Supernatural 6x2 "Two and a Half Men" spoiler/discussion thread
- Thread starter Dorian Thompson
- Start date
I assume that was one of the cannon fod...erm...family... Sam made a point about his working only with family, so I can't imagine one of them being a non-Campbell.
It was Mark Campbell.
Actually I don't know if a CRD has the ability to get someone out of heaven, and I can't believe that they would have the ability to free someone from Lucifer's Cage.
Certainly they would have managed that at some point if they did. Or they would have just gotten someone to sell their soul to put Lucifer back in the Pit.
As for Heaven, we have yet to see any evidence that a CRD can take someone out of Heaven.
We know they can bring a soul back, but we don't know if they are limited to just Hell or if they can also access Heaven.
Sam has died several times.
1st time killed by Jake and brought back by a CRD.
2nd time by a wish, and based on clips and statements by Angels he was in Heaven during this time.
3rd time, killed by Hunters and in Heaven (where we learn Sam had been at one point in Heaven before, and where clips imply this was from wishful thinking).
4th time. Well actually he didn't actually die the 4th time. He just opened a hole to the deepest Pit in Hell (but I think he was alive for this).
Well any way Jared in an interview stated that Sam has been in Hell before. Process of elimination that in Jared's eyes (be in from just his personal view of the character or something that has been mentioned to him from the writers) that when Sam was killed by Jake he went to Hell. Also works with all the "did he come back wrong" comments. as we would expect more of a change from Hell to be negative.
So we don't know if a CRD can access heaven in a deal. Certainly there are other limits to their abilities, as Crowley certainly wanted Lucifer gone and would have instructed Bobby (which he already did to get Death's location to retrieve his ring) to give a trade that either could have gotten Death's ring, or just send Lucy back.
I do think Crowley would absolutely love to take advantage of the power void to take over as the big boss in Hell. And it wouldn't surprise me at all to see him work with Samuel (after all we don't know where Samuel went, he very easily could have been in hell).
That's what I was thinking. Maybe Samuel wasn't in heaven at all.
I think I have to disagree with you on this one Dorian.
First we know the boys will use a child as bait. They did it all the way back in the first season. And lets face it both Sam & Dean have changed dramatically since then. We also saw in season three Sam's willingness to use a human sacrifice as a means to combat an evil.
So using a half human baby as bait. Doesn't surprise me at all. And hell Dean, who is always been so adamant that everything not human is a monster really shouldn't have a huge issue with it either (again he was the one more open to using Michael as bait in the first season before all the changes he has gone through). And of course we saw Sam perfectly willing to sacrifice a human female (then Bobby) on just the possibility that he was under the manipulation of the Trickster (though we don't know if Sam ever told Dean about what happened here).
But the question is did Sam know that Samuel was going to use said child as bait. And I have to say no. The reason is really straight forward. To date we have yet to see any direct evidence that Sam has lied to Dean since being out of Hell. In fact he has been quite honest with Dean. Even being honest knowing the emotional harm it would cause Dean and knowing that it would harm their relationship.
So what would be the benefit it lying to Dean on this case? Obviously Dean knows Sam would in fact, if push came to shove us a child for bait. So it shouldn't be that. And we have seen Sam causing create emotional harm to Dean by being perfectly honest with him, so I can't see why he would suddenly feel the need to lie over this.
It just isn't consistent with his behavior.
But Sam's so....disengaged. It's as if he's completely divorced from his emotions. Something is up with him. Dean was negatively affected by hell, but you could feel the stress radiating off of him as he tried to suppress his pain. Sam's emotions are completely submerged. It's jarring. What was up with that look on his face when Dean hugged him at the beginning last week?
Oh clearly Sam's changed. There isn't any doubt about that. He is much closer to the hunter we saw him become in Mystery Spot (I would say about half way there). And clearly he wants Dean to come with him (most likely) as a way to regain a some semblance of what he has lost (as I can't imagine how Dean would have dealt when he returned if Sam wasn't there).
I think Sam had to bottle himself up, not only to try and function after what he did and caused (again even if he went in being told by pretty much everyone, except Dean, that what he was doing was for the good of all). And even more so, to keep himself away from Dean when he probably needed him more then even after Jessica died (after all how many people are going to be able to help pull you through starting the end of days and dealing with your existence in hell besides the person who knows you better then anyone else oh and happens to know exactly how it feels to have helped start the end of days and what its like in hell). He sacrificed his chance to heal, to give Dean his life. And after a year, I don't think he can let those barriers down. Yet at the end of that first episode where he asks Dean to come back with him, you can see that need he has to have Dean back with him. It's like he knows he is lost and that Dean is the only one who can help reach him, but he can't push that. He can't just guilt Dean in to dropping ht e life that Sam has always dreamed Dean would have.
I think Sam had to bottle himself up, not only to try and function after what he did and caused (again even if he went in being told by pretty much everyone, except Dean, that what he was doing was for the good of all). And even more so, to keep himself away from Dean when he probably needed him more then even after Jessica died (after all how many people are going to be able to help pull you through starting the end of days and dealing with your existence in hell besides the person who knows you better then anyone else oh and happens to know exactly how it feels to have helped start the end of days and what its like in hell). He sacrificed his chance to heal, to give Dean his life. And after a year, I don't think he can let those barriers down. Yet at the end of that first episode where he asks Dean to come back with him, you can see that need he has to have Dean back with him. It's like he knows he is lost and that Dean is the only one who can help reach him, but he can't push that. He can't just guilt Dean in to dropping ht e life that Sam has always dreamed Dean would have.
Checkmate
Commodore
I think the Crossroad Demons tap into the almighty power of "free will." We haven't seen even a hint that they have a limit to thir power. If a deal is struck, it seems to be doable as long as the human making the deal is exercising his free will. I also don't think we've ever seen any other kind of creature make a deal; not demons, not angels, not monsters -- just humans -- which adds to the whole free will thing that much more.
And yeah, I'm doubting Samuel was in heaven. We only have his word to go on in that regard, but either way I don't see why the Crossroad Demons wouldn't be able to do it. Their powers clearly tap into something beyond what other demons access. They're more like a magic genie than the djinn are. Make a wish, give up your soul of your own free will, and badda-pow.
Anyway, like I said, I have jack all to back this up. It's just the impression I got from the singular scene of Samuel on the phone. Crowley's the only one who really makes any sense for bringing both of them back without introducing something completely out of left field. And while season 5 was written to be the finale, it seems clear to me that Crowley still had plans in the work.
The only other option I see is Death himself. But he seems to blatantly annoyed with Earth that I don't think he gave a damn once Sam and Dean took care of Lucifer for him. I doubt he'd put much effort into... well, anything... dealing with those paltry mortals and immortals. They're all going to be his in the end anyway.
And yeah, I'm doubting Samuel was in heaven. We only have his word to go on in that regard, but either way I don't see why the Crossroad Demons wouldn't be able to do it. Their powers clearly tap into something beyond what other demons access. They're more like a magic genie than the djinn are. Make a wish, give up your soul of your own free will, and badda-pow.
Anyway, like I said, I have jack all to back this up. It's just the impression I got from the singular scene of Samuel on the phone. Crowley's the only one who really makes any sense for bringing both of them back without introducing something completely out of left field. And while season 5 was written to be the finale, it seems clear to me that Crowley still had plans in the work.
The only other option I see is Death himself. But he seems to blatantly annoyed with Earth that I don't think he gave a damn once Sam and Dean took care of Lucifer for him. I doubt he'd put much effort into... well, anything... dealing with those paltry mortals and immortals. They're all going to be his in the end anyway.
Checkmate
I do agree that (one we know Crowley will be appearing) free will does have to be involved. But my point is that if the CRD are all powerful in regards to being able to make a contract then certainly Crowley would have found someone on earth who wanted Lucifer back in his cage (heck Bobby would have, I mean seriously why make a deal for Death's location would you could deal with Lucifer back in his cage), certainly both would have been in favor of it.
To me that just screams there are some things that are beyond them.
What those limits might be....
Oh and I wouldn't count Death out. As he did say to Dean to let Sam die and not to try and do anything. Well Dean out and out admits that he absolutely tried to release Sam.... But on a thematic level Dean and Sam (and Earth) would be rather unimportant in Death's view.
I do agree that (one we know Crowley will be appearing) free will does have to be involved. But my point is that if the CRD are all powerful in regards to being able to make a contract then certainly Crowley would have found someone on earth who wanted Lucifer back in his cage (heck Bobby would have, I mean seriously why make a deal for Death's location would you could deal with Lucifer back in his cage), certainly both would have been in favor of it.
To me that just screams there are some things that are beyond them.
What those limits might be....
Oh and I wouldn't count Death out. As he did say to Dean to let Sam die and not to try and do anything. Well Dean out and out admits that he absolutely tried to release Sam.... But on a thematic level Dean and Sam (and Earth) would be rather unimportant in Death's view.
Checkmate
Commodore
If I had to guess, I'd wager that the deals have to directly involve the person making them and/or dealing with other free willed humans. That would explain why he could have made a deal to bring Sam back (sans Lucy), while leaving Lucifer trapped in the cage. But yeah, it does sound like a hard pill to swallow. I just can't think of any other viable options. I mean, if Sam could escape the cage, why couldn't Lucifer, Michael, or Adam? Sam setting up a deal with Crowley before he gets possessed is the only out I can think of.
What makes you think that sam excaped his cage.... I got the impression that or maybe it was just wishful thinking.... but... I got the impression that god let sam out of that cage... albeit surreptitiously.... only he would really care... and would have the power to just doit...
^That was always my first guess. As I saw that God was testing not only the Angels (who failed) but humanity by proxy of Sam and Dean. Lucifer and Michael failed thus I could see God leaving them down in the Pit. But Sam and Dean actually passed the test. But both made mistakes as well, thus I can see God letting them both suffer a bit. For example while Sam wasn't in hell as long as Dean (I assume the Pitt and Hell have the same slower passage of time 1 month equals one decade in hell), even if Sam was released a week after wards that would still be 4 years stuck int eh deepest part of the Pit.
Heck one day equals equals a little over 12 days. So even a shorter stay (especially if Lucifer and Michael are focused on you instead of each other) is not going to be pleasant at all.
Heck one day equals equals a little over 12 days. So even a shorter stay (especially if Lucifer and Michael are focused on you instead of each other) is not going to be pleasant at all.
Checkmate
Commodore
Note that there's no sign of Adam either. I seriously doubt God let Sam out, especially with Samuel showing up out of nowhere at around the same time, too. God also didn't save Dean; he just brought Castiel back as both a reward for being the only real servant of Heaven seen on the show, and as a replacement for Michael. It was Castiel that healed Dean.
Soem points.
Interesting about Adam. Adam was told his spirit would be with his mother in her Heaven. When Michael takes over Adam is it on Earth, Heaven or in between, I always took it to be at the very least the waiting room, but pure opinion there. As such when Michael confronts Lucifer he says Adam isn't here. That could mean two things. that Adam is in heaven. Or that Michael has shunt away Adam's consciousness so that he isn't aware of the events happening (we know demons and angels can do this).
So in one possibility Adam's spirit would be trapped as well in the Pitt, the other its just an empty shell that Michael would have abandoned once in the Pitt.
If Adam's spirit was there, (and if God is the reason Sam is freed) would God reward Adam for giving in to Michael? I doubt it, seriously doubt it. And if he did I think it would be to put him with his mother.
Yes God brought Castiel back, but if that was his plan wouldn't that plan also take into account that Castiel would heal Dean? I would hope that God would know what Castiel would do in a situation like that.
As I also believed that Castiel was tested by God, and that he was the only angel we saw that passed and that is more proof of a reward being given for passing. As Castiel like both boys also failed previously. But I think Castiel's punishment was earlier in being stripped of who and what it was.
And Dean's punishment wasn't being hurt, but having to live. Something previously he wasn't able to do.
All of course my opinion with what little we have to work with. As more details come out of course my opinion will probably change dramatically.
Checkmate
Commodore
Castiel doesn't have free will.
That said, the reason I don't like the God solution is because, well, it's lame and boring. "God did it" is right up there with "a wizard did it." Pure handwaving for the sake of handwaving. There's clearly something going on with Sam's return, and just having him show up and assuming God did it doesn't really fit and makes for a real snoozefest.
That said, the reason I don't like the God solution is because, well, it's lame and boring. "God did it" is right up there with "a wizard did it." Pure handwaving for the sake of handwaving. There's clearly something going on with Sam's return, and just having him show up and assuming God did it doesn't really fit and makes for a real snoozefest.
I disagree. A lot of great SF/F revolves around what God is willing to do and why. Supernatural is no exception.
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