Hee. You called it right when you were conjecturing about it earlier in the thread, mswood.
Piccie?
Piccie?
Supernatural 3x15 "Death Takes a Holiday" SPOILERS discussion
- Thread starter Dorian Thompson
- Start date
With a loose plan for 5 years (one that has had some revisions to it for both the ending of season 2 and the planned middle section of season 3), how do you want this arc to end?
Season 5 episode 22
Sam versus Dean to the death of one or both of the characters?
Sam and Dean (that conflict already over, united in their fight) dying together to end the struggle?
Sam and Dean fighting together, but one of the brothers dying in the final conflict?
Sam and Dean surviving the final conflict still hunting together?
Sam and Dean surviving the conflict but going their own separate ways?
Sam and Dean surviving the conflict and both giving up on hunting?
I know I would prefer the guys dying together (on the same side) or surviving together and still hunting together (but perhaps a little more settled down like Bobby).
What do you want and want do you expect?
Season 5 episode 22
Sam versus Dean to the death of one or both of the characters?
Sam and Dean (that conflict already over, united in their fight) dying together to end the struggle?
Sam and Dean fighting together, but one of the brothers dying in the final conflict?
Sam and Dean surviving the final conflict still hunting together?
Sam and Dean surviving the conflict but going their own separate ways?
Sam and Dean surviving the conflict and both giving up on hunting?
I know I would prefer the guys dying together (on the same side) or surviving together and still hunting together (but perhaps a little more settled down like Bobby).
What do you want and want do you expect?
I DO NOT want a happy ending. No way, no how. I want them to make a TOUGH choice and not an easy one. One of my all time favorite movies is the sappy romantic movie City of Angels because it had the BALLS to do the tragic, heartbreaking ending. Happy endings generally are boring and predictable. That doesn't mean that one of em has to die, if one or both doe that's fine, but I don't want a crappy paint by numbers happy ending.
God that Reaper chick is hawt. I'm wondering when Dean will do her. It's pretty clear that she wants him, like any sentient being with a vagina. Dean has clearly become the Captain Kirk of the fantasy genre. Kirk gets Orion Slave Girls. Dean gets everything else. Sam is his Spock, because both have a limited range of emotions. Suck on that Chris Pine.
So apparently there are 66 potential seals and you only have to open 7? Way to create a window of opportunity guys.
Sam is so Lucifer. The blood was to create a chosen vessel, I'm calling it now. I wonder how Lucifer will like his little Samsuit? Hopefully it's slimming.
Ruby's a Devil groupie. If she helps out Sam she's hoping Ol Scratch will make her his chick and whip the asses of the demons that condemned her to Hell. I'm calling that right now.
I still want Angel Girl to come back with Dean Jr.
They made reference to The Four Horsemen. Maybe The Angel of Death is like the leader of all The Reapers. If that's the case, and especially after all the crap the demons have done to his flock, why would he help them out? Their takes on War, Pestilence, and Famine would be interesting. Not nearly as interesting as they were in Good Omens by Terry Prachett and Neil Gaiman. But they'd be close.
As far as an ending, if it's not a blowjob ending like Angel had I won't be too upset. I would like something like the end of Preacher, where Jesse Custer gets The Saint of Killers(The Angel of Death) to do humanity a favor and kills both Satan and God. But that would probably be a bit too extreme for a show on the CW. Angels who are dicks is controversial enough.
So apparently there are 66 potential seals and you only have to open 7? Way to create a window of opportunity guys.
Sam is so Lucifer. The blood was to create a chosen vessel, I'm calling it now. I wonder how Lucifer will like his little Samsuit? Hopefully it's slimming.
Ruby's a Devil groupie. If she helps out Sam she's hoping Ol Scratch will make her his chick and whip the asses of the demons that condemned her to Hell. I'm calling that right now.
I still want Angel Girl to come back with Dean Jr.
They made reference to The Four Horsemen. Maybe The Angel of Death is like the leader of all The Reapers. If that's the case, and especially after all the crap the demons have done to his flock, why would he help them out? Their takes on War, Pestilence, and Famine would be interesting. Not nearly as interesting as they were in Good Omens by Terry Prachett and Neil Gaiman. But they'd be close.
As far as an ending, if it's not a blowjob ending like Angel had I won't be too upset. I would like something like the end of Preacher, where Jesse Custer gets The Saint of Killers(The Angel of Death) to do humanity a favor and kills both Satan and God. But that would probably be a bit too extreme for a show on the CW. Angels who are dicks is controversial enough.
Really though for this show want would be a "Happy ending"
Even if both brothers live and the world is saved (from hell, but literally all other aspects of the supernatural would still be out there), they have lost everyone they loved (with the current exception of Bobby and god that could easily change), every dream ad aspiration they have ever had as been left behind.
Really the closest thing to a "Happy Ending" is them still hunting and most likely looking at having no life, no family (besides each other) and the prospect that they will be knee deep in fighting evil until their early deaths.
Not really a "happy ending".
I certainly don't think they would ever have them stop hunting and get real lives, start a family, ect that you think of when you think "happy endings".
Well the title of the last episode is "Lucifer Rising" and the show has been aiming at a Sam versus Dean story line. So it certainly is possible that Sam is going to be a vessel for that.
The only thing I wonder about is how they would handle that. If the show truly goes to the point of making Sam the big bad (or any out and out adversary for Dean) that lasts for any real sense of time.
Then thats puts the show in a position its never been in, and thats telling a two front storyline and keeping both going while keeping the two characters separate for what would be many episodes. I could see it for anywhere between 3-5 episodes, but more then that I lack confidence in the writers.
Since I would assume they would try and keep both characters in each episode (they do like getting paid), I just don't know if the writers could successfully handle that.
We have seen almost nothing of that type of storytelling from them to judge.
And for a good part of the audience reaction to the show has been the brothers interactions (even when fighting each other), but to tell that type of story they would most likely have little actual interaction (certainly not on an episode to episode basis).
The one plus for that is that it would allow each actor to have more time off, instead of having to be there so many hours each and every day filming.
The only thing I wonder about is how they would handle that. If the show truly goes to the point of making Sam the big bad (or any out and out adversary for Dean) that lasts for any real sense of time.
Then thats puts the show in a position its never been in, and thats telling a two front storyline and keeping both going while keeping the two characters separate for what would be many episodes. I could see it for anywhere between 3-5 episodes, but more then that I lack confidence in the writers.
Since I would assume they would try and keep both characters in each episode (they do like getting paid), I just don't know if the writers could successfully handle that.
We have seen almost nothing of that type of storytelling from them to judge.
And for a good part of the audience reaction to the show has been the brothers interactions (even when fighting each other), but to tell that type of story they would most likely have little actual interaction (certainly not on an episode to episode basis).
The one plus for that is that it would allow each actor to have more time off, instead of having to be there so many hours each and every day filming.
I've always assumed that Sam is Lucifer in the literal sense, that when he rebelled they ripped his Grace out and tossed him upon the Wheel of Mortality so that he would live and die as a human time and time again, never knowing peace or happiness, and Sam is simply his latest incarnation. That would explain why he isn't seen in hell. After all, to rule in hell would not be much of a punishment.
Of course, I'm also going from the point of view that the demons were innocent victims of horrific persecution and have simply been twisted into angry monsters by all of the pain that they've been forced to endure, so that, with a few exceptions, they aren't irredeemable and Azazel's endgame is less world domination and more peace with humans by creating a powerful leader who can understand and sympathize with both humans and demons.
After all, hell is the worst place in existance, even for demons. It's so horrific that none of them want to be there. So, why would any of them want to create hell on Earth, when Earth on Earth would be so much more pleasant?
Lilith has to break half the seals, not only 7 of them. As for what would constitute a happy or unhappy ending.....I see Sam and Dean going out in a blaze of glory and dying together. It seems the only ending possible. Is that happy or unhappy? 
You really think Sam is Lucifer, hyzmarca? I'm not so sure. I'm thinking Lucifer wants him as a vesel, no doubt about it. The demons saw their opportunity when Dean made the deal and they knew his brother with the demonic potential would be alone upstairs, feeling guilty, ripe for the plucking. I've been impressed with the slowly widening rift between the brothers this season. It feels so real. Some of the teeny boppers are aghast and want their snuggle brothers back emoting, caring, and sharing immediately, but those not in the microwave generation really seem to be enjoying the ride.
You got that right. Here in America, you've gotta tread lightly with religion on the networks. Kripke would love the publicity, but the CW wouldn't. Kripke talks to TV Guide online every so often; in one of his Q&A's he revealed that the network censors tried to convince him to get rid of the scene where the live teddy bear tried to commit suicide and we saw the stuffing blow all over the wall. That's not a brave network.
You really think Sam is Lucifer, hyzmarca? I'm not so sure. I'm thinking Lucifer wants him as a vesel, no doubt about it. The demons saw their opportunity when Dean made the deal and they knew his brother with the demonic potential would be alone upstairs, feeling guilty, ripe for the plucking. I've been impressed with the slowly widening rift between the brothers this season. It feels so real. Some of the teeny boppers are aghast and want their snuggle brothers back emoting, caring, and sharing immediately, but those not in the microwave generation really seem to be enjoying the ride.
You got that right. Here in America, you've gotta tread lightly with religion on the networks. Kripke would love the publicity, but the CW wouldn't. Kripke talks to TV Guide online every so often; in one of his Q&A's he revealed that the network censors tried to convince him to get rid of the scene where the live teddy bear tried to commit suicide and we saw the stuffing blow all over the wall. That's not a brave network.
I believe in Chekhov's Gun. Anna wasn't just a plot expository Angel, she served an important purpose. She showed that Angels can be made human, and that it's a violent painful process that involves forcibly removing a vital part of them, the source of their divine power. The logical thought is that this is a very important plot point that will come back later.
There are also some other important plot points.
1) Lucifer isn't in Hell. We know this from Sin City. None of the demons have seen him, he's a mere myth to them.
2) Sam was Azazel's "favorite" for some reason.
3) Demons hate hell, and want out because it's so torturous. (BUABS)
4) Some demons aren't blindly malicious. And some of them are still capable of love. (Sin City).
The big thing that they're pushing this season is that humans and demons aren't different. Dean's experiences in hell have given him a new perspective on things, and have given Sam a new perspective as well. Dean broke. Everybody breaks, eventually. If you torture a person enough, hurt him enough, treat him like a savage animal for long enough, then there is nothing left but the pain, the drive to lash out, and the most basic instinct to survive.
Family Remains was all about showing that people who are subjected to horrific abuses, no matter how innocent they are, eventually lose touch with their humanity. Most importantly, it was about showing that even Dean reached that point, and was just barely brought back from the brink.
After all of the stuff that Dean did in Hell, he makes Hitler look like a saint by comparison. But it did what he had to to survive, and remain sane. And Sam understands that and accepts that. It wasn't Dean's fault, even though he blames himself.
And the same is true for all the other demons. The only difference is that, except for Ruby (and possibly the demons from Sin City), they didn't get out in time, they haven't been able to pull themselves out of the all-consuming abyss of hopeless pain and nihilistic rage that naturally took seat in their souls and they don't have anyone to help them come back.
That's why I think that they're pushing towards a peace with the demons ending, because they've gone through the effort to show us that demons are just people who are hurt and angry, rather than embodiments of pure evil. Sam as Lucifer, or Sam killing Lucifer and taking his place, is practically the only way to make peace possible. He is still, at his core, a compassionate person, but he doesn't have enough power to force millions of demons to live in harmony with humans, as it is.
There are also some other important plot points.
1) Lucifer isn't in Hell. We know this from Sin City. None of the demons have seen him, he's a mere myth to them.
2) Sam was Azazel's "favorite" for some reason.
3) Demons hate hell, and want out because it's so torturous. (BUABS)
4) Some demons aren't blindly malicious. And some of them are still capable of love. (Sin City).
The big thing that they're pushing this season is that humans and demons aren't different. Dean's experiences in hell have given him a new perspective on things, and have given Sam a new perspective as well. Dean broke. Everybody breaks, eventually. If you torture a person enough, hurt him enough, treat him like a savage animal for long enough, then there is nothing left but the pain, the drive to lash out, and the most basic instinct to survive.
Family Remains was all about showing that people who are subjected to horrific abuses, no matter how innocent they are, eventually lose touch with their humanity. Most importantly, it was about showing that even Dean reached that point, and was just barely brought back from the brink.
After all of the stuff that Dean did in Hell, he makes Hitler look like a saint by comparison. But it did what he had to to survive, and remain sane. And Sam understands that and accepts that. It wasn't Dean's fault, even though he blames himself.
And the same is true for all the other demons. The only difference is that, except for Ruby (and possibly the demons from Sin City), they didn't get out in time, they haven't been able to pull themselves out of the all-consuming abyss of hopeless pain and nihilistic rage that naturally took seat in their souls and they don't have anyone to help them come back.
That's why I think that they're pushing towards a peace with the demons ending, because they've gone through the effort to show us that demons are just people who are hurt and angry, rather than embodiments of pure evil. Sam as Lucifer, or Sam killing Lucifer and taking his place, is practically the only way to make peace possible. He is still, at his core, a compassionate person, but he doesn't have enough power to force millions of demons to live in harmony with humans, as it is.
Am ambitious theory, but I can't see peace with the demons as endgame. What it is I'm not sure, but I don't trust Ruby as far as I can throw her. I'm thinking she's working for Lucifer and/or Lilith. Why did Lilith let her back out of hell? Ruby as ultimately good doesn't work for me. That was too devilish a smile from her in the SPACE preview--which works if you reload the page or link to the alternate link for the space promo that's listed on the left side of the page.
Not all the demons got into hell in the first place because they made a deal to save their loved ones. Some of them had to deserve to be there.
Not all the demons got into hell in the first place because they made a deal to save their loved ones. Some of them had to deserve to be there.
It depends on what sort of standards used for judgment. By some standards, Hell would mostly be full of men and women who sexually experimented with their college roommates once or twice.
But, really does anyone deserve torture so horrific that the human mind is unable to imagine it? The oblivion granted by The Colt is, at least, merciful. Hell is pure sadism without concern for mercy or justice or basic human decency.
But, really does anyone deserve torture so horrific that the human mind is unable to imagine it? The oblivion granted by The Colt is, at least, merciful. Hell is pure sadism without concern for mercy or justice or basic human decency.
Osama Bin Laden? Hitler?
At least for a little while. The fact that Dean's mind doesn't go there--they were in hell so they deserved it--is to the character's credit. Not everyone would make the connection.
I also like the moment with Ruby where Sam has just exorcised a demon (while Dean is watching) and she's in the background asking if he felt any pain, and her expression when he says no... YOu can see a plan in her mind, and it doesn't appear to be something she is sharing with Sam.
I just can't see them building towards Sam being the Big Bad and pulling it off.
I can see him in conflict with Dean (and being used, and going over to the darkside), but I just can't see him doing it sometime between now and through out the 5th season. I would like open hostility between them for a few episodes at least, though.
I can see him in conflict with Dean (and being used, and going over to the darkside), but I just can't see him doing it sometime between now and through out the 5th season. I would like open hostility between them for a few episodes at least, though.
Oh, we'll get the hostility. Of that I've no doubt. How far wil they go? 
I think I remember the Ruby moment of which you speak. Darn, the actress from "Sin City" who played Casey would have made an excellent Ruby 2.0.
I think I remember the Ruby moment of which you speak. Darn, the actress from "Sin City" who played Casey would have made an excellent Ruby 2.0.
That's a really cool idea. But I don't think the show is that ambitious. Way I figure, all the mystical evil in the world has to have a source.
Misunderstood? Hardly. The Fallen Angels rebelled against God because they were jealous of humanity and wanted to wipe us out. Many Angels died to protect our right to exist. It's one of the reasons they have it out for us. In the show, those who are condemned to Hell deserve it. Not any of that Working on The Sabbath or cheated on your wife stuff. No, the worst of the worst. Or those who make deals with demons, who clearly realize what they're doing. But that's deep, religious stuff that can only be speculated on and won't really ever come up in the show. Azazel is clearly one of the fallen btw, which is why Lucifer was so keen on him.
I love this discussion. It's so much richer than "Gee, do you think Kara will end up with Lee or Sam?" 
BTW, the Lee/Kara shippers on scifi.com are rumored not to be happy this finale's eve.
I'd rather debate about demons and angels myself. Say what you will about Kripke, he planned his long term story better than Ron Moore did.
BTW, the Lee/Kara shippers on scifi.com are rumored not to be happy this finale's eve.I'd rather debate about demons and angels myself. Say what you will about Kripke, he planned his long term story better than Ron Moore did.
I love this discussion. It's so much richer than "Gee, do you think Kara will end up with Lee or Sam?"
When it started out it was cute. When it became a contest over who was the bigger adulterous douchebag, it stopped being cute.
"Ron Moore was created by Rick Berman. But he rebelled. He evolved. He has many worshipers. And he doesn't have a plan."
He sure doesn't.
I think back to all the little things that make so much sense in retrospect on this show: Azazel possessing daddy Winchester in the season one finale telling Sam that he killed mommy and pretty little Jess because they "got in the way," then later finding out that not every mother of a psychic kid got torched, and finally in this season's "In the Beginning" hearing Azazel tell a 19 year old Mary that nothing would happen to her when he "came for a visit" in ten years if she let him be and didn't interfere. Mary interfered, so she got torched. Other mothers (like Ava's) didn't wake up so they lived. Then there was ghost Mary's look of complete recognition at adult Dean in "Home" when she finally materialized (I was always confused by that) and her telling Sam she was sorry in a way that implied she'd done something wrong.
Then there was all the foreshadowing in "Houses of the Holy." I like it.
I think back to all the little things that make so much sense in retrospect on this show: Azazel possessing daddy Winchester in the season one finale telling Sam that he killed mommy and pretty little Jess because they "got in the way," then later finding out that not every mother of a psychic kid got torched, and finally in this season's "In the Beginning" hearing Azazel tell a 19 year old Mary that nothing would happen to her when he "came for a visit" in ten years if she let him be and didn't interfere. Mary interfered, so she got torched. Other mothers (like Ava's) didn't wake up so they lived. Then there was ghost Mary's look of complete recognition at adult Dean in "Home" when she finally materialized (I was always confused by that) and her telling Sam she was sorry in a way that implied she'd done something wrong.
Then there was all the foreshadowing in "Houses of the Holy." I like it.