Supernatural 5x5 "Fallen Idols" discussion thread spoilerish

[Dorian Thompson]

space promo and sneak peeks

That's the home page of a girl who's linked the promos. I have to admit, Ms. Hilton is a lot better than I thought she'd be.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Oh man, it's storming here in Oklahoma City. If my power goes out on a night where I'm actually home to watch I'm gonna have a fit.

So, the fandom is buzzing about Kristin at E!'s spoiler about later in the season. I won't post it here because it's too spoilery. If you want it, you gotta go find it.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

What other show can boast that they featured the decapitation of Paris Hilton with an axe, nice and bloody?

A surprisingly effective little stand alone eppy, and the pagan god was right. What is wrong with a society that would idolize vacant celebrity? Dude, Paris Hilton was wailing on you. Say what you want about Paris; she had enough of a sense of humor to play the part.

And Sam actually said it--it won't work if we aren't on equal footing. We'll be exactly the way we were. And Sam does know that Dean broke the first seal. I like it. They were simple and straightforward with each other for a change. I really liked it. Mo Ryan from the Chicago Tribune is right: this show does everything right about character development that Heroes did wrong.

Man--that must be the trickster throwing them into "I Survived a Japanese game show" in a future ep from the soon reel. There's a new episode next week, though. It's about the child Castiel wants them to kill.

 

[Taylirious]

This is the only show that can work in Paris Hilton and it not be lame...well done.



S.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I wasn't spoiled on PH and didn't notice in the credits but I had no doubt she'd show up as soon as her name was mentioned. Still fun though. And how wrong is Gandhi!

Good to see Paul McGillion as well.

The "coming soon" stuff looks interesting.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

There were two posters at TWOP who were mega PC offended about the Ghandi references. Spare me. They couldn't believe the writers would make fun of him as a small brown man in diapers.

Too bad I got banned, because I wanted to scream, "No, but Dean sure would." That's the character. He's un-PC as hell. But he's still Saint Dean to them. The Dean vs. Sam wars have started over there again full throttle. Sam didn't apologize enough. He wasn't sincere enough. How dare he say Dean drove him to Ruby because he didn't want to be the little brother? Nothing but Sam falling chest first on to his sword and Dean being worshipped is enough for those crazies. And they wonder why Kripke creates crazy fans in his universe.

I found it refreshing that they talked without the angst and the bullshit myself, but that's just me. Dean's a great brother, but he's bossy as hell. It's not one brother with flaws and one who's a saint.

 

[mswood]

I was so unimpressed by this episode. Nothing really connected with me. It wasn't that I thought it was bad, just bland.

As for the continuing story of Dean and Sam, while I was pleased to see that several of my points (that Dean actually started this mess, that Sam didn't intend to start the end of Days by killing Lilith, just as Dean didn't plan to start those events by selling his soul), but I hated how they handled it.

Out of the blue Dean realizes that he is just as guilty as Sam. Sorry but why did he suddenly realize this? All we have seen is his harping on his brother , we have seen no doubt about his own role.

There should have been a catalyst and I don't think Sam telling Dean one of the reasons he went with Ruby was to be empowered away from Dean is going to cut it. Because Dean already new part of what happened to Sam (especially towards the end was the power), that isn't something new.

It didn't feel like a legitimate revelation. It felt tacked on. I really didn't care for those that scene (I loved Sam walking in on Dean, and I love how Dean treated Sam (both I found very believable). But I think it really should have taken Sam (or Bobby or even Castiel, as they both know what started it) truly telling Dean what he did. Where was Sam telling Dean you were the one consorting with demons long before I ever did (in fact Dean is the very reason he did in the first place). that it was Dean's meddling that started the chain of events that they had control over. Not Sam.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

That surprises me. I thought you would be thrilled with it. Dean realized it because Sam told him and he listened for a change. What "catalyst" was needed? The apocalypse and everything that's happened is the catalyst. Sam finally manning up and telling him straightforward is the catalyst.

Man, I dare you to stroll over to TWOP and say that about Dean starting the whole process. You'd start a riot over there.

 

[mswood]

But Dorian

Sam didn't tell Dean he started it. That didn't happen. Sam told Dean that one of the reasons he stayed with Ruby was to get a sense of empowerment.

But that was long after Dean started the chain of events that the boys had an ability to control (Obviously neither of them could prevent YED from putting his seed in Sam, that's sounds so dirty).

Dean started it when he sold his soul to bring Sam back, after Sam had managed to stay true to himself and not sink to murder for YED.

Even before Dean went to hell and broke the first seal, Sam's only reason for interacting with a demon was because he was told he could Save Dean. To save Dean from his own choice to use demonic means for his own ends. That was Dean. Demons didn't seek him out, he sought them.

Hell by the time Sam started to actually seek out his own power, Dean was already in hell (we don't know when exactly the seal was broken, in comparison to when Sam started gaining abilities, but I would hazard a guess that Ruby reappeared to Sam right after Dean picked up the knife.

Sam never once addressed the issue of what got them into this mess. not once.

I just can't see with what little Sam, said could lead Dean to realize mistakes he made that were two years prior to the events of what Sam was talking about.

This is the person who was been seriously down on his brother for quite a little bit of time. I just don't buy it at all. It didn't feel organic to the character or situation.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

I hear what you're saying. I think the reason it felt organic to me was the straightforwardness of it. Sam wasn't talking in anger. "Stop bossing me around!" There was no sense of little brother protest in it this time.

I never felt like I had any power. Simple and straightforward. Sometimes that's all it takes to make someone finally hear you. The way you say it. After what Dean experienced last week, it makes sense (to me) that Dean's experiences, combined with Sam talking to him like a grown up, helped him to get to a place where he was finally ready to truly listen.

 

[Checkmate]

There were two posters at TWOP who were mega PC offended about the Ghandi references. Spare me. They couldn't believe the writers would make fun of him as a small brown man in diapers.

I think that was kind of the entire point of the episode. It was all about how mankind has gone from being a spiritual people to blind idolists. Whether your idol is someone great like Ghandi or some vapid nobody like Paris Hilton, it's still idolatry.

Considering that was one of God's big no-nos, and this season is effectively all about God, well... I don't think we should be overlooking any of that.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

That's a little too deep for the TWOP people, checkmate, in spite of how much they pat themselves on the back for being so brilliant. They watch it to worship Dean (and a small percentage Sam) and keep score on whether the writers are being deferential enough to their chosen brother. I promise you, the idolatry message was beyond lost on them. It's all about keeping score which Winchester brother is better liked, better portrayed, gets more screentime, apologizes more, etc. etc.....and to run a PC check.

 

[species5618]

Say what you want about Paris; she had enough of a sense of humor to play the part.

Agreed. Personally I stand any of her 'work' but she was a good sport, particularly the line about 'tiny dogs and spray on tans.' When I heard she was guest starring in an episode I was worried--it sounded like bad stunt casting, but the writers pulled it off because in her scene they were criticizing blind adoration and worship of people like, well, Paris Hilton (among others).

Overall I felt the episode was good, not great. There were some inspired moments (Gandhi attacking Sam and Paris Hilton's decapitation for example) but it felt sort of like a sort of generic 'monster of the week' episode--though I guess that may have been intended in that the idea (as Dean put it) was to sort of get back to basics, reconcile, and not focus on killing Lucifer.

Castiel was missed, though I get why he wasn't around...it was a Sam and Dean bonding episode. The 'Soon' trailer seemed to waver between high-octane drama and wacky hilariousness.

 

[Othello]

While Hilton was actually pretty decent it was an average episode at best. I also must say that the preview for later in the season left me VERY underwhelmed. It looked like a LOT of gimmicky type crap which is fine in doses but it seems they are going to go overboard with it this year.

 

[Othello]

I was so unimpressed by this episode. Nothing really connected with me. It wasn't that I thought it was bad, just bland.

As for the continuing story of Dean and Sam, while I was pleased to see that several of my points (that Dean actually started this mess, that Sam didn't intend to start the end of Days by killing Lilith, just as Dean didn't plan to start those events by selling his soul), but I hated how they handled it.

Out of the blue Dean realizes that he is just as guilty as Sam. Sorry but why did he suddenly realize this? All we have seen is his harping on his brother , we have seen no doubt about his own role.

There should have been a catalyst and I don't think Sam telling Dean one of the reasons he went with Ruby was to be empowered away from Dean is going to cut it. Because Dean already new part of what happened to Sam (especially towards the end was the power), that isn't something new.

It didn't feel like a legitimate revelation. It felt tacked on. I really didn't care for those that scene (I loved Sam walking in on Dean, and I love how Dean treated Sam (both I found very believable). But I think it really should have taken Sam (or Bobby or even Castiel, as they both know what started it) truly telling Dean what he did. Where was Sam telling Dean you were the one consorting with demons long before I ever did (in fact Dean is the very reason he did in the first place). that it was Dean's meddling that started the chain of events that they had control over. Not Sam.

Yup. As you know I am a much bigger fan of Sam than Dean and I was annoyed as hell by the "resolution" to their rift. Really lame and made zero sense. While I like Sam better it makes zero sense for Dean to change on a dime basically. It doesn't gibe with his character and I LIKE that side even if it pisses me off and makes me like Sam better.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Othello,

No no no no. There's going to be plenty of dark, dire, and angst to go around this season. Most of the clips you saw were from two specific episodes. That's pretty much going to be the quota for the rest of the season for funny. Tune in next week if you want something unfunny. Castiel's demaning something pretty gruesome from the brothers.

As for this week, I continue to be puzzled that some are viewing what happened as a resolution. It wasn't the end of the reconciliation story by any stretch. It wasn't a quick fix. It was a step forward. It wasn't the end of the story.

 

[KeepOnTrekking]

I saw this one as an average episode going back to the urban legend type shows that they did in season 1.

I do agree with Dorian about Dean's change in attitude towards Sam. Call me crazy, but it actually clicked for me. Last week, Dean's saw the "future" according to Zack and how nothing was able to stop Lucifer from getting the best of Sam. I liked what someone else said about Dean walking away about the "forgiveness" lesson after going thru Zack's little adventure. Forgiveness opens up a lot of power when it comes to applying faith. The "a-ha" moment of this week's episode was when Sam hands Dean the next key to the big apocalypse problem by telling Dean that nothing's going to change between them if they don't work as equals. I believe that this key in concert with Zack's key last week is what motivated Dean's sudden change in attitude. Nothing Sam and Dean has done so far has worked...it's only opened up the next seal. The Colt may not kill Lucifer. The "future" wasn't too bright looking. I think some of those little discussions with Castiel are starting to rub off on Dean. Dean decided it's time to take a different take on this whole b*tch and start trying something different...maybe even out of character from the enemy's p.o.v.. Well see.

 

[species5618]

The next episode looks pretty grim to me...Castiel wants the brothers to kill a child? That's what parts of the 'Soon' trailer looked like to me...

I work at a company that runs 5 tv stations, 2 of which air first-run Supernatural episodes...we get early copies of the episodes (5x06 is sitting on a shelf right now on Digital Betacam) and I am super tempted to take a peek at it.

The only catch is the audio is all unmixed (for the editors to cut promos from), so the dialogue, music and sound effects are all on separate channels and you can only hear one at a time, which doesn't make for the most enjoyable viewing experience. I was pretty excited the first time I saw one of those tapes...until I started playing it and realized how it was set up.

 

[startrekwatcher]

This was fairly decent in the sense it held my attention well enough and was pleasant but certainly not really compelling nor am I in any real hurry to watch it again.

The supernatural plot wasn't anything special but I've learned to accept the show won't come up with very clever plots or monsters of the week. If you watched X-Files, Twilight Zone, Friday the 13th The Series then you've pretty much seen all the best kind of creatures/monsters/supernatural plots of the week. Fringe has this problem too. So the writers need to find a new spin on them if it is going to get my attention.

The jeopardy wasn't really there so it was all pretty standard fare.

I can't stand Hilton so casting her as a vile creature was perfection. The character scenes were passable but nothing worth really talking about specifically.

A pretty middle of the road offering. I definitely liked last season better.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

The next episode looks pretty grim to me...Castiel wants the brothers to kill a child?

Yes, he does.

Fringe has this problem too.

Yeah, I've heard that, too.

Fringe and Supernatural are slowly killing one another in the ratings. Erosion bit by bit with two genre shows in the same time slot with the heavy hitters. SPN is still hovering around 2.5 million with a slightly higher female demo than last year, and Fringe dropped to 5.8 million with a 2.1 in adults 18-49 in final ratings from last night. That demo is dangerous territory on FOX.