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Superman

TREK_GOD_1 said:
IOW, he was no goody two-shoes saluting and doing the government's will with a smile which is at the heart of the false "Boy Scout" fantasy dreamed up by certain fans.
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Nah. They're basically the same character expressed in slightly different ways. And if you think anyone's arguing that Supes must necessarily obey the government to be a wholesome character, you have fundamentally misunderstood the argument I and others are making about him.
 
Disobeying the government was but one of the points noted which distinguish Captain America from the fantasized "Boy Scout" myth.
 
TREK_GOD_1 said:
Exactly. The MCU Cap (the Rogers version) was not the "Boy Scout" dream of some fans. Despite fighting vintage and current Nazis or successors, he routinely imposed his will on others to achieve goals, had no problem using lethal force (notably preventing Bucky from killing guards to prevent Barnes from piling on his alleged guilt), accused SHEILD of employing fear to cotrol the population, and was at the heart of the conflict over the accords in Civil War. IOW, he was no goody two-shoes saluting and doing the government's will with a smile which is at the heart of the false "Boy Scout" fantasy dreamed up by certain fans.
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Rogers was standing up for American values of Freedom, Liberty, Justice for All, etc. The point of his stories was that the institutions had become (or always were) corrupt and he was fighting for what is traditionally declared to be American values. I think fighting the government and SHIELD/HYDRA make him even more upstanding and good. It is the term "boy scout" I have a problem with as the Scouts attempt to indoctrinate boys into being loyal to the flag (of whichever country they are in) and to God (meaning the church). In that sense, Rogers is the furthest thing from a boy scout.
 
Neither Captain America nor Superman have ever been brainless "Boy Scouts". Whoever says that never bothered really reading their stories.

It's right up there with how certain folks say that Cap is jingoistic. He's about as anti-Jingoist as you can get.
 
Anwar said:
Neither Captain America nor Superman have ever been brainless "Boy Scouts". Whoever says that never bothered really reading their stories.

It's right up there with how certain folks say that Cap is jingoistic. He's about as anti-Jingoist as you can get.
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This idea originates from the comics of the fifties.
 
theenglish said:
This idea originates from the comics of the fifties.
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Which is bizarre, because Cap was at his most brutal in the 1950s to the point that they had to explain that it was a different person acting as Cap.

Superman wasn't much of a Boy Scout in those comics either, with all the bizarre and rather sick mind games he was playing on people.
 
TREK_GOD_1 said:
Disobeying the government was but one of the points noted which distinguish Captain America from the fantasized "Boy Scout" myth.
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I have no problem whatsoever with a Superman who, in the course of embodying Truth and Justice, decides that the government is corrupt and must be defied. In fact, I think a story where Superman realizes that serving the cause of Truth, Justice, and the American Way means defying the American government would be a very good premise for a Superman film.
 
When you can’t actually effectively argue your point, argue with a made up straw man instead. That’s the internet way!
 
theenglish said:
This idea originates from the comics of the fifties.
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...and its an idea relentlessly championed by those who want to use that "Boy Scout" idea as a model for a "good" Superman adaptation, when the post-Weisinger editors and writers aggressively left the Weisinger aberration behind, and for good reason shared by the readers.
 
TREK_GOD_1 said:
...and its an idea relentlessly championed by those who want to use that "Boy Scout" idea as a model for a "good" Superman adaptation, when the post-Weisinger editors and writers aggressively left the Weisinger aberration behind, and for good reason shared by the readers.
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Superman's character should be a direct relationship to when in time Johnathan Kent built his value system.

The Dust bowl vs the last days of disco vs. Trump's trade war with China during the covid pandemic.

In 20 to thirty years Johnathan and Martha are going to have been Trumpites, who took 4 year old Clark to the Jan 6 rally.

On Family Guy last night Stewie said "Yes, I was at the Riot, but I didn't go inside the capitol."
 
Mr. Adventure said:
No, no, Superman must be an oh shucks boy scout or an alien god removed from humanity, there is no in between.
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“Mr. Smith Goes to Washington” was pretty “aw-shucks.”

Guy Gardener said:
Superman's character should be a direct relationship to when in time Johnathan Kent built his value system.

The Dust bowl vs the last days of disco vs. Trump's trade war with China during the covid pandemic.

In 20 to thirty years Johnathan and Martha are going to have been Trumpites, who took 4 year old Clark to the Jan 6 rally.
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Demographics aren’t destiny. Even in the most politically homogenized areas of America, around a third of people still hold the minority viewpoint. It’s not just living in Kansas, the Kents have to be big enough nerds to drive out to see a meteor, open-minded enough to not report an undocumented space-baby to the government (forget anchor-babies, now they’re sending over orbit-babies!), counter-cultural enough to falsify documents to protect that space-baby…
 
Guy Gardener said:
Superman's character should be a direct relationship to when in time Johnathan Kent built his value system.

The Dust bowl vs the last days of disco vs. Trump's trade war with China during the covid pandemic.

In 20 to thirty years Johnathan and Martha are going to have been Trumpites, who took 4 year old Clark to the Jan 6 rally.
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No. Jonathan and Martha Kent are good people, not fascists.
 
You can keep Superman as a “Lawful good” archetype while allowing him to start recognizing the moral complexities of the world he lives in.

There’s a neat story to be told when Superman realizes if he just reacts to prevent violence what he’s really doing is enforcing the power of those with the means not to need violence to get what they want. And starts looking for a way to stand up for everyone without continuing to act as enforcer or compromising his ideals.

A Superman who starts to notice the difference between law and morality could be a fun one to watch.
 
I’m imagining an opening where Superman intervenes to stop a mugging. He takes the mugger to the police station thinking as his first offense and nobody got hurt he’ll just go to juvenile hall for a year or two, then the judge decides to make an example and gives a huge sentence to fill a private prison quota. So he starts to doubt what he’s doing and grapple with the idea he could go in and use his power to fix it but it’d make him into the same kind of monster he fights against.
 
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