Superman
- Thread starter urbandefault
- Start date
It's just a a slight tangent related to the topic at hand.
Apologies, shouldn't have appointed myself thread cop.
It's just I've been greatly enjoying this topic, and hoped it wasn't about to drift into 12 pages on Captain Kirk (which, admit it, could totally happen).
Psst. It’s because he wasn’t “Prime Kirk”.
To bring it back to Superman, I very much enjoy Kelvin Kirk for the same reason I enjoy Cavill Superman—because they aren’t slavishly following the “main version”. YMMV
A lot of the tone of Superman reflected the comics of the time. I enjoyed that modern take. I also enjoyed the idea of Superman having to make the choice to become Superman. His attempts to work from the shadows were reminiscent of the themes of Smallville. The final battle took me out of my enjoyment of the movie because I found the slaughter of thousands to be quite triggering for me, and because Superman should have been able to think his way out of the problem as he has always done in the comics. The ending was poor writing on Snyder's part.
Completely spot on.
Yep, that's a very nice short. And directed by ... Zack Snyder!
100 percent agree. Cap and Superman are very similar in that regard, and Cap is proof that Superman can work when written well.
I don't think Cap's success was due to his being displaced in time. It was due to his values, and Cap's values still exist today. The fact that he holds to them is what makes him so special.
And that's where they MISSED the point, because Superman is NOT in the real world.
Iconic heroes like Superman are creatures of our collective dreams. Their function in popular culture is not to inhabit the real world, but to help us imagine a better one.
It's Reeve for me all the way, totally accept this is a generational/age thing (I'm 45). I think Superman '78 is still right up there with the best superhero films of all time, and I also think the 1980 sequel is too (but to a slightly lesser extent). Sure it's dated now but I don't think the culture impact of this movie can be understated. For me it might not be quite the best superhero movie ever made (though for a lot of years it was) but it's certainly the most important. For me it still has a sense of wonder that's rarely been matched since, and that's before we get to Reeves outstanding performance and that iconic score.
The sequel is arguably more entertaining (I liked it more than the original as a kid) but you can see now how uneven it is in parts where Lester directed after Donner got fired. The fight scenes in the Donner cut of this movie are excellent, I'd love a version of this film that amalgamates the two versions, either way, the troubled production of this film was where the wheels started falling off the franchise.
Superman III has some merit - the junkyard scene is still great and the film has some other good moments too. I still watch it from time to time but it's a large downgrade in quality from the first two.
Superman IV is one of the worst films ever made. I've seen it a few times and that's enough. An absolute embarrassment on practically every level.
I enjoyed the Dean Cain version of Superman, but it was largely disposable compared to some of the movie versions for me, I have no desire to re-watch.
Superman Returns I thought was pretty good. Routh's performance was great but Kate Bosworth was terribly miscast as Lois Lane, especially as we were supposed to buy into this being a sequel of sorts to Superman II. I enjoyed the nostalgia, score and the FX, but it just didn't quite work together as a whole and was a bit bland in parts and was lacking in action too.
Man of Steel I think is probably the best of the current crop of DC movies, and is chock full of action and great FX, and I very much like Cavill as Superman and Shannon as Zod too. I think they made a mistake by jumping straight into the mediocre Batman vs Superman instead of doing a sequel to this and a standalone Batman movie.
I remember seeing some of the older interpretations as a child but I haven't seen them since, so it's the first two Reeve movies that captured my imagination the most still to this day.
The sequel is arguably more entertaining (I liked it more than the original as a kid) but you can see now how uneven it is in parts where Lester directed after Donner got fired. The fight scenes in the Donner cut of this movie are excellent, I'd love a version of this film that amalgamates the two versions, either way, the troubled production of this film was where the wheels started falling off the franchise.
Superman III has some merit - the junkyard scene is still great and the film has some other good moments too. I still watch it from time to time but it's a large downgrade in quality from the first two.
Superman IV is one of the worst films ever made. I've seen it a few times and that's enough. An absolute embarrassment on practically every level.
I enjoyed the Dean Cain version of Superman, but it was largely disposable compared to some of the movie versions for me, I have no desire to re-watch.
Superman Returns I thought was pretty good. Routh's performance was great but Kate Bosworth was terribly miscast as Lois Lane, especially as we were supposed to buy into this being a sequel of sorts to Superman II. I enjoyed the nostalgia, score and the FX, but it just didn't quite work together as a whole and was a bit bland in parts and was lacking in action too.
Man of Steel I think is probably the best of the current crop of DC movies, and is chock full of action and great FX, and I very much like Cavill as Superman and Shannon as Zod too. I think they made a mistake by jumping straight into the mediocre Batman vs Superman instead of doing a sequel to this and a standalone Batman movie.
I remember seeing some of the older interpretations as a child but I haven't seen them since, so it's the first two Reeve movies that captured my imagination the most still to this day.
Superman 78 is only dated in some of the effects. But the core of the character is not dated at all.
From Superman II--"This super man is nothing of the kind. I've discovered his weakness. He cares."
This is a statement that should hold true for every incarnation of Superman. He cares. This is a man who had god like abilities and he choose to help people. Superman's biggest power is that he inspires others to be good.
Yes--that sense of wonder.
There is so much evil in the world both in reality and in fiction--that Superman stands up against that--that is a timeless character trait and something that all other superheros aspire to be.
He is the hero of heroes.
And those traits CAN be modernized without being lost.
I thought Dean Cain did capture Superman's good nature, even as he played a more vulnerable version of the character both physically AND mentally. Superman isn't perfect except when he has to be.
In the comics, Superman's battle with Doomsday, where he literally laid down his life for his adopted planet combines everything great about the character with the time where he finally lets loose because he has no choice.
There was a point in the battle where Superman had Doomsday on the ropes. While he likely may not have won at that point, he may have ended the threat then and there. But earlier in the battle, the two crashed into someone's house, setting it on fire, and Superman heard a kid crying for help. Superman stopped the battle, left Doomsday and went and saved those people--because THAT is Superman.
And when it came down to it, the entire Justice League lost in a fight to Doomsday and Superman was all that was left. And he won.
In the 1996 cartoon, they set up Darkseid's invasion brilliantly. Superman fought a tough battle against Kalibak, and when he first met Darkseid, Darkseid knocked him down with his beams without even moving. Then treating Superman like a fly, he simply backed away and went back to Apokolips saving the big battle for another day.
Darkseid is as powerful if not more powerful than Superman. Only when Superman lets loose can he hurt Darkseid or beat him. But Superman isn't trained for that.
What makes Darkseid so amazing is that he was able to hurt Superman in ways no one else could.
He invaded Earth, but Superman inspired humanity to fight back, led by Dan Turpin--a cop with guts. And unlike most superhero stories where the humans/cops/military not named Batman suck and sit back while the superheroes save the day, here, the humans were effective and held their own.
Darkseid had the upper hand and the battle was lost, but humanity didn't give up. Even when Superman himself looked beaten, Turpin's rebellion, inspired by Superman, actually freed Superman, and inspired HIM.
With Superman ready to fight to the death, the battle was broken up by the New Gods, but here's where Darkseid won. With everyone elated that Darkseid was going, he murdered Dan Turpin, sending Superman into a horrible rage. You felt Superman's pain.
THAT was writing. THAT was Superman at its finest, and he didn't even win.
From Superman II--"This super man is nothing of the kind. I've discovered his weakness. He cares."
This is a statement that should hold true for every incarnation of Superman. He cares. This is a man who had god like abilities and he choose to help people. Superman's biggest power is that he inspires others to be good.
Yes--that sense of wonder.
There is so much evil in the world both in reality and in fiction--that Superman stands up against that--that is a timeless character trait and something that all other superheros aspire to be.
He is the hero of heroes.
And those traits CAN be modernized without being lost.
I thought Dean Cain did capture Superman's good nature, even as he played a more vulnerable version of the character both physically AND mentally. Superman isn't perfect except when he has to be.
In the comics, Superman's battle with Doomsday, where he literally laid down his life for his adopted planet combines everything great about the character with the time where he finally lets loose because he has no choice.
There was a point in the battle where Superman had Doomsday on the ropes. While he likely may not have won at that point, he may have ended the threat then and there. But earlier in the battle, the two crashed into someone's house, setting it on fire, and Superman heard a kid crying for help. Superman stopped the battle, left Doomsday and went and saved those people--because THAT is Superman.
And when it came down to it, the entire Justice League lost in a fight to Doomsday and Superman was all that was left. And he won.
In the 1996 cartoon, they set up Darkseid's invasion brilliantly. Superman fought a tough battle against Kalibak, and when he first met Darkseid, Darkseid knocked him down with his beams without even moving. Then treating Superman like a fly, he simply backed away and went back to Apokolips saving the big battle for another day.
Darkseid is as powerful if not more powerful than Superman. Only when Superman lets loose can he hurt Darkseid or beat him. But Superman isn't trained for that.
What makes Darkseid so amazing is that he was able to hurt Superman in ways no one else could.
He invaded Earth, but Superman inspired humanity to fight back, led by Dan Turpin--a cop with guts. And unlike most superhero stories where the humans/cops/military not named Batman suck and sit back while the superheroes save the day, here, the humans were effective and held their own.
Darkseid had the upper hand and the battle was lost, but humanity didn't give up. Even when Superman himself looked beaten, Turpin's rebellion, inspired by Superman, actually freed Superman, and inspired HIM.
With Superman ready to fight to the death, the battle was broken up by the New Gods, but here's where Darkseid won. With everyone elated that Darkseid was going, he murdered Dan Turpin, sending Superman into a horrible rage. You felt Superman's pain.
THAT was writing. THAT was Superman at its finest, and he didn't even win.
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That's the thing though. Superman didn't really want to kill Batman. He was hoping that a few good punches and some heroic posturing would convince Batman that he was outmatched and back down. Batman, on the other hand, was out for blood, which gave him an edge. And he was able to take advantage of the fact that Superman was cocky. I love the bit where Batman fires a regular smoke grenade at Superman, then fires a 2nd grenade that Superman catches because he's trying to look cool, only to get a facefull of Kryptonite gas. That's Batman using his brains to use Superman's overconfidence against him.
There are a lot of action movies these days where jittery cameras are a huge problem. But I don't think that they Henry Cavill movies have that problem. I was almost always able to follow the action. The only time that I couldn't was during the Doomsday fight in Batman v. Superman. Even then, I think it had more to do with Doomsday constantly exploding, which made it difficult for me to keep track of where everyone was relative to each other.
But I'm actually pretty fond of Superman's fights with General Zod in Man of Steel. The best part of that movie was showing what a fight between 2 beings of this kind of power level would really look like.
I agree that Captain America has done a much better job with that kind of straight-faced heroism than the DCEU has with Superman. But I think that has less to do with the interpretation of the characters and more to do with the tone of the movies. The Captain America movies, even while depicting a compromised world, still have an uplifting tone that ultimately affirms Captain America's worldview.
Meanwhile, on paper, putting Superman in conflict with a more cynical world is exactly what Man of Steel & Batman v. Superman were trying to do. But those movies were so dour that Superman rarely had a chance to triumph. The only genuinely uplifting Superman moment comes in the middle of Man of Steel when he takes his first flight. That scene is one of the only times that Snyder truly captured the joy & hope of Superman. The rest of the time....
Much as I admire Snyder's filmmaking skills, I think he's too dark & cynical to make a Superman movie. He's perfect for Batman and seems to be still working through some of the questions raised by Watchmen. But he's got no business making a Superman movie.
I was 7 years old and my dad took me to see this and bought me this huge program they were selling at the theater which my mom hated because it had this big picture of Miss Teschmacher and her cleavage.
I can relate. When I was 9 years old, my mom forbade me from seeing Batman Returns because of Catwoman's skintight outfit. (And when I was 12, she wouldn't let me get Star Trek: Generations action figures of Lursa & B'Etor because of the cleavage.)Maybe try editing it so that the actual quotes aren't in QUOTE code?
That makes me smile!
I love the respect for the classics. It's like how, even after 3 Kelvin timeline movies, most of the Star Trek merch I see still has Shatner! 
He is pretty good in The Witcher as well.
Cavill was made to play a modern Napoleon Solo.
He's pretty good in The Man from U.N.C.L.E. Think he might could be a good Bond, too.
I can't really warm to him as Superman, I'm afraid. It's not just Snyder, either. Even in Joss Whedon's Justice League (because regardless of what the opening credits say, that's what the released film is), where there's an unsubtle effort to be all like, "Snyderman? What Snyderman?" and make Superman more folksy and fun, Cavill still comes off as a bit of a stiff.
The only scenes in any of his DCEU films where he really achieves a convincing simulacrum of life are opposite Amy Adams, and that's because Adams brings enough humanity for the both of them.
My favorite screen Supermen: Reeves, Reeve, Routh, Hoechlin.
