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Supernatural 3x15 "Death Takes a Holiday" SPOILERS discussion

He sure doesn't. :guffaw::guffaw::guffaw::guffaw::guffaw:

I think back to all the little things that make so much sense in retrospect on this show: Azazel possessing daddy Winchester in the season one finale telling Sam that he killed mommy and pretty little Jess because they "got in the way," then later finding out that not every mother of a psychic kid got torched, and finally in this season's "In the Beginning" hearing Azazel tell a 19 year old Mary that nothing would happen to her when he "came for a visit" in ten years if she let him be and didn't interfere. Mary interfered, so she got torched. Other mothers (like Ava's) didn't wake up so they lived. Then there was ghost Mary's look of complete recognition at adult Dean in "Home" when she finally materialized (I was always confused by that) and her telling Sam she was sorry in a way that implied she'd done something wrong.

Then there was all the foreshadowing in "Houses of the Holy." I like it.

Yeah, that was well thought out. I was glad when they finally explained all of that. I'm sure there's more there to be explored. It was cool knowing that Sam and Dean were third generation hunters.

I wish they would answer if Lilith is indeed the one from Hebrew mythology. The first wife of Adam, mother of all vampires.
 
We don't know why Lucifer rebelled. We're not even sure if he was really an Angel at this point (Biblical Lucifer was the mortal human king of Babylon), though it is strongly implied that he was.

There is a body of pop culture that associates Lucifer with the Firebringer/Lightbringer archetype as exemplified by the Titan Prometheus, a character who elevates mankind by teaching them the forbidden knowledge of the gods, thus earning the enmity of the gods and an undeserved punishment. Perhaps his original attempt to create demons was purely altuistic, an attempt to free humanity from the cycle of life and death, that went horribly wrong.

We also don't know if God with a capital G actually exists. Angels do not imply a God. All we know is that there are gods, lower case plural. Most likely the big throne goes to the head of whichever Pantheon is on top at the moment.

That would give us either YHWH, Allah, Jesus, Brahma, or Buddha, with the Yellow Emperor having only a distant shot at the position.

YHWH is an asshole who betrayed his wife and cast her aside like so much garbage because he was jealous of the worship that she was getting.

Allah betrayed his entire Pantheon and stole YHWH's shtick.

Brahma is also sort of a jerk sometimes, but he isn't as egotistical as the former two.

Jesus, Gautama Buddha, and the Yellow Emperor are interesting cases because they were all mortals who became gods because they were so incredibly awesome.

JC was a devout YHWHist who may or may not appreciate being elevated to divine status.

Buddha didn't really care about worldly things and spent most of his efforts transcending existence by purging himself of all desire. He's also an aescetic who gave up his throne to seek enlightenment, so it is unlikely that he'd seek the throne of Heaven.

Now, the Yellow Emperor is more than a little baddass, being the first Emperor of China. But it's unlikely that he sits on the throne of Heaven simply due to the fact that he'd play a much more active role in things if he did.


All current information suggests that the Throne of Heaven is currently vacant, with the four politically powerful Angels using "God" in the same manner that The Party of 1984 used Big Brother, a fiction that justifies their power.

Either that or the current holder of the big title is a paranoid recluse, which certainly wouldn't be a good thing, either.

There is actually no evidence that human souls naturally go to Heaven or Hell, and the Reapers appear to be a neutral third party who aren't above taking gods. Most likely, there is a separate land of the dead and everyone in Hell either damned themselves by making a deal of some sort (some more innocuous than others) or were damned by others practicing dark magics.
 
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We don't know why Lucifer rebelled. We're not even sure if he was really an Angel at this point (Biblical Lucifer was the mortal human king of Babylon), though it is strongly implied that he was.
Most modern biblical teachings and traditions are pretty clear on why he rebelled. The reason that is kind of important is that the show his heavily based on occultism and real folklore. Most of which that is shown on the show is strongly influenced by Christian mysticism, mythology, and superstition.

There is a body of pop culture that associates Lucifer with the Firebringer/Lightbringer archetype as exemplified by the Titan Prometheus, a character who elevates mankind by teaching them the forbidden knowledge of the gods, thus earning the enmity of the gods and an undeserved punishment. Perhaps his original attempt to create demons was purely altuistic, an attempt to free humanity from the cycle of life and death, that went horribly wrong.
Very creative idea. But I like my Devil like I my Heavy Metal: evil as sin. Black Sabbath shouldn't be misunderstood. They should be evil and dangerous.

We also don't know if God with a capital G actually exists. Angels do not imply a God. All we know is that there are gods, lower case plural. Most likely the big throne goes to the head of whichever Pantheon is on top at the moment.

That would give us either YHWH, Allah, Jesus, Brahma, or Buddha, with the Yellow Emperor having only a distant shot at the position.

YHWH is an asshole who betrayed his wife and cast her aside like so much garbage because he was jealous of the worship that she was getting.

Allah betrayed his entire Pantheon and stole YHWH's shtick.

Brahma is also sort of a jerk sometimes, but he isn't as egotistical as the former two.

Jesus, Guatama Buddha, and the Yellow Emperor was interesting case because they were all mortals who became gods because they were so incredibly awesome.

JC was a devout YHWHist who may or may not apreciate being elevitated to divine status.

Buddha didn't really care about wordly things and spent most of his efforts transcending existance by purging himself of all desire. He's also an aescetic who gave up his throne to seek enlightenment, so it is unlikely that he'd seek the throne of Heaven.

Now, the Yellow Emperor is more than a little baddass, being the first Emperor of China. But it's unlikely that he sits on the throne of Heaven simply due to the fact that he'd play a much more active role in things if he did.


All current information suggests that the Throne of Heaven is currently vacant, with the four politically powerful Angels using "God" in the same manner that The Party of 1984 used Big Brother, a fiction that justifies their power.

Either that or the current holder of the big title is a paranoid recluse, which certainly wouldn't be a good thing, either.
Again, the folklore they mostly use is based on European Christian mysticism, so they're implying it's the Christian God. And Casteil hasn't lied to Dean yet.

There is actually no evidence that human souls naturally go to Heaven or Hell, and the Repers appear to be a neutral third party who aren't above taking gods. Most likely, there is a separate land of the dead and everyone in Hell either damned themselves by making a deal of some sort (some more innocuous than others) or were damned by others practicing dark magics.
Like I said, they seem to imply that the worst of the worst go to Hell.
 
I've always assumed that Sam is Lucifer in the literal sense, that when he rebelled they ripped his Grace out and tossed him upon the Wheel of Mortality so that he would live and die as a human time and time again, never knowing peace or happiness, and Sam is simply his latest incarnation. That would explain why he isn't seen in hell. After all, to rule in hell would not be much of a punishment.

That's a really cool idea. But I don't think the show is that ambitious. Way I figure, all the mystical evil in the world has to have a source.

Of course, I'm also going from the point of view that the demons were innocent victims of horrific persecution and have simply been twisted into angry monsters by all of the pain that they've been forced to endure, so that, with a few exceptions, they aren't irredeemable and Azazel's endgame is less world domination and more peace with humans by creating a powerful leader who can understand and sympathize with both humans and demons.

After all, hell is the worst place in existance, even for demons. It's so horrific that none of them want to be there. So, why would any of them want to create hell on Earth, when Earth on Earth would be so much more pleasant?

Misunderstood? Hardly. The Fallen Angels rebelled against God because they were jealous of humanity and wanted to wipe us out. Many Angels died to protect our right to exist. It's one of the reasons they have it out for us. In the show, those who are condemned to Hell deserve it. Not any of that Working on The Sabbath or cheated on your wife stuff. No, the worst of the worst. Or those who make deals with demons, who clearly realize what they're doing. But that's deep, religious stuff that can only be speculated on and won't really ever come up in the show. Azazel is clearly one of the fallen btw, which is why Lucifer was so keen on him.

While it's true that we don't know what persons have gone to hell, except for all witches (and we already know many of them have no idea the source of their powers actually exist), and many who have made deals. And out of all those we have seen make deals we know of two that had no idea what they were doing. The child Bela (who grew into the way she was to get out of her deal, once she discovered it was real), and one of the victims in Cross Road Blues who was drunk and had no idea that deals (or demons, ect) could be made, it was his wife's recovery that clued him in.

So I think we can clarify that some innocents do go to hell. We also saw (the teen who wished that his father would stop hurting his mother would stop), he also had no idea about demons or that you could make a deal. It wasn't until after that it occurred to him.

On the issue of general behavior, though we have no real frame of judgment. We can go on the mythology of christianity and that shows that what one thinks of as very minor vaults and actions would be enough. Or it could be only the greatest of offensives or those who aren't repentant rot their sins. We simply don't know. The fact that they guys couldn't even say with any authority that the child would go to heaven is pretty telling (and one I think Dean would have some knowledge of as he would have seen the type of people who do go to hell in the forty years he experienced. We see that Pamela is pretty sure where she was going.
 
Very creative idea. But I like my Devil like I my Heavy Metal: evil as sin. Black Sabbath shouldn't be misunderstood. They should be evil and dangerous.

Ozzy said:
I'm not the kind of person you think I am
I'm not the Antichrist or the Iron Man

I have a vision that I just can't control
I feel I've lost my spirit and sold my soul

Got no control

I tried to entertain you the best I can
I wish I started walking before I ran
But I still I love the feeling I get from you
I hope you'll never stop cause

It gets me through...yeah
It gets me through...yeah

The feelings that I hide behind
Sometimes reality's unkind
The nightmare starts for me at night
I dread the long and lonely nights

I'm not the kind of person you think I am
I'm not the Antichrist or the Iron Man
But I still I love the feeling I get from you
I hope you'll never stop cause
It gets me through...yeah
I'm just tryin to live...yeah

Personally, I like my God to be evil. It's a better underdog story that way.

Most modern biblical teachings and traditions are pretty clear on why he rebelled. The reason that is kind of important is that the show his heavily based on occultism and real folklore. Most of which that is shown on the show is strongly influenced by Christian mysticism, mythology, and superstition.
Supernatural presents is a uniquely American melting pot mythology where various mutually exclusive mythologies all have a grain of truth, but none are totally correct. Various pre-Christian deities are shown to be real (and a couple of them are killed) America is very Christian, but it's also home of modern Satanism and Luciferianism. There's also a very old Gnostic Lucifarian tradition, for what that's worth.

Kripke's original inspiration was Gaiman's American Gods, a book with essentially glorifies America's cultural melting pot nature by having the deities from various mutually-exclusive ancient Pantheons hanging out and fighting with new gods born from modern obsessions.

And Casteil hasn't lied to Dean yet.
Neither has Anna. Castiel has never met God, never heard Him. The Boss Angels tell him what "God" wants and he takes them at their word without question, because questioning orders would be disobedience, and disobedience is not tolerated. It's all very totalitarian up there.
 
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We don't know why Lucifer rebelled. We're not even sure if he was really an Angel at this point (Biblical Lucifer was the mortal human king of Babylon), though it is strongly implied that he was.

There is a body of pop culture that associates Lucifer with the Firebringer/Lightbringer archetype as exemplified by the Titan Prometheus, a character who elevates mankind by teaching them the forbidden knowledge of the gods, thus earning the enmity of the gods and an undeserved punishment. Perhaps his original attempt to create demons was purely altuistic, an attempt to free humanity from the cycle of life and death, that went horribly wrong.

We also don't know if God with a capital G actually exists. Angels do not imply a God. All we know is that there are gods, lower case plural. Most likely the big throne goes to the head of whichever Pantheon is on top at the moment.

That would give us either YHWH, Allah, Jesus, Brahma, or Buddha, with the Yellow Emperor having only a distant shot at the position.

YHWH is an asshole who betrayed his wife and cast her aside like so much garbage because he was jealous of the worship that she was getting.

Allah betrayed his entire Pantheon and stole YHWH's shtick.

Brahma is also sort of a jerk sometimes, but he isn't as egotistical as the former two.

Jesus, Guatama Buddha, and the Yellow Emperor was interesting case because they were all mortals who became gods because they were so incredibly awesome.

JC was a devout YHWHist who may or may not apreciate being elevitated to divine status.

Buddha didn't really care about wordly things and spent most of his efforts transcending existance by purging himself of all desire. He's also an aescetic who gave up his throne to seek enlightenment, so it is unlikely that he'd seek the throne of Heaven.

Now, the Yellow Emperor is more than a little baddass, being the first Emperor of China. But it's unlikely that he sits on the throne of Heaven simply due to the fact that he'd play a much more active role in things if he did.


All current information suggests that the Throne of Heaven is currently vacant, with the four politically powerful Angels using "God" in the same manner that The Party of 1984 used Big Brother, a fiction that justifies their power.

Either that or the current holder of the big title is a paranoid recluse, which certainly wouldn't be a good thing, either.

There is actually no evidence that human souls naturally go to Heaven or Hell, and the Reapers appear to be a neutral third party who aren't above taking gods. Most likely, there is a separate land of the dead and everyone in Hell either damned themselves by making a deal of some sort (some more innocuous than others) or were damned by others practicing dark magics.

Nice post.
 
I'm not the kind of person you think I am
I'm not the Antichrist or the Iron Man

I have a vision that I just can't control
I feel I've lost my spirit and sold my soul

Got no control

I tried to entertain you the best I can
I wish I started walking before I ran
But I still I love the feeling I get from you
I hope you'll never stop cause

It gets me through...yeah
It gets me through...yeah

The feelings that I hide behind
Sometimes reality's unkind
The nightmare starts for me at night
I dread the long and lonely nights

I'm not the kind of person you think I am
I'm not the Antichrist or the Iron Man
But I still I love the feeling I get from you
I hope you'll never stop cause
It gets me through...yeah
I'm just tryin to live...yeah
There's a reason Geezer Butler wrote all the songs in Black Sabbath and not Ozzy. There's a reason people pay more attention to him biting the heads of wings animals and not his music. I much prefer:

What is this that stands before me?
Figure in black which points at me
Turn around quick, and start to run
Find out I'm the chosen one
Oh nooo!
Big black shape with eyes of fire
Telling people their desire
Satan's sitting there, he's smiling
Watches those flames get higher and higher
Oh no, no, please God help me!
Is it the end, my friend?
Satan's coming 'round the bend
People running 'cause they're scared
The people better go and beware!
No, no, please, no!
Supernatural presents is a uniquely American melting pot mythology where various mutually exclusive mythologies all have a grain of truth, but none are totally correct. Various pre-Christian deities are shown to be real (and a couple of them are killed) America is very Christian, but it's also home of modern Satanism and Luciferianism. There's also a very old Gnostic Lucifarian tradition, for what that's worth.
This is true. But most of the mysticism they use: Holy Water, Salt, Pentagrams, etc. Most are based on European folklore. Which in itself has a strong Christian influence there. The writers aren't even aware of it probably. The only real exception is the Voodoo episodes. Because that's an American creation(well...more or less). The majority of monsters they use are based on European mythical creatures. They'll throw the occasional non-European creature in there. Vampires, werewolves, demon possession, Striga's, the way they present Witches, the way they present ghosts, the way they present good vs evil, etc. It's something out of a Transylvania village.

Kripke's original inspiration was Gaiman's American Gods, a book with essentially glorifies America's cultural melting pot nature by having the deities from various mutually-exclusive ancient Pantheons hanging out and fighting with new gods born from modern obsessions.
Well, he says that. He's the got the Americana meets old world mythology thing with this show that the book had. But honestly it's just Angel meets The Hardy Boys when you get down to it.

Neither has Anna. Castiel has never met God, never head Him. The Boss Angels tell him what "God" wants and he takes them at their word without question, because questioning orders would be disobediance, and disobediance is not tollerated. It's all very totalitarian up there.
Well that much is obvious. You're over intellectualizing this considerably. You're thinking about this way more then the writers obviously are. It isn't something deep and philosophical for believers and non-believers to scream at each other in The Neutral Zone about. It's just entertainment. That's all. You're not supposed to find new questions about life and the nature of the universe here. You're just supposed to go "Oh Snap! Dean just shot that werewolf!". Just try to give that gigantic brain of yours a rest for an hour. You'll feel better for it.
 
Folks, let's not get snipey. There's middle ground here. I don't know how "deep" the writers intended to be about the demons and the questions of heaven, hell, life, and death, (if it fosters that kind of discussion I think it's done great and is a step ahead) but I find the familial bond presented to be quite profound, and I also find it very ballsy that Kripke's presenting a god who refuses to show himself no matter how much bad shit's going on. Like--where the hell are you, you sorry bastard? Show yourself. I rather like that. A simple, profound question: why do you let people suffer, you prick? It's a basic question, but an important one. Why should I have faith in you if you never show yourself? Then again neither does Lucifer.

Another sneak peek at Alistair taunting Dean and then some. The man's like a stalker hunting sexual prey. I love Christopher Heyerdahl.

Alistair
 
Can I just say that I love the pun about how 'deep' hell is?:devil:

I'm also taken by the idea of God as the tyrant or the non-existent figurehead it seems to be a more common theme in modern theological fiction. I doubt that God will ever been seen but it might be a interesting notion.

Of course Lucifer and God could be the same being:shifty:
 
I doubt that God will ever been seen but it might be a interesting notion.

I'm not sure how Kripke would tackle the concept of "presenting God." I think Castiel's gonna fall because God won't show His face.
 
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