Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoilerish

[LeahBoBo]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Castiel, like the other angels, were created without free will. All they've known is to obey for far longer than humanity has existed. Any sign of him going against that is monstrous. Especially since he -- unlike most of the other angels we've been exposed to -- goes against his orders for the benefit of humanity and what he truly believes to be God's true will. Whereas most of the other angels who have begun to doubt God's existence (or know of His absence, in the case of the higher-ups like Zachariah) have taken to doing great evils instead.

I don't think you appreciate just how much means from Castiel. I really don't. There's a reason God has chosen him as his new right hand.

And yes, if God were to show up tomorrow and tell him to slaughter millions, he most likely would. And he would do so gladly, because he would know that is God's will and that His will supercedes all things. And God has apparently done that in the past. The Great Flood, the plagues, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. Are you going to chastise the angels that performed those commands for Him?

The thing is... nothing that's been going on in the show has truly been God's will. And Castiel has finally seen that. Not only that, but he has a front row seat at God's throne and truly is doing His will now. There is no question. There is no blind faith required (he had that in spades regardless). He knows that he follows His orders now... and he knows that He disapproves of everything Zachariah has been doing.

Will he do what God commands? Definitely. Will God order him to allow millions to die? Obviously not. Is it fair to judge Castiel for following God's commands? I'd say no, unless you wish to believe that God doesn't have humanity's best interest in mind.

The only real question is where has God been all this time, and why did it take Lucifer's rising to bring him out of his tupor?

Good points. Plus, the idea of puny humankind passing judgment on angels is so ludicrous I can't stop

 

[LeahBoBo]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

We aren't going to see Bela 2.0. The season's storyline has already been mapped out.

I rather liked Bela. She was a rather tragic figure actually. Had a MUCH rougher upbringing as a child than Dean and Sam. She had the absolute scum of the earth for parents and had Lillith take advantage of her as a child with that deal. Doomed to go to hell in ten years in your early teens cause a demon took advantage of a child with scum of the earth parents. Now that's truly evil and quite tragic. Personally I think people didn't like her because she made the brothers look like fools quite often, and given her background that makes all the sense in the world. I think most people were whining very much unnecessarily about her. Also, having a regular person that was somewhat of a nemesis for Dean and Sam was good IMHO.

Waah. Waah. Waah. Cry me a river. I didn't like Bela because she was a stuck-up, snotty, opportunistic bitch. She did add an element of organic humor, though. That said, I liked Katie Cassidy's Ruby much better.

 

[LeahBoBo]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

In real life, Jared has what is, IMO, the more engaging personality of the two. He's so outgoing while Jensen's the reserved one.

Nothing wrong with reserved. I like that in a person.

Women have actually groped them during photo ops at cons to the point where they had to start limiting them.

That is rude and crossing the line. What is wrong with people? And better Jared/Jensen than me, because I'd slap some one felt me up, fan or not.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Castiel, like the other angels, were created without free will. All they've known is to obey for far longer than humanity has existed. Any sign of him going against that is monstrous. Especially since he -- unlike most of the other angels we've been exposed to -- goes against his orders for the benefit of humanity and what he truly believes to be God's true will. Whereas most of the other angels who have begun to doubt God's existence (or know of His absence, in the case of the higher-ups like Zachariah) have taken to doing great evils instead.

I don't think you appreciate just how much means from Castiel. I really don't. There's a reason God has chosen him as his new right hand.

And yes, if God were to show up tomorrow and tell him to slaughter millions, he most likely would. And he would do so gladly, because he would know that is God's will and that His will supercedes all things. And God has apparently done that in the past. The Great Flood, the plagues, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. Are you going to chastise the angels that performed those commands for Him?

The thing is... nothing that's been going on in the show has truly been God's will. And Castiel has finally seen that. Not only that, but he has a front row seat at God's throne and truly is doing His will now. There is no question. There is no blind faith required (he had that in spades regardless). He knows that he follows His orders now... and he knows that He disapproves of everything Zachariah has been doing.

Will he do what God commands? Definitely. Will God order him to allow millions to die? Obviously not. Is it fair to judge Castiel for following God's commands? I'd say no, unless you wish to believe that God doesn't have humanity's best interest in mind.

The only real question is where has God been all this time, and why did it take Lucifer's rising to bring him out of his tupor?

Good points. Plus, the idea of puny humankind passing judgment on angels is so ludicrous I can't stop

No more so then any of the human characters judging the Demons.

Since the story is about humans though, they will tend to tell stories with the moral point being seen through human eyes.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Leah Bobo

I disagree with this. I don't think Dean ever took Heaven's side over Sam; Sam was always his main priority. Dean didn't swear service to Heaven until the 21st episode and that was to prevent Sam from becoming the monster he'd have to become in order to kill Lilith.

Dean from the 4th episode, took the Angels side over Sam (with one real exception and that was the two parter with Anna). Now you can argue that he took that side for 3 reasons.

1. Of course to save guard Sam (both a selfish and a selfless reason, he doesn't want to leave if Sam is dead and he also fears Sam losing himself).
2. Dean doesn't want hell on Earth, he's been there didn't like it.
3. He has been threatened with being sent back down to the Pit (more then once) and he really isn't up to that.

But he still took the Angel's world view over the one Sam was taking.

Sam also took Ruby's side over Dean's view. And he also had several different motivations for doing so.

1. The power to save his brother (even before it became an addiction). Something he feels terrible guilt over from season 3.
2. Vengeance against Lilith, for what she did to Dean (and how that hurt him).
3. His fear that Dean isn't able to stop Lilith (hell even Chuck the Prophet thought that was how it was going to play out, that Sam would be the one to stop her).

Both took different sides in this, and remember Dean took by all appearances all the side of the angels (well to the best of his ability all but Uriel). While Sam took Ruby's side, not the side of the demon's as a whole.

You might think Sam was a Putz, but you have to logically look at all the evidence that both characters had.

Through two years Ruby has done nothing but asset the brothers. She's been attacked by Lilith, tortured by another, and attacked by many. She openly obeys Sam. And two the best of their knowledge has caused no harm to others. And sure he knows he is feeding the demon blood within his own system, but until the very end he is saving humans left and right. And as for losing himself, the boy was already trying to deal to sell his own soul, tried to physically open the devil's gate to try and free Dean. So he was already just as willing as Dean and John to loose his soul.
On Dean's front, all through his season long battle with Sam, he has shied away from confronting Lilith (even though the angels have told him that he will stop her), they have lied and manipulated him (and he knows this, it isn't a gut reaction or fear of the possibility). And thats even before he gets to the big lies.

To the very end Sam is told that Lilith must be stopped (hell even by Heaven, who wants him to do it as well). The only one telling him no is Dean (and perhaps towards the end Bobby). He knows that so far if he hadn't used his abilities one town would be destroyed by angel's already, that Dean would be Dead (oh several times to date).

Dean wasn't worried about Sam freeing Lucifer, just turning evil.

I mean if Sam was told the truth (even deep in his addiction) to you seriously think he would have killed Lilith? He thought he was saving the world (in fact all the evidence was there supporting that, from both sides).

Disagree again. Sam stopping Lilith broke the final seal and allowed Lucifer to escape; hardly a win/win for Planet Earth. If Dean had prevented Sam killing Queen Skank, the final seal would have held. It's not clear to me if anyone killing Lilith would have broken the seal or only Sam. I'm sorry, but Sam is the putz going into this season. He was seduced by his evil power and Ruby the skank whispering in his ear that he was the chosen one. He had to do it. His brain should have kicked in eons ago to ask a very simple question: why is a demon on the right side?

Yes Sam broke the last seal. Was that his intent? No it wasn't. Was it Dean's intent to break the first seal when he made a deal with a demon? No it wasn't. I would say it had to be Sam. If it didn't need to be Sam then the Angels wouldn't have manipulated him to do just that, they would have done it themselves. After all Lilith was afraid of Archangels, so I think its very possible that they could have managed it. Yes he was seduced by the demon blood, but just like he always used his visions for good, Sam also always used his abilities for good. As to why a demon would be on teh side of right. Well look at that argument, it this manner, why would the angels be on the side of wrong? Why can they (Dean and Sam) see that Angels can do what humans would call evil things? Does that not mean that all angels aren't good. And wouldn't that reverse also be true that all demons aren't evil. after all even though Sam was taught very early that all supernatural things are evil, he has learned that isn't the truth. They have meet spirits that have been good, they have meet monsters that aren't evil. Why then is it so hard to except that Ruby might be on the up and up. And clearly he didn't trust her, but over two years time she never once did anything (he was aware of) that was bad. Hell in 6 months that he knew the angels he couldn't say that about them.

 

[LeahBoBo]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Leah Bobo

I disagree with this. I don't think Dean ever took Heaven's side over Sam; Sam was always his main priority. Dean didn't swear service to Heaven until the 21st episode and that was to prevent Sam from becoming the monster he'd have to become in order to kill Lilith.

Dean from the 4th episode, took the Angels side over Sam (with one real exception and that was the two parter with Anna). Now you can argue that he took that side for 3 reasons.

I am not buying any of your explanations regarding Dean's relationship with the angels because Dean rebelled against Castiel every step of the way. He was hardly in awe or appreciative and seemed to take everything he was told with a grain of salt. I hardly classify his behavior as taking the angels' side. The most I will go along with is that he agreed with the angels' POV in regard to what needed to be done to stop Lilith, but that's it.

Whatever Sam's motivations were for accepting Ruby so completely doesn't excuse him or his behavior, which became increasingly sneaky, reckless, arrogant and inhuman as the season wore on. He never confided in Dean and kept all of his and Ruby's dirty little secrets until they couldn't be hidden any more. If I remember correctly, Chuck the Prophet told Sam he thought Dean was supposed to stop Lilith, so I think you might be confused on that.

The bottom line here is that Sam believed a "black-eyed skank" over his brother and look where that got him. I don't care if Ruby was saying prayers to Heaven every night, she can't go against her DEMONIC nature and to think otherwise is bat shit crazy. Dean never trusted her. Were you surprised when Ruby outted herself? 'Cause I sure as hell wasn't.

As to why a demon would be on teh side of right. Well look at that argument, it this manner, why would the angels be on the side of wrong?

Personally, I would find it harder to think an angel would be manipulating and using humans for underhanded reasons than a demon. That said, the angels in this universe seem to be operating under the assumption that the world is ready for an enema, and they are not opposed to giving it one. I have never read or seen anything that said demons had any ounce of goodness in them or mankind's best interest at heart, so your question doesn't make any sense to me. Neither does your comment that these boys have met "good" monsters. They've met a few vampires who decided it was in their best interest not to snack on humans, but I'm not remembering a parade of creatures of the night who were really warm and fuzzy friends of humans in Sam and Dean's world.

 

[LeahBoBo]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Castiel, like the other angels, were created without free will. All they've known is to obey for far longer than humanity has existed. Any sign of him going against that is monstrous. Especially since he -- unlike most of the other angels we've been exposed to -- goes against his orders for the benefit of humanity and what he truly believes to be God's true will. Whereas most of the other angels who have begun to doubt God's existence (or know of His absence, in the case of the higher-ups like Zachariah) have taken to doing great evils instead.

I don't think you appreciate just how much means from Castiel. I really don't. There's a reason God has chosen him as his new right hand.

And yes, if God were to show up tomorrow and tell him to slaughter millions, he most likely would. And he would do so gladly, because he would know that is God's will and that His will supercedes all things. And God has apparently done that in the past. The Great Flood, the plagues, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. Are you going to chastise the angels that performed those commands for Him?

The thing is... nothing that's been going on in the show has truly been God's will. And Castiel has finally seen that. Not only that, but he has a front row seat at God's throne and truly is doing His will now. There is no question. There is no blind faith required (he had that in spades regardless). He knows that he follows His orders now... and he knows that He disapproves of everything Zachariah has been doing.

Will he do what God commands? Definitely. Will God order him to allow millions to die? Obviously not. Is it fair to judge Castiel for following God's commands? I'd say no, unless you wish to believe that God doesn't have humanity's best interest in mind.

The only real question is where has God been all this time, and why did it take Lucifer's rising to bring him out of his tupor?

Good points. Plus, the idea of puny humankind passing judgment on angels is so ludicrous I can't stop

No more so then any of the human characters judging the Demons.

Demons and angels are not the same. The average person thinks angels watch over them. They think demons possess you and make you throw up pea soup while turning your head around so you can see your ass.

Since the story is about humans though, they will tend to tell stories with the moral point being seen through human eyes.

That is true. But I will continue to see the bigger picture.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Personally, I would find it harder to think an angel would be manipulating and using humans for underhanded reasons than a demon. That said, the angels in this universe seem to be operating under the assumption that the world is ready for an enema, and they are not opposed to giving it one. I have never read or seen anything that said demons had any ounce of goodness in them or mankind's best interest at heart, so your question doesn't make any sense to me.

How about their father? He's a demon. Yet it was pretty explicitly stated that he never once gave in to the demons manipulations and torture, and that's why they needed Dean to take his place. He's free from hell now, so is he slaughtering people as well now? Is he evil?

 

[LeahBoBo]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Personally, I would find it harder to think an angel would be manipulating and using humans for underhanded reasons than a demon. That said, the angels in this universe seem to be operating under the assumption that the world is ready for an enema, and they are not opposed to giving it one. I have never read or seen anything that said demons had any ounce of goodness in them or mankind's best interest at heart, so your question doesn't make any sense to me.

How about their father? He's a demon. Yet it was pretty explicitly stated that he never once gave in to the demons manipulations and torture, and that's why they needed Dean to take his place. He's free from hell now, so is he slaughtering people as well now? Is he evil?

What are you talking about? If you're referring to John, there is no evidence that he became a demon, but there is evidence to the contrary. John did not torture other hellbound souls, he managed to escape hell when the gate opened and caused a diversion to give his embattled son a chance to regroup. The golden light he dissolved into indicated to me that he moved on to a better place after all his suffering.

 

[Aragorn]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

So Fox moved Fringe to.... Thursday nights at 9 p.m. So I'll have to say bye bye Supernatural threads (of course, I still haven't seen like 75 of the show's episodes anyway).

 

[3D Master]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Personally, I would find it harder to think an angel would be manipulating and using humans for underhanded reasons than a demon. That said, the angels in this universe seem to be operating under the assumption that the world is ready for an enema, and they are not opposed to giving it one. I have never read or seen anything that said demons had any ounce of goodness in them or mankind's best interest at heart, so your question doesn't make any sense to me.

How about their father? He's a demon. Yet it was pretty explicitly stated that he never once gave in to the demons manipulations and torture, and that's why they needed Dean to take his place. He's free from hell now, so is he slaughtering people as well now? Is he evil?

What are you talking about? If you're referring to John, there is no evidence that he became a demon, but there is evidence to the contrary. John did not torture other hellbound souls, he managed to escape hell when the gate opened and caused a diversion to give his embattled son a chance to regroup. The golden light he dissolved into indicated to me that he moved on to a better place after all his suffering.

Everyone who goes to hell becomes a demon, that was the rule. John went to hell, so he became a demon. Whether he did or did not torture souls doesn't matter. And he didn't dissolve into a golden light, he just vanished, like all demons are capable of.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

How about their father? He's a demon. Yet it was pretty explicitly stated that he never once gave in to the demons manipulations and torture, and that's why they needed Dean to take his place. He's free from hell now, so is he slaughtering people as well now? Is he evil?

What are you talking about? If you're referring to John, there is no evidence that he became a demon, but there is evidence to the contrary. John did not torture other hellbound souls, he managed to escape hell when the gate opened and caused a diversion to give his embattled son a chance to regroup. The golden light he dissolved into indicated to me that he moved on to a better place after all his suffering.

Everyone who goes to hell becomes a demon, that was the rule. John went to hell, so he became a demon. Whether he did or did not torture souls doesn't matter. And he didn't dissolve into a golden light, he just vanished, like all demons are capable of.

They become demons over a period of centuries, it's not an instantaneous transformation. If Samuel Colt's Devil's Trap hadn't been unlocked, then yes, John would have eventually become a demon, but he wasn't there long enough.

 

[Worf2DS9]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Finally getting the season premiere here in Canada tonight. Saw the promo on SPACE last night and it looked great. Can't wait!

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Leah Bobo

I disagree with this. I don't think Dean ever took Heaven's side over Sam; Sam was always his main priority. Dean didn't swear service to Heaven until the 21st episode and that was to prevent Sam from becoming the monster he'd have to become in order to kill Lilith.

Dean from the 4th episode, took the Angels side over Sam (with one real exception and that was the two parter with Anna). Now you can argue that he took that side for 3 reasons.

I am not buying any of your explanations regarding Dean's relationship with the angels because Dean rebelled against Castiel every step of the way. He was hardly in awe or appreciative and seemed to take everything he was told with a grain of salt. I hardly classify his behavior as taking the angels' side. The most I will go along with is that he agreed with the angels' POV in regard to what needed to be done to stop Lilith, but that's it.

Whatever Sam's motivations were for accepting Ruby so completely doesn't excuse him or his behavior, which became increasingly sneaky, reckless, arrogant and inhuman as the season wore on. He never confided in Dean and kept all of his and Ruby's dirty little secrets until they couldn't be hidden any more. If I remember correctly, Chuck the Prophet told Sam he thought Dean was supposed to stop Lilith, so I think you might be confused on that.

The bottom line here is that Sam believed a "black-eyed skank" over his brother and look where that got him. I don't care if Ruby was saying prayers to Heaven every night, she can't go against her DEMONIC nature and to think otherwise is bat shit crazy. Dean never trusted her. Were you surprised when Ruby outted herself? 'Cause I sure as hell wasn't.

As to why a demon would be on teh side of right. Well look at that argument, it this manner, why would the angels be on the side of wrong?

Personally, I would find it harder to think an angel would be manipulating and using humans for underhanded reasons than a demon. That said, the angels in this universe seem to be operating under the assumption that the world is ready for an enema, and they are not opposed to giving it one. I have never read or seen anything that said demons had any ounce of goodness in them or mankind's best interest at heart, so your question doesn't make any sense to me. Neither does your comment that these boys have met "good" monsters. They've met a few vampires who decided it was in their best interest not to snack on humans, but I'm not remembering a parade of creatures of the night who were really warm and fuzzy friends of humans in Sam and Dean's world.

Ok supernatural entities that weren't evil, yes several vampires, Sam found research of several of the creatures that eat flesh that never turned because they never gave in to human flesh, we have had 4 separate spirits that have assisted either the guys themselves or others to prevent harm from happening to them. And creatures like Reapers aren't evil, just performing a service. So while it is a minority it clearly shows that even though he was taught all monsters are evil. That what he was told isn't accurate. Sure most, are. But by its very definition most is not all. Sam believed in what we normally think of angels and look he found that assumption was wrong in the case of every single angel he has meet. He thinks from the get go that all demons are evil, and slowly over two years he is shown example, after example of a demon who wants nothing more then to help him. He doesn't trust her and sees her as someone to use, but after Dean dies Sam is so lost that he gets closer to Ruby. But if you notice he still doesn't truly trust her. He keeps her almost on leash.

He does agree to do what Dean wants, yet he soon is put into a place where if he doesn't use his ability a high level demon is loose and the Angels would destroy a while town. At this point he has given up the blood sucking and is staying away from Ruby. When Dean's torturer arrives, Dean has no real problem with Sam trying to stop him. Yet even at this point Sam stays away from Ruby. he does do what Dean asks of him, and this last for months. It takes him seeing two friends who end up dying, and hearing Dean talk about who he knows he isn't going to live long. We know during this time that Sam has a huge amount of hatred towards Lilith, he is almost blinded by it, but it still stays away from Ruby. When he realizes that in the long fight both him and Dean are very likely Dead at an earlier age. That motivates him to seek out Ruby. And that is good, because in just two episodes if he didn't both of them would be dead. In the very next episode, Dean would be Dead again, if Sam didn't harness those abilities. When an angel frees a demon to kill Dean. And the other angel is unable to stop said demon.

So if you think Sam was a touche and completely and totally wrong, then basically you want Dean Dead. Pure and simple he wouldn't have survived without him (and yes, because in one of those episodes, Angels weren't able to pass). So Dean is dead. So much for two brothers hunting because that story is done and over.

As for Chuck, Chuck states that "I'm sorry Sam, I know its a terrible burden, feeling that it all rests on your shoulders".

Sam asks "Does it. All rest on my shoulders ?"

Chuck responds, "That does seem to be the way the story is going".

This is ate in the season and Sam is certainly addicted at this time to the demon blood, Chuck says that he has to know that it's wrong and that maybe one of the reason Sam is doing it is to feel strong and in control. Which is certainly part of it.

But even at this point Sam is asking the one person who has a view of the future and sees everything they have done, if he in fact is the one who needs to stop Lilith.

And Chuck to the best of his knowledge confirms that. When Chuck learns that isn't true he isn't allowed to inform them.

As for Dean, he never tries to take Sam's point of view, with one exception. In a last ditch effort in the penultimate episode he finally overs to go off with Sam and go after Lilith. And by this time their is no question that Sam is addicted and his judgment is screwed up.

Yes he lied to Dean, but lying is something both have done to each other, with Dean usually be the worse of the two.

With seals breaking left and right, Bobby even wonders if Sam should be let out to stop Lilith. We find out in that episode that Bobby, Dean and Sam think the worst that happens is Sam dies or turns evil, but all of them think he can actually stop Lilith. Dean is the only one who think that it's not worth losing Sam.

 

[Agent Richard07]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

2. MEg. Sorry didn't get the feeling of this demon being Meg. Not that the performance was boring, it just didn't seem to match her snark and behaviors we have seen when she's really cut loose (Born Under a Bad Sign, Shadow, Salvation and Devil's Trap).

I was too distracted by the fact that I was looking at Macaulay Culkin's ex wife for the first time in almost a decade.

 

[Aragorn]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Well good news for you then -- Macaulay Culkin, David Stern and Joe Pesci have been cast as the final three horsemen of the apocalypse!

 

[Othello]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Leah Bobo

I disagree with this. I don't think Dean ever took Heaven's side over Sam; Sam was always his main priority. Dean didn't swear service to Heaven until the 21st episode and that was to prevent Sam from becoming the monster he'd have to become in order to kill Lilith.

Dean from the 4th episode, took the Angels side over Sam (with one real exception and that was the two parter with Anna). Now you can argue that he took that side for 3 reasons.

1. Of course to save guard Sam (both a selfish and a selfless reason, he doesn't want to leave if Sam is dead and he also fears Sam losing himself).
2. Dean doesn't want hell on Earth, he's been there didn't like it.
3. He has been threatened with being sent back down to the Pit (more then once) and he really isn't up to that.

But he still took the Angel's world view over the one Sam was taking.

Sam also took Ruby's side over Dean's view. And he also had several different motivations for doing so.

1. The power to save his brother (even before it became an addiction). Something he feels terrible guilt over from season 3.
2. Vengeance against Lilith, for what she did to Dean (and how that hurt him).
3. His fear that Dean isn't able to stop Lilith (hell even Chuck the Prophet thought that was how it was going to play out, that Sam would be the one to stop her).

Both took different sides in this, and remember Dean took by all appearances all the side of the angels (well to the best of his ability all but Uriel). While Sam took Ruby's side, not the side of the demon's as a whole.

You might think Sam was a Putz, but you have to logically look at all the evidence that both characters had.

Through two years Ruby has done nothing but asset the brothers. She's been attacked by Lilith, tortured by another, and attacked by many. She openly obeys Sam. And two the best of their knowledge has caused no harm to others. And sure he knows he is feeding the demon blood within his own system, but until the very end he is saving humans left and right. And as for losing himself, the boy was already trying to deal to sell his own soul, tried to physically open the devil's gate to try and free Dean. So he was already just as willing as Dean and John to loose his soul.
On Dean's front, all through his season long battle with Sam, he has shied away from confronting Lilith (even though the angels have told him that he will stop her), they have lied and manipulated him (and he knows this, it isn't a gut reaction or fear of the possibility). And thats even before he gets to the big lies.

To the very end Sam is told that Lilith must be stopped (hell even by Heaven, who wants him to do it as well). The only one telling him no is Dean (and perhaps towards the end Bobby). He knows that so far if he hadn't used his abilities one town would be destroyed by angel's already, that Dean would be Dead (oh several times to date).

Dean wasn't worried about Sam freeing Lucifer, just turning evil.

I mean if Sam was told the truth (even deep in his addiction) to you seriously think he would have killed Lilith? He thought he was saving the world (in fact all the evidence was there supporting that, from both sides).

Disagree again. Sam stopping Lilith broke the final seal and allowed Lucifer to escape; hardly a win/win for Planet Earth. If Dean had prevented Sam killing Queen Skank, the final seal would have held. It's not clear to me if anyone killing Lilith would have broken the seal or only Sam. I'm sorry, but Sam is the putz going into this season. He was seduced by his evil power and Ruby the skank whispering in his ear that he was the chosen one. He had to do it. His brain should have kicked in eons ago to ask a very simple question: why is a demon on the right side?

Yes Sam broke the last seal. Was that his intent? No it wasn't. Was it Dean's intent to break the first seal when he made a deal with a demon? No it wasn't. I would say it had to be Sam. If it didn't need to be Sam then the Angels wouldn't have manipulated him to do just that, they would have done it themselves. After all Lilith was afraid of Archangels, so I think its very possible that they could have managed it. Yes he was seduced by the demon blood, but just like he always used his visions for good, Sam also always used his abilities for good. As to why a demon would be on teh side of right. Well look at that argument, it this manner, why would the angels be on the side of wrong? Why can they (Dean and Sam) see that Angels can do what humans would call evil things? Does that not mean that all angels aren't good. And wouldn't that reverse also be true that all demons aren't evil. after all even though Sam was taught very early that all supernatural things are evil, he has learned that isn't the truth. They have meet spirits that have been good, they have meet monsters that aren't evil. Why then is it so hard to except that Ruby might be on the up and up. And clearly he didn't trust her, but over two years time she never once did anything (he was aware of) that was bad. Hell in 6 months that he knew the angels he couldn't say that about them.

GREAT POST!!!!!!!

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Very articulate defense of what transpired with Sam.