Superman

[Dee1891]

There's nothing "astonishing" about Williams' Superman score. The shameless copy+pasting of work created for an older project reaches only one conclusion: a lack of originality and creativity in an approach to new projects. It is the same, glassy-eyed lack of creativity which prodded Singer to create an entire film living from the fumes of another work, and its poor reception was the expected response. That applies to the score as much as what passed for a script and what was trotted in front of cameras. Horner was working on a film that was part of a continuing series, yet his score was not some slavish fanboy tribute to the near universally known Courage theme at all. He--like any composer assigned to a new project--had a job to do, and that did not mean drop to the knees and copy+paste work from an unrelated production.

You can worship the Williams music until doomsday, but Superman as a concept, or music which represents him--is not chained to, nor defined by the Salkind's production (thankfully), and any aggressive attempts to bond him to it leads to something never desired by audiences and ultimately rejected, such as the Singer film.

If Gunn has an ounce of sense in his head, he will define his Superman film as an original work, not lose any sense of creativity by grafting the memory of an old production to his own.




Agreed. Williams himself never borrowed or felt the need to stitch James Bernard's powerful, unprecedented score for Horror of Dracula (1958) to his own for Dracula (1979). Williams' Dracula was specific to that film, and despite how magnificent and memorable the entire composition was, the next major Dracula film--Francis Coppola's Bram Stoker's Dracula (1992)--did not refer to it at all.

Recognizing the need to create an original score for original work is common sense. There's no mass outcry from audiences who want to be reminded of unrelated productions.



Well put. Similar to how Rupert Gregson-Williams' score for Wonder Woman (2017) was an entirely unique work--perfectly fit for a new approach to the character, hence the reason no one in their right mind was going to refer to Charles Fox's very popular theme from the '76-'79 Wonder Woman TV series in the film. Any attempt to do so would have been nothing more than fanservice completely out of tone, intent and sync with said new approach to the character, one with no connection to that TV series.

I believe that Williams' score for the 1978 Superman movie is excellent. But like you, I believe it belongs with the films that starred Christopher Reeve or any films from the same universe. Attaching this score to any other movie featuring someone else's Superman or outside of that particular universe seems like a slavish example of fan service, the nostalgic factor or worse, both.

 

[JD]

I remembered another use of the Williams theme, in the third LEGO Batman anytime you take flight while playing as Superman, the Williams theme plays.

 

[YLu]

Wow, it’s almost as if it’s really popular. Go fig.

 

[ichab]

Go back in time and bring the internet with you. I wasn't there but bet it would have been similar. Give them twitter, especially.

Oh man, I could only imagine what the 70s would have looked like with 24/7 world news, the internet and social media. It's something I have to remind older members of my family every time I hear "This wasn't a problem in my day." No, it was a problem, you just didn't hear about it because people didn't know much of what was going on outside their local new station or newspaper.

 

[Set Harth]

Attaching this score to any other movie featuring someone else's Superman or outside of that particular universe seems like a slavish example of fan service, the nostalgic factor or worse, both.

It feels particularly out of place in the theatrical Justice League.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I absolutely cannot take this ridiculous hyperbolic attack on the greatest living film composer seriously enough to even read the rest of your post. Have fun repeating nonsense that doesn't reflect reality.

Your childish fan-worship of Williams is all anyone needs to realize you are--typically--incapable of grasping reality, which includes the fact there's no such thing as a "universally applicable" creation. It has never existed and thankfully, that will never be the case for artists who have their own creative vision, and develop that--which does not include falling to their knees to copy+paste the work of another on unrelated projects, proven throughout film history (in the examples provided). To say you do not have even a passing flirtation with said history would be the understatement of this century.

IBut like you, I believe it belongs with the films that starred Christopher Reeve or any films from the same universe. Attaching this score to any other movie featuring someone else's Superman or outside of that particular universe seems like a slavish example of fan service, the nostalgic factor or worse, both.

Well put. Whether the film was Man of Steel, Wonder Woman, or the referenced Dracula films, each lived up to the need of artists to create original work and not waived arms to self-erected "icons" / using their work on something with no connection to the new creation. But we must understand, slavish fanboy mentalities often lead to an astounding lack of creativity (see: the entire Singer Superman film), hence the argument to paste the Williams music to every Superman project.

We can be grateful Zimmer never suffered from that problem.

 

[Sci]

Your childish fan-worship of Williams is all anyone needs to realize you are--typically--incapable of grasping reality, which includes the fact there's no such thing as a "universally applicable" creation. It has never existed and thankfully, that will never be the case for artists who have their own creative vision, and develop that--which does not include falling to their knees to copy+paste the work of another on unrelated projects, proven throughout film history (in the examples provided). To say you do not have even a passing flirtation with said history would be the understatement of this century.

Your commitment to the bit is delightful. Trash Mister Rogers next! It'll be hysterical!

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Your need to place a man on a pedestal for your flock of one (and display your ignorance of the meaning of creativity) is quite pathetic, but expected.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Your need to place a man on a pedestal for your flock of one (and display your ignorance of the meaning of creativity) is quite pathetic, but expected.

Putting a lad that old on a pedestal is foolish, since he's likely to break a hip getting down, even if he sticks the landing.

 

[Sci]

Your need to place a man on a pedestal for your flock of one (and display your ignorance of the meaning of creativity) is quite pathetic, but expected.

 

[publiusr]

Putting a lad that old on a pedestal is foolish, since he's likely to break a hip getting down, even if he sticks the landing.

We’re coming Mrs Fletcher

 

[The Knappos]

Horner was working on a film that was part of a continuing series, yet his score was not some slavish fanboy tribute to the near universally known Courage theme at all. He--like any composer assigned to a new project--had a job to do, and that did not mean drop to the knees and copy+paste work from an unrelated production.

I just laughed so hard I prolapsed at the irony of citing Horner, the BIGGEST self-plagiarist copy and paster in the game, in this way.
I’ll send you my medical bill, but thanks for the laugh.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Re-using and swiping is a common thing with composers, especially film composers, and even the greatest did it. Monty Norman re-used the tune of "Bad Sign, Good Sign", which he wrote for the stage musical "A House for Mr. Biswas" for arguably the most iconic piece of film music:

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And Nino Rota's score for "The Godfather" was disqualified from the Oscars because he re-used his theme from 1958's "Fortunella":

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So complaining about John Williams or James Horner is both equally silly.

 

[Dee1891]

Apparently, there are some who want WB to continue using John Williams' Superman score. And there are others, like myself, who think the studio should move on. I guess we can all agree to disagree.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I just laughed so hard I prolapsed at the irony of citing Horner, the BIGGEST self-plagiarist copy and paster in the game, in this way.
I’ll send you my medical bill, but thanks for the laugh.

Your post is what occurs when one fails to grasp the nature of a discussion. No one was complaining about self-plagiarism. Not at any point, so where you're pulling that from is...well...

The fact remains that Horner used the opening of Courage's incredibly well-known TOS theme in the introduction of his TWOK main and end credits, but did not base his entire, original score on Courage or any other composer who contributed to TOS, despite the film being part of the same series. This stands on the opposite side of those who are so pie-eyed on Williams' score (and film, by association), that the artistic benefit of not using a theme specifically created for a character in an equally specific production flies over their Williams-besotted heads. As noted days ago, as memorable, popular and effective James Bernard's Horror of Dracula had been, Williams' Dracula score was an original work--as it needed to be, since the film was a separate creation despite using the same main character. The '79 film was not living in the creative shadow of, or serving as a constant reminder of the Hammer film in score or any other element.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Putting a lad that old on a pedestal is foolish, since he's likely to break a hip getting down, even if he sticks the landing.

Apparently, there are some who want WB to continue using John Williams' Superman score. And there are others, like myself, who think the studio should move on. I guess we can all agree to disagree.

Which is the natural creative process, hence the reason the DCEU's Wonder Woman established its own...everything, including the score, and was not going to refer to the Charles Fox music from the TV series. Clearly, an original work paid off when it was not dropping to the knees to regurgitate the elements of some old production.

 

[Smiley]

The Williams Superman theme was in five movies from 1978-2006, and multiple generations have enjoyed it. I would treat it like the Star Wars main title or the James Bond theme: pull it out when needed and/or appropriate, and put plenty of other new music in the new projects.

 

[Sci]

Which is the natural creative process, hence the reason the DCEU's Wonder Woman established its own...everything, including the score, and was not going to refer to the Charles Fox music from the TV series. Clearly, an original work paid off when it was not dropping to the knees to regurgitate the elements of some old production.

For whatever it's worth, I think Hans Zimmerman's Wonder Woman theme is also pretty damn iconic and would favor reprising it in future Wonder Woman appearances, whether or not it's a DCEU film or Gal Gadot is playing her.

 

[Set Harth]

The Williams Superman theme was in five movies from 1978-2006

And a certain thing in 2017...

 

[theenglish]

Apparently, there are some who want WB to continue using John Williams' Superman score. And there are others, like myself, who think the studio should move on. I guess we can all agree to disagree.

I'm good with that. In the end, the only thing that will be important is if the score is any good or not. And what cool, underrated songs the movie has in the soundtrack.