this season or what?!?

 

[mswood]

Startrekwatcher

While I can certainly understand you choosing not to watch the show (and loosing interest in it), what I can't understand is this.

The show doesn't have the budget to be epic or do justice to their big bads anymore

The show has never, never had the money to showcase even monsters of the week effectively literally going back to Wendigo (when the producers came face to face with the short comings of the budget ability).

True that's why I never understood why the writers introduced seemingly epic storylines/ideas knowing they would never be able to truly do them justice. It only leads to disappointment. At least in the first 4 seasons(not surprisingly where what I consider the three best seasons come from)Azazel and Lilith and their threat was more manageable and better able to be executed--at least in my opinion.

but the show has just gotten formulaic and repetitive

Actually the show has always been formulaic. From the get go. In fact season 6 was the least formulaic to date of any season of SPN (doesn't mean it was a great season, but it was the least formulaic of SPN's history).

Maybe so but maybe I didn't notice it so much since the show was fresh and new in those early seasons--it seemed anything was possible. Season one was mostly standalones that existed for their own sake and entertaining. Azazel wasn't banished only to have a new threat appear after one season.

Now I know what to expect from being a longtime viewer so I feel like I'm going through the motions and so are the writers--even if Sam or Dean dies they don't stay dead, if Bobby is paralyzed he'll get his legs back, the season will have a mix of less than interesting standalones and more compelling heavy myth episodes, we'll get a comedy episode here and there, we'll have a big event right before winter hiatus, then back to Jan/Feb standalones, the guys will seek clues for the big monster of the season until they stumble upon some convenient fantastical macguffin that falls right into their laps(the show used to have more inventive ways to handling threats of the week), the big bad is vanquished, Sam and Dean keep things from each other, Sam and/or Dean is on the verge of a breakdown, are keeping things from each other, they get mad, one goes off on their own i.e. Dean to Lisa's before offering himself up to Michael or Sam to Ruby to develop his powers, they'll be one ot two meta episodes that break the fourth wall etc etc.

What was once fresh has just gotten stale for me. Season 4 was the show's pinnacle--season 5 showed cracks but I was willing to ride it out because Kripke had a 5 year plan. Now the CW is just dragging it out in my opinion.

From my own personal tv experience in the last decade it seems shows these days just burn bright then burn out quickly--they don't have the creative longevity as shows had pre-2000s--Heroes, BSG, Supernatural, Fringe etc

See I have to disagree (to an extent) about the types of episodes and how they are placed in a season. Specifically.

It was never fresh, ever. They out and out copied the pattern of X-Files (you could even say Buffy and Angel, but the tone of SPN is much, much closer to X-Files). From the fourth episode I knew how they would lay episodes out.

Start, mid season, and end heavy on Arc (check from X-Files). Use main plot to heighten character issues of leads. Check from X-Files. Have one to three out and out meta episodes per season to lighten the mode. Check from X-Files.

Right out of the gate the show formula was set. And for that for the most part has stayed the same.

Season one while featuring more unique monsters on an average week, was heavily tied to its arc. As much as the other seasons. Just because the "bad guys" each episode were different doesn't mean the show wasn't arc based.

 

[mswood]

Guys Lucifer isn't there. He and Michael and half Brother Adam are still unhappily in the Pit.

This is just a figment of Sam's shattered psyche.

Though the one solid thing I think we can take out of this is that Michael wasn't an excessive dick to Sam in the Pit.

You have sneak peeks into the scripts of this season or what?!?

Yes.

 

[timothy]

great episodes fantastic bad guys. looking forward to the new comic book.
I was wondering if any one has read the novels and if they are any good?

 

[OsmiumJohnnycake]

Yeah I liked this episode a lot. So far this is a great start to a season. I also liked the little jokes and callbacks, like Dr. Sexy. So happy the police officer woman wasn't killed. I guess what I like best so far about this season is it has a nice feeling of balance to all the elements.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Jensen Ackles directed next week's episode.

 

[mswood]

Jensen Ackles directed next week's episode.

Yeah, he's a hack.

 

[Ryan]

I also really like the serial aspect of the first three episode, which if I am not mistaken is the first time the show has ever done this.

Definitely very cool. I hope we see more of it.

I liked how Bobby's house burning down caused it to get way smaller. It's also nuts they'd make their long established sets all useless.

 

[Captain Mike]

Guys Lucifer isn't there. He and Michael and half Brother Adam are still unhappily in the Pit.

This is just a figment of Sam's shattered psyche.

Though the one solid thing I think we can take out of this is that Michael wasn't an excessive dick to Sam in the Pit.

You have sneak peeks into the scripts of this season or what?!?

Yes.

Then tell me why Castiel told Crowley, that and I quote..."Michael needs to be kept in the "cage"?...why not Lucifer??
Because he already has a way out or is???

 

[mswood]

You have sneak peeks into the scripts of this season or what?!?

Yes.

Then tell me why Castiel told Crowley, that and I quote..."Michael needs to be kept in the "cage"?...why not Lucifer??
Because he already has a way out or is???

"I need a threat to hold over my enemies, and I need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage"

Who are Castiel's enemies? Certainly no human force is strong enough to be considered his enemy? And we know no demon has the ability to get to Lucifer's cage.

Let see could it be Angels? Angel's who recently lost their leader. Angel's who previously who had a different leader for eons, one that is now in Hell.

Heck even's Castiel's followers probably have a great deal of loyalty to Michael.

 

[Captain Mike]

Yes.

Then tell me why Castiel told Crowley, that and I quote..."Michael needs to be kept in the "cage"?...why not Lucifer??
Because he already has a way out or is???

"I need a threat to hold over my enemies, and I need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage"

Who are Castiel's enemies? Certainly no human force is strong enough to be considered his enemy? And we know no demon has the ability to get to Lucifer's cage.

Let see could it be Angels? Angel's who recently lost their leader. Angel's who previously who had a different leader for eons, one that is now in Hell.

Heck even's Castiel's followers probably have a great deal of loyalty to Michael.

I se some of your point but not all...What about the hallucinations that Lucy is able to do at the beginning of season 4?
Yes you can fall back on your theory that it is all in Sam's mind...something I disagree with and think there is more to it.But hey we can't all be right.

 

[OsmiumJohnnycake]

My gut reaction is that there's more to it than that. I'll admit a little part of me was excited that Sam had never escaped the cage. Even though I'm not sure I like the ramifications of s6 never happening outside of Sam's mind. But it would sure mix things up a bit and it wouldn't seem as cheap as the Dallas dream season because of the in-story reason.

Anyway, I doubt that's the case but I don't think it's impossible that it's really Lucifer somehow and that it will lead somewhere. There's no way Leviathans are the only big bad this season.

As for your question about Castiel's line, Captain Mike, I'd suggest Lucifer being kept in the pit is one of those things Castiel would feel was so obvious it didn't need to be mentioned. Like nobody would need to say, "Let's keep the ice in the freezer."

 

[mswood]

You mean where lucifer was able to talk to the king of Hell after eons of no contact (and Azazel trying to reach him) in one specific place in the world?

Now I could see Sam hearing Lucifers voice. Like the faint whisper Azazel was able to here. But the fact that he not only hears voices, but visually sees things, that happen to all occur after Sam's wall comes down and not when his soul was restored just doesn't logically fit for me.

 

[hyzmarca]

It would be funny if Lucifer just cut open Sam's soul and crawled inside, hiding there when Death showed up to rescue Sam, trapped behind the wall all that time and now unable to take control without Sam's explicit permission.

 

[Captain Mike]

You mean where lucifer was able to talk to the king of Hell after eons of no contact (and Azazel trying to reach him) in one specific place in the world?

Now I could see Sam hearing Lucifers voice. Like the faint whisper Azazel was able to here. But the fact that he not only hears voices, but visually sees things, that happen to all occur after Sam's wall comes down and not when his soul was restored just doesn't logically fit for me.

Sorry that was a mistype,SHOULD have read season 5..
as with Lucy being able to have Nick and Sam have hallucinations, which seems to be his "repertoire".

It would be funny if Lucifer just cut open Sam's soul and crawled inside, hiding there when Death showed up to rescue Sam, trapped behind the wall all that time and now unable to take control without Sam's explicit permission.

That is along the lines of what I am thinking but not as much. I feel that Lucy somehow left a "part" of himself in Sam.

 

[mswood]

Sam was only able to be visited by Lucifer in his dreams. Lucifer can't even track him (unless his protection has been removed from being able to be tracked (which seems unusual sense they wouldn't want to have Raphael or others Angels' to be able to track Dean and Sam, so I would assume they still remain).

He was never able to initiate a contact with Sam being in a walking state. Even when he was fully roaming the earth.

Death, who freed Sam, stated how resilient and immutable the human soul is. Death also was how shall we put it, mightily pissed off at Lucifer. I don't think he would bring Sam back if it meant bringing Lucifer. And as Death seems very familiar with souls, I would think it would be nigh impossible to trick it.

Nor can I see why Lucifer would want to put apart of hmself inside Sam's mind. He can torture him both physically and mentally already in hell. He doesn't need to put his consciousness inside Sam to do so.

THe only logical reason to do so is if he thought Sam would be returned to Earth. I think its fair to say that he wouldn't think Death would bring Sam back, that no demons could, and that Angels wouldn't risk bringing Sam back (unless they were also wanting to free both Lucifer and Michael to restart the apocalypse, so why put part of yourself in Sam). THat leaves one other being that could save Sam. God. Would Lucifer first think God would be willing to bring Sam back? And would he think God so careless to allow part of Lucifer to gain freedom?

And we see no evidence that an Angel or demon leave a partial residue from using a being as a host. And we have seen people who were hosted far longer on earth.

For example did John hold some part of Michael's essence and take that down to hell with him when he died?