Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoilerish

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

The Vampire Diaries isn't getting good word of mouth at all. Those ratings aren't going to stay above 4 million--not by a long shot.

I think they screwed uo a bit with this episide- its not what people were expecting.

They don't have the budget for epic level blood and guts. SPN's budget has been slashed every year. It's all gone to Gossip Girl, 90210 and now the Vampire Diaries.

Temis, Pellegrino as Lucifer will be featured heavily this season. No, he didn't kill Nick's family. You called it--he circled and looked for the most vulnerable potential host. You always seem to get a set up episode when you sample this show. There are episodes you've never watched that I know would appeal to you so much. The heartache will be off the charts, just as quickly followed by some of Edlund's psychotically humorous eps. Oh, when these brothers finally reconcile and reconnect it'll be glorious good angst and bromance. According to lore, Lucifer and Michael were also brothers....think about the possibilites. Michael was the one who did the actual imprisoning of his brother in the pit.

It's also a fantastic contrast to Dean. Zachariah did try to directly manipulate events and torture Dean into giving up his body to Michael, yet none of that worked. Lucifer's being all coy and seductive, using events to his benefit... and getting exactly what he's after.

That's precisely the point. It's why Dean is so special in the scheme of things. He's a human of extraordinary inner strength. I'm wondering if the characteristics of being an archangel's vessel are a whole different ballgame than the simple genetics of being a regular angel's vessel. The archangel Michael is the quintessential warrior of God. I think Zachariah did know all along. The plan was never to stop Lilith from breaking the seals. Zachariah admitted this to Dean in "Lucifer Rising." But he told Dean that he still had a role to play, that it was he would defeat Lucifer. How could Zachariah know this unless he knew that Dean is Michael's sword?

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Oh trust me, I don't think Vampire Diaries ratings will hold at all (well most shows don't for starters). And I would expect the ratings to be in the 3 millions for almost all of the fall. If thats the case, it would still be the best showing of any CW creation. And even with (I assume) lower ratings it still will probably generate a stronger adult 18-34 demo result then Smallville, let alone women 18-34. And I am quite sure that it is considerable cheaper then Smallville.

By that same token I expect us to drop below 3 million, quite possible this week though I hope that we can stay above it for a while.

And while I am quite happy getting a 5th season, if we drop to low (or even more importantly) can't hold much of that 18-34 audience, and specifically 18-34 female audience, then I fear we will be shunt away to Friday. Or and this could even be worse, have the CW push hard to have more crossover appeal.

As to the odds of Supernatural getting moved, I think it all depends.

If the CW comes to the conclusion that this truly is the end for Supernatural, then there is no reason not to try Smallville in its place. If it still sees a future for Supernatural beyond this season, then I strongly fear a very strong immediate push to make the show fit better out of Vampire Diaries.

Of course, both of those two thoughts are all based on if Vampire Diaries continues to have a stronger adult 18-34 over Smallville (and how sizable the female aspect of that demo is) and assuming Supernatural's holds on those two demo fronts is weak.

But of course, for all I know Tuesday (hell and perhaps Monday, and Wednesday) will be in such a sorry state that they will continue the strong focus there.

One of the real positives of last years ratings jump is that when you improve, teh studio tends to think hey they are doing something right lets leave them alone. The reverse, though, when you have drops, they tend to think how "they" can fix things. And we have already had some of that. I really don't want anymore.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

That's precisely the point. It's why Dean is so special in the scheme of things. He's a human of extraordinary inner strength. I'm wondering if the characteristics of being an archangel's vessel are a whole different ballgame than the simple genetics of being a regular angel's vessel. The archangel Michael is the quintessential warrior of God. I think Zachariah did know all along. The plan was never to stop Lilith from breaking the seals. Zachariah admitted this to Dean in "Lucifer Rising." But he told Dean that he still had a role to play, that it was he would defeat Lucifer. How could Zachariah know this unless he knew that Dean is Michael's sword?

Really, as much as Dean is my favorite character, I don't know if I would call him an example of someone who "is of extraordinary inner strength".

The guy has no confidence in himself, has huge self worth issues (and all of these are long before going to hell, which only compounded them). One of the things I love about Dean is how out worldly he is confident and sure of himself, but it is entirely opposite of how he feels. Even when we have seen the inner workings of his mind, they don't point to someone who has extreme inner strength.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Mswood, the CW isn't going to move Supernatural to Fridays this season just because it got a 3.39 million for its premiere. TRUST ME. You're worrying for nothing. There's no reason to move it. The network isn't going to move Smallville to Thursdays at 9 after banishing it to Fridays. They won't switch the 2 shows out if they never did it before now. Demon Dawn left SPN alone last season after insisting on the 2 female regulars for season 3. It's through interfering with Kripke. Now if they got a season six and a new showrunner when Kripke doesn't re-sign......that's a fear but hopefully unfounded. The show's ratings have gone up from the season finale. It'll be fine. We aren't going to see Bela 2.0. The season's storyline has already been mapped out.

You're right about Dean, but what I mean is that the man can still get up in the morning after the unfathomable trauma he endured--that's what makes him strong. He plows on though he feels worthless and responsible for too much.

Two great clips from "Good God, Y'all" episode 2 that you'll enjoy.

Shove it

That's the scene where Misha said Jared kept grabbing his ass when he went through the doorway to fuck with him. Sort of belies the emotional context, no?

An old friend

pick up a phone

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Dorian not to worry, I am not freaking out about the viewer totals.

But I honestly (especially with no female driven competition this week) expected a much higher performance in the female demographic. I did expect our male audience to suffer to the football game (which attracts a huge male audience, more so then almost any other form of programming). But our female demo numbers in comparison to Vampire Diaries sucked (sorry for the pun). For a show that generated an increase of nearly 100% in the female audience for us to draw on, we only had a 6% increase over last year. That, not the viewer total, is really the only bad sign for this week's ratings. I think there were three primary reasons they paired these two shows together.

1. The Supernatural element
2. I honestly think after last years performance the studio saw Supernatural as a program that could last 6 years, I don't know how they feel about paying for a 10th year of the much more expensive Smallville.
3. Previously when paired with a female driven show, Supernatural performed far, far better in the female demo groups.

Networks judge shows on two primary factors, 1 how they performed compared to the year ago (which yeah we were down, but with more competition the network should have expected that in males), and 2. How well we held our lead in's audience. And where we sucked, was the demo group that the CW cares for the most.

Now of course, thats just one week, and of course we should expect Vampire to Drop more then we do next week as they are a new show and will get sampled heavier then a show thats on its 5th year.

So basically I am just wondering at what point does it make sense to replace us with Smallville.

Though in fairness I also wonder how low does Melrose Place or 90210 have to go before Smallville might move to take over one of their slots.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

I love the Ellen clip (no surprise, she's the character I have missed the most). ANd it took me a second to wonder why all the attention to Dean and not Sam (unless of course Sam's is being an idiot and made I freed lucifer shirts and sent them to everyone he knows). But then I realized she might have not been told that Dean came back from the dead, after all she does know that he made a deal.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

So basically I am just wondering at what point does it make sense to replace us with Smallville.

Never. Seriously, Smallville isn't going to retain anymore of V-Diaries' female audience, not with Grey's still airing at the same time. Remember, Bones and Survivor are going to be head to head against VD. I can picture VDiaries fans also being Survivor fans. VD's ratings will drop considerably, and the retention numbers will look a lot better. 90210 started with real big numbers last year, and it quickly got into the low 2 millions.

When SPN was previously paired with a female oriented show, it was brand new. Season one and it was still airing on WB. The CW's nationwide coverage continues to shrink. My mother's cable company, much to her displeasure, decided to get rid of the CW on its lineup. It's a tiny market, but still....another CW affiliate lost. Dish network carries it, but Cox Cable out of Tulsa, Oklahoma dropped CW. You can't see it as a free channel.

The CW needs that ad revenue. They're not going to dump a proven performer in the Thursday night death slot for Smallville, and they're not going to move any of their female targeted shows against Grey's Anatomy. SPN is staying put.

Ditto about loving Ellen.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Oh and My God, enough with Castiel.....

Please, please only let him be in about half the episodes (and I love the character, love him). Because the one thing that was great about him was that he was used wisely last year.

Of course the fact that he was a willing participant in starting the apocalypse and consigning what they estimate at over tens of millions to their deaths, might have some small part to that.

Yeah, yeah he changed his mind. Yeah he changed his mind to late to do any good.

Seriously this is going to annoy the living hell out of me.

I mean seriously its like a lunatic turning the key to launch a nuclear strike, and after he does this realizes that it was a mistake. Of course the missiles are already lunched..... And while Dean doesn't know that Sam was freed by Castiel, he is aware that he knew what was happening and was going along with it. I just can't believe anyone would ever, and I mean ever trust that being again.

I can understand Dean working with him, because you often have to associate with people you can't trust. But sorry it truly damages Dean's character if he honestly trust this being. Because certainly Dean realizes that Castiel is doing what he thinks God would do. That's Castiel's loyalty, not Dean and not humanity.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

And I will be especially disappointed if we don't see Sam consider killing himself. I mean seriously disappointed.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Castiel wasn't happy about what he was doing. They took pains to show that, and he did turn on his own and give his life. He didn't know God would resurrect him. He stood down the archangel to let Dean go free and try to stop Sam. That's why Dean trusts him at this point. I realize what Cas has done, but he was indoctrinated for thousands of years. Him turning on the angels was a huge step. I think that can earn at least a few trust points. Does Dean know Cas let Sam loose? I don't know. Should be interesting if and when he finds out. It could raise questions of why Dean is willing to forgive Cas more easily than Sam. The answer is obvious to an objective observer. Dean loved Sam more, so the hurt was far deeper. I can see Cas as a vehicle to facilitate the rebonding of Dean and Sam.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

That is one of things I don't want them to do. I don't want Castiel to be (or be a part of) whatever helps rebuild (or build anew) the relationship of the brothers.

And yes Castiel felt bad, and yes Castiel has shown appreciation for humans (unlike some Angels) as part of God's creations.

But it doesn't change the fact that the only reason he choose to act wasn't because he felt bad about the tens of millions who would surely die, but because he doubted that it was God's will. If God came up next episode and told Castiel he better start following his superiors, do you honestly think he wouldn't? Of course Dean's feelings of betrayal from Sam are going to kill him. Family (or loved ones) can always hurt you more then other people. And lets face it, there hasn't been a single person in Dean's life he has cared for more, not even John. So I wouldn't expect the same emotional response to Castiel, but I do expect something.

And I am putting aside the Sam issue on how Dean should treat Castiel, I am just talking about what he new, and went along with.

So yeah I can understand Dean working with him, and rationalizing why Castiel did what he did. But trust him? Never. Simply put their isn't any rational reason for it, at all. The only possible reason I can find is that Dean has such low self esteem that he would have to cling to someone (or something in Castiel's case) to feel that he has some value. And thats a pretty fucked up reason. Or Dean is just colossally stupid, and that isn't something that I want either.

And all my rants about this isn't because I don't want Sam to suffer, Oh no I want that boy to know just how much he screwed up (just as I want Dean to understand how much he pushed Sam into what he did). Hell I want to see Sam try and kill himself, so I am certainly not taking a soft approach to Sam.

But I want the characters (all of them) to interact with each other in a manner that makes some sense. And Dean still being so chummy with Castiel just rings so false to me. Its the only character bit in this episode that rang false to me (and character to me is always so much more important then plot).

Oh and on a lighter note, I finally watched all of Vamp, and MP. And boy Melrose Place sure made me miss Katie. I mean a lot. I mean I loved season 4 (it's easily my favorite even with Heaven & Hell, which I hated almost as much as Red Sky at Morning, so thats a lot), and with all the great actors they had that season, I just think how much more Katie could have brought to that season. Its a shame.

But god, it was so bad. Vamps was actually the better of the two (but still not good). In an hour episode they actually had about 6 minutes that was ok, the rest Yikes.... But good production values, wonder how long those will hold...

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Castiel, like the other angels, were created without free will. All they've known is to obey for far longer than humanity has existed. Any sign of him going against that is monstrous. Especially since he -- unlike most of the other angels we've been exposed to -- goes against his orders for the benefit of humanity and what he truly believes to be God's true will. Whereas most of the other angels who have begun to doubt God's existence (or know of His absence, in the case of the higher-ups like Zachariah) have taken to doing great evils instead.

I don't think you appreciate just how much means from Castiel. I really don't. There's a reason God has chosen him as his new right hand.

And yes, if God were to show up tomorrow and tell him to slaughter millions, he most likely would. And he would do so gladly, because he would know that is God's will and that His will supercedes all things. And God has apparently done that in the past. The Great Flood, the plagues, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. Are you going to chastise the angels that performed those commands for Him?

The thing is... nothing that's been going on in the show has truly been God's will. And Castiel has finally seen that. Not only that, but he has a front row seat at God's throne and truly is doing His will now. There is no question. There is no blind faith required (he had that in spades regardless). He knows that he follows His orders now... and he knows that He disapproves of everything Zachariah has been doing.

Will he do what God commands? Definitely. Will God order him to allow millions to die? Obviously not. Is it fair to judge Castiel for following God's commands? I'd say no, unless you wish to believe that God doesn't have humanity's best interest in mind.

The only real question is where has God been all this time, and why did it take Lucifer's rising to bring him out of his tupor?

 

[Thrall]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

And God has apparently done that in the past. The Great Flood, the plagues, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. Are you going to chastise the angels that performed those commands for Him?

I thought it was implied that the Angels higher ups gave the go ahead on that.

The only real question is where has God been all this time, and why did it take Lucifer's rising to bring him out of his tupor?

Maybe trapped in the body of a homeless bum who was in a coma after being mugged by 14 year old hooligan demons with hockey sticks? Or maybe not.

I think they implied he was busy creating other worlds. They seem to imply a deist view on God. He created the world, then he fucked off and left it to run itself. I mean, they're not going to go for The Preacher/Garth Ennis view here and piss off people by making God the biggest, most evil asshole in existence. Not even Joss Whedon had the balls to do that. Nazi Angels are controversial enough.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Checkmate

I have no problem with Castiel, based on his actions. I do understand that this is huge for him. Just as I know that how Castiel perceives the world that Dean and Sam inhabit in a completely different way. Just as he views human life I am sure in a way that is different from Dean and Sam. Thats not the issue.

The issue is how would Dean feel about Castiel. And that's completely different. First we are asking our lead character to thank of a being who isn't human as a buddy. Right there thats a significant step. Especially when that "buddy" has done and acted in ways that are foreign to Dean. For all of Dean's many faults (God I love the character) one of the things he does have is a great deal of respect for life. The idea of him being buddies with a being that has a far different idea on the value of innocents doesn't mesh with how I see Dean. It's like expecting Dean to understand a demon's view of human's. That isn't going to happen. Sure Dean can understand that their might be a situation where his immediate goals match that of a demon, he is absolutely going to understand that it's motivations for that goal is going to be 100% different then his.

As for Angels not having free will, lets face it out of every speaking Angel Dean has met all of them have shown some form of free will, each and everyone of them. And he certainly knows one other that had free will, who he has yet to meet. So while it is a huge deal personally for Castiel, it isn't going to seem that big of a deal to Dean based on his one year experience with various Angels.

So how can Dean treat a being with a completely different set of morality, a foreign world view, one that has lied to him, used him, manipulated him, one that has a blind devotion to a being that Dean doesn't trust in anyway shape or form and trust him and thank of him as a friend?

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Thrall

Its never been said exactly how long the angels we have seen have been without "God" in their lives. We know some Angels have never even seen him, though.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Checkmate

Actually Castiel doesn't yet know "God's will" all he knows is that Angels didn't rebuild his form or save Dean and Sam.

He is assuming that God is what did those things. But while that assumption is probably accurate it doesn't mean that he knows God's will and is acting to further the will of God.

Dialogue from a preview for next week might question that and we can discuss that possibility next week (though I do believe that is Castiel's path, just playing Devil's advocate).

Oh and while I do sound a bit negative about the episode, really I loved it. As I only rate In My Time of Dying as better for season openers (and thats probably one of the 5 best episodes of the show, in my opinion). I rank this one right with Lazarus Rising (another great episode).

 

[Othello]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

We aren't going to see Bela 2.0. The season's storyline has already been mapped out.

I rather liked Bela. She was a rather tragic figure actually. Had a MUCH rougher upbringing as a child than Dean and Sam. She had the absolute scum of the earth for parents and had Lillith take advantage of her as a child with that deal. Doomed to go to hell in ten years in your early teens cause a demon took advantage of a child with scum of the earth parents. Now that's truly evil and quite tragic. Personally I think people didn't like her because she made the brothers look like fools quite often, and given her background that makes all the sense in the world. I think most people were whining very much unnecessarily about her. Also, having a regular person that was somewhat of a nemesis for Dean and Sam was good IMHO.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

I liked Bela, too.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Interesting take on Bela. She could have been a decent character, but not knowing about her father abusing her until the very end was poor execution. Kripke admitting to TV Guide before the season started that he'd basically been forced by the network to add a second--young--female character doomed Bela in fan perceptions from the beginning. Their budget had been slashed, (Dawn O had wanted to cancel the show after season 2 but was overruled by Warner execs, also well known) and since they had to have the second female character, Samantha Ferris' Ellen got the boot. The CW wasn't interested in having an over 40 female as a semi regular, God forbid. That doomed Bela from the start. It's a shame. She was supposed to be a one off, and the way she sparred with Dean in "Bad Day at Black Rock" was excellent. Ben Edlund created her and that was a sharp, funny episode. Then--to me at least--she just seemed shoehorned in.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 5x1 "Sympathy For the Devil" discussion thread/spoile

Bela, Bela, Bela. I do wonder when they got the order to create a 2nd female character. I wonder if they had already written Bad Day at Black Rock or if it was still in the early stages. Because the character works there. And in my opinion works in the episodes Jus In Belo and Time is on My side, exceptionally well. I can even by her in Dream a little Dream, as Bobby is family and sometimes you deal with people you don't trust for family.

The problem wasn't the character of Bela, the problem is how they had the guys react to her. In Jus In Belo and Time Is On My Side they treat her as criminal who can't be trusted in any way shape or form, and that felt correct.

What the writers have admitted is that by having Bela shoot Sam (when he is literally cursed to have normal events became mortal threats, and by having her have no sympathy for stealing the rabbits foot (with Dean now affected by said curse) knowingly consigning both of them to death within the week really should have had the brothers treat her in a completely different way.

Yet when they next meet they treat her as a friendly rival, one to snark at, but one you don't take as a threat.

That is completely out of character for either character. Dean would never, never forgive someone (especially then) for acts that would kill Sam. Period, he had just made a deal for his soul to save Sam. Dean would treat her as seriously as he would treat Gordon or a demon. And what about pacifist Sam. Sorry at this point of the game the idea of someone putting Dean's life on the line, would set about as well as watching Yellow Eyes have sex with Mary. THis was a character who was willing to became a immortal monster just to save Dean, so yeah, Sam would never forgive that.

It wasn't the fact (well for most fans) that she outwitted Dean and Sam, its that they never once (until after she stole the colt) truly treated her as a serious threat. And thats why I felt she didn't work, the interactions just was out of character and took me out of those episodes.