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Superman

TREK_GOD_1 said:
Your post is what occurs when one fails to grasp the nature of a discussion. No one was complaining about self-plagiarism. Not at any point, so where you're pulling that from is...well...

The fact remains that Horner used the opening of Courage's incredibly well-known TOS theme in the introduction of his TWOK main and end credits, but did not base his entire, original score on Courage or any other composer who contributed to TOS, despite the film being part of the same series. This stands on the opposite side of those who are so pie-eyed on Williams' score (and film, by association), that the artistic benefit of not using a theme specifically created for a character in an equally specific production flies over their Williams-besotted heads. As noted days ago, as memorable, popular and effective James Bernard's Horror of Dracula had been, Williams' Dracula score was an original work--as it needed to be, since the film was a separate creation despite using the same main character. The '79 film was not living in the creative shadow of, or serving as a constant reminder of the Hammer film in score or any other element.
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Oh no, I get it. You're seeing an argument where there is none.

I was just tickled to the core at the sentiment "not copy + paste" being expressed in the same sentence as Horner's name. He copied and pasted a lot. I did a paper on his copying and pasting at school. I even argued for an equivalent to auteur theory for movie composers. Got an A.

I love Horner. And Williams. And Goldsmith, btw. It is just intrinsically hilarious juxtaposition "Horner" and not "Copy+Pasting". Top, top comedy.
 
Smiley said:
The Williams Superman theme was in five movies from 1978-2006, and multiple generations have enjoyed it. I would treat it like the Star Wars main title or the James Bond theme: pull it out when needed and/or appropriate, and put plenty of other new music in the new projects.
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The movies in question either starred Christopher Reeve or was a sequel to one of his movies (namely the 2006 movie). I don't see this as an excuse to use Williams' score in all Superman movies and TV shows.
 
Dee1891 said:
The movies in question either starred Christopher Reeve or was a sequel to one of his movies (namely the 2006 movie). I don't see this as an excuse to use Williams' score in all Superman movies and TV shows.
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I'm not advocating its use in all future Superman projects. That's why I used the words "needed" and "appropriate" in my post. Something that iconic should be in the composer's toolbox for the times that it makes sense to use it.

I consider First Contact as a good example of using classic and new themes well. The main title theme and Borg motifs stand out in the new music category, while the end credits transition into a triumphant version of the theme from Star Trek: The Next Generation to send you off with a rousing finish. You could do something like that in the next Superman movie.
 
Yep. Another example I can think of is David Arnold's excellent score for Casino Royale. It has wonderful, memorable musical motifs of its own (many building off the theme song, "You Know My Name," which Arnold co-wrote with Chris Cornell). But it also teased the classic "James Bond theme" at a couple of key points, before letting it slowly build and then burst fully forth in the final scene as Craig delivers the "Bond ... James Bond" line.

Arnold understood how original and iconic could work together to great effect.
 
The Knappos said:
Oh no, I get it. You're seeing an argument where there is none.
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I was just tickled to the core at the sentiment "not copy + paste" being expressed in the same sentence as Horner's name.
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Strawman, thy name is The Knappos. At no point, was the topic of Horner's re-use of his own work was an issue. At no point was the topic of Williams doing the same. The point--and "copy+paste" description--was a reference only to a Superman score composed for a specific production (Donner's) used for completely unrelated Superman productions instead of the new production group creating its own score for an utterly different Superman, as in the case of Zimmer for Man of Steel.

I love Horner. And Williams. And Goldsmith, btw.
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If any film composer could be labeled a genius, it is Goldsmith (with Herrmann and perhaps Korngold right at his side). Regarding Williams, I feel his best are not that which others would tend to cite, such as The Towering Inferno, Black Sunday, Dracula, The Fury, JFK, and much of his 1960s TV work.

Dee1891 said:
The movies in question either starred Christopher Reeve or was a sequel to one of his movies (namely the 2006 movie). I don't see this as an excuse to use Williams' score in all Superman movies and TV shows.
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Exactly. There is no "universal" or "definitive" theme or score for a character, particularly one who is constantly reinterpreted by very different artistic visions.
 
TREK_GOD_1 said:
Strawman, thy name is The Knappos. At no point, was the topic of Horner's re-use of his own work was an issue. At no point was the topic of Williams doing the same. The point--and "copy+paste" description--was a reference only to a Superman score composed for a specific production (Donner's) used for completely unrelated Superman productions instead of the new production group creating its own score for an utterly different Superman, as in the case of Zimmer for Man of Steel.



If any film composer could be labeled a genius, it is Goldsmith (with Herrmann and perhaps Korngold right at his side). Regarding Williams, I feel his best are not that which others would tend to cite, such as The Towering Inferno, Black Sunday, Dracula, The Fury, JFK, and much of his 1960s TV work.



Exactly. There is no "universal" or "definitive" theme or score for a character, particularly one who is constantly reinterpreted by very different artistic visions.
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The William Tell Overture?

The Balls on someone to try and one up that.
 
TREK_GOD_1 said:
Strawman, thy name is The Knappos. At no point, was the topic of Horner's re-use of his own work was an issue. At no point was the topic of Williams doing the same. The point--and "copy+paste" description--was a reference only to a Superman score composed for a specific production (Donner's) used for completely unrelated Superman productions instead of the new production group creating its own score for an utterly different Superman, as in the case of Zimmer for Man of Steel.



If any film composer could be labeled a genius, it is Goldsmith (with Herrmann and perhaps Korngold right at his side). Regarding Williams, I feel his best are not that which others would tend to cite, such as The Towering Inferno, Black Sunday, Dracula, The Fury, JFK, and much of his 1960s TV work.



Exactly. There is no "universal" or "definitive" theme or score for a character, particularly one who is constantly reinterpreted by very different artistic visions.
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Ok. Now you’re not just misreading accidentally but actively looking for an argument that isn’t there.

Quit shadow boxing.
 
Dee1891 said:
The movies in question either starred Christopher Reeve or was a sequel to one of his movies (namely the 2006 movie).
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Justice League (2017) also used the Williams score, and it was neither a Reeve movie nor a sequel to one. And I and others listed numerous non-Reeve Superman productions that have used the Williams theme earlier in the thread. At this point, the Williams theme is no longer bound to the Christopher Reeve version of the character.

I don't see this as an excuse to use Williams' score in all Superman movies and TV shows.
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I mean, they don't need an "excuse." They can chose to reuse it if they want to, or they can chose not to.

Hell, nobody here has even called for it to be re-used per se. If the next Superman film doesn't use it, whatever. All I've been saying is that the Williams theme has transcended its origins and just become part of the Superman mythos in general -- it's no longer a signifier of nostalgia for the Reeve films per se.

The Knappos said:
Ok. Now you’re not just misreading accidentally but actively looking for an argument that isn’t there.
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That's just TREK_GOD1's shtick.
 
Have any other productions, besides the LEGO DC game, reused Danny Elfman's Batman theme?
 
JD said:
Have any other productions, besides the LEGO DC game, reused Danny Elfman's Batman theme?
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It's not identical, but the Danny Elfman's theme for the 1989 film is very similar to the theme he composed for Batman: The Animated Series, which is damn near the most iconic version of Batman ever produced. So I would say a strong argument can be made that the Elfman theme(s) have transcended the 1989 film per se.
 
JD said:
Have any other productions, besides the LEGO DC game, reused Danny Elfman's Batman theme?
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It's used in the theatrical Justice League, in the Arrowverse's "Crisis on Infinite Earths," and in DC League of Super-Pets. That's to my knowledge and off the top of my head; there may be other instances.
 
Smiley said:
I'm not advocating its use in all future Superman projects. That's why I used the words "needed" and "appropriate" in my post. Something that iconic should be in the composer's toolbox for the times that it makes sense to use it.

I consider First Contact as a good example of using classic and new themes well. The main title theme and Borg motifs stand out in the new music category, while the end credits transition into a triumphant version of the theme from Star Trek: The Next Generation to send you off with a rousing finish. You could do something like that in the next Superman movie.
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"First Contact"? You mean "Star Trek First Contact"? Which is officially part of the Star Trek franchise?

Williams' Superman theme was only associated with the Chris Reeve movies and the Brandon Routh sequel. I still see no need to use it in other Superman movie and television productions outside of those movies.

As for Danny Elfman's Batman theme used in other DC productions about the Caped Crusader, outside of the 1989-1997 movies . . . I didn't care for that either. It's not even my favorite Batman theme. Nor did I care for the movies that much.
 
Dee1891 said:
Williams' Superman theme was only associated with the Chris Reeve movies and the Brandon Routh sequel. I still see no need to use it in other Superman movie and television productions outside of those movies.
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Obviously. The Salkind's Superman & Supergirl movies and Singer's Routh disaster were films were an isolated series with no connection to other adaptations, thus its music also has no connection (or place) in current Superman adaptations, just as Post & Carpenter's 1979 Captain America TV movie scores were never going to be heard in the MCU's Cap films.

As for Danny Elfman's Batman theme used in other DC productions about the Caped Crusader, outside of the 1989-1997 movies . . . I didn't care for that either. It's not even my favorite Batman theme. Nor did I care for the movies that much.
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:bolian:
 
Just because something came from one movie, doesn't mean it can't surpass that one movie to become representative of that character or franchise in general. I think it's safe to safe at this point the Chris Reeve Superman theme has done that, the same way the Batman '66 theme has for him, and the theme from the '60s Spider-Man cartoon has for him. And going outside of superheroes we've got the Indiana Jones and James Bone themes.
 
TREK_GOD_1 said:
Oh, please--that's what you were doing by arguing against a point no one presented or even hinted at.
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Like when you spent several pages' worth of this thread arguing against the idea that the next Superman movie should reprise the Williams theme when no one said or implied that it had to?

Dee1891 said:
Williams' Superman theme was only associated with the Chris Reeve movies and the Brandon Routh sequel.
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No. As noted on pages 80 and 81 of this thread, the Williams theme has been used in at least ten different productions besides the Reeve series and Superman Returns.

I still see no need to use it in other Superman movie and television productions outside of those movies.
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There is no need to reuse it. It would be a completely legitimate creative choice to go for something totally new and different.

All I and others are saying is, the Williams theme is no longer bound exclusively to the Reeve/Routh movies. It's an element of the franchise that can stand for the character in general rather than just that particular version(s).
 
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