Superman

[Guy Gardener]

I think the best example of why it's better to have women direct movies focused on a woman or women, is how Harley Quinn is handled in the first Suicide Squad movie vs how she is handled in Birds of Prey, and the Amazons in Wonder Woman vs the theatrical version of Justice League.
Yes, men have made good movies and TV shows about women, but they are still approaching their stories as outsiders, and don't have the kind of insights into being a woman than a woman would have.
And to go back Whedon and Buffy, it's worth keeping in mind that the show had several women as writers and producers, so there we did get the authentic female perspective on the show.
I've been working my way through Neuromancer and Eye of the World, and William Gibson and Robtert Jordan are perfect examples of men who clearly had no idea how to write believable woman. Some of their scenes with women characters are almost hard to read, especially after reading books in the Kate Daniels and Desert Cursed series, which were both written by women.

So you think a rigid class system is the way to go?

You remember that it was a woman, Marti Noxon, who so enraged the cast so much, that they walked out and quit?

It's only because of lawyers that they were all forced to come back for the last season, after Joss Whedon calmed everyone down.

See!

He's good for something.

 

[suarezguy]

And to go back Whedon and Buffy, it's worth keeping in mind that the show had several women as writers and producers, so there we did get the authentic female perspective on the show.

Good writers do tend to embrace collaboration, trying to get at least some diversity and sharing credit.

 

[plynch]

I'll go look for some good anecdotal evidence to bolster my opinion.

brb

 

[dupersuper]

I guess I always assumed that Amazons don't even have romance or sex.

...Did you think they were robots?

Listen, I love Die Hard but it has definitely got some 1980s misogyny going. The entire movie is about how a tough, blue-collar all-American guy has to save his poor, helpless wife (who had oh-so-unjustly rejected him) from evildoers. Holly is such a non-entity with so little agency in that film that she might as well be a sexy lamp for all the effect her status as a human being actually has on the story.

We may have watched different Die Hards...

 

[Guy Gardener]

...Did you think they were robots?

Penelopee waited for 20 years, for her dead husband, Odysseus to come back to life and murder her 40 suitors, who only wanted her for the land she owned.

Also the legends dropped off that 1920s silent film star to 2000 bc Themyscira, and I doubt she knew shit about preserving the time line.

That could explain their random advanced technology we see haphazardly.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Where did Wonder Woman get an invisible jet when no one else in the world had jets?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Where did Wonder Woman get an invisible jet when no one else in the world had jets?

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[JD]

So you think a rigid class system is the way to go?

Of course not, but if you are telling a story from a certain type of person's perspective, it's best to actually get that type of person to tell the story.
I realize now that my other post sounded like I was saying no man should ever write a woman, and that is obviously not the case. There plenty of men out there who can write good women characters, but if you are telling a story from a solely from a woman's perspective it's tends to be a good idea to get a woman to tell it, or at least have a woman involved in it.

You remember that it was a woman, Marti Noxon, who so enraged the cast so much, that they walked out and quit?
It's only because of lawyers that they were all forced to come back for the last season, after Joss Whedon calmed everyone down.

See!

He's good for something.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. People were talking about him doing a good job on Buffy, and I was just pointing that there were women involved with the writing, so it wasn't all just from Whedon's male perspective.

Good writers do tend to embrace collaboration, trying to get at least some diversity and sharing credit.

Of course, and despite his personal issues, Whedon is a good writer.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Theat least have a woman re plenty of men out there who can write good women characters, but if you are telling a story from a solely from a woman's perspective it's tends to be a good idea to get a woman to tell it, or at least have a woman involved in it.

Agreed. While my favorite version of Wonder Woman is the George Pérez run, he himself has always pointed out that he (and the other male writers during his run, Greg Potter and Len Wein) had a lot of help, from Pérez' wife Carol Flynn, editors Janice Race and Karen Bergen, and eventual co-writer Mindy Newell.

On the other hand, Denny O'Neil thought he was contributing to feminism with his revamp of Wonder Woman in the late 60s, and was quite shocked at the negative reactions from female fans. To his credit, he reacted the way a writer being confronted with their own blind spots should react, he listened and learned.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I heard Disco renamed Star Trek Diversity as a slur I didn't realize how out of whack a lot of people are being against all that, isn't that the spirit of original Trek?

 

[Aragorn]

I heard Disco renamed Star Trek Diversity as a slur I didn't realize how out of whack a lot of people are being against all that, isn't that the spirit of original Trek?

When Ian McKellen was cast in X-Men, a lot of internet loudmouths (such as it was back then) were upset that a gay man was cast as Magneto.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

When Ian McKellen was cast in X-Men, a lot of internet loudmouths (such as it was back then) were upset that a gay man was cast as Magneto.

Exactly the kind of thing I mean.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ian wasn't going to do X2 until he read the scene where Iceman came out to his parents.

Mutant oppression is a metaphor for just about any other appression there is.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm watching Sex and the City with my wife.

We just got through the one where vanilla and Conservative Charlotte tries to join an elite clique of Manhatten Lesbians, while forgetting to mention how straight she is.

Valeris explains "You can't expect to join Wonder Woman's Island and not go native."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Where did Wonder Woman get an invisible jet when no one else in the world had jets?

Depends on which Earth you're talking about. Linky

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Depends on which Earth you're talking about. Linky

OH that ...... Yeah always some silly explanation. lol

 

[STEPhon IT]

Oh, good God. Heterosexual romantic elements have been a thing in superhero comics since literally the first superhero comic (a little book called Action Comics #1, introducing the most enduring love story in comics, Superman and Lois Lane). Wonder Woman's first story also introduced Steve Trevor as a romantic interest for her.

The claim that romantic and sexual elements are out of place in superhero stories is always code for "LGBTQ+ elements are out of place in superhero stories." Which is an indefensible stance.

No wonder the comic is failing, its because their focus on readers like you who are too old for the material. Different writers who lost focus, are in the same plane, on what the books were about, what I know of the characters they're good friends. Steve has always shown affection for her, though because she's beautiful and she saved his life countless times becoming his guardian angel. I guess when the focus is toward an older audience who hasn't seemed to accept titles like Wonder Woman was for young readers; the material has to grow in the mere reflections for the declining base who continue to get older and decline.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

No wonder the comic is failing, ...

It isn't, though. In fact, Wonder Woman comics are so popular, it went twice-a-month for several recent years, and DC keeps churning out several one-shots and mini-series starring Wonder Woman (plus one current spin-off mini-series "Nubia & the Amazons", which introduced trans-women Amazons btw) in addition to the regular title.

... its because their focus on readers like you who are too old for the material.

Yeah, it's those young readers who hate all that inclusivity stuff. Right.

Different writers who lost focus, are in the same plane, on what the books were about, what I know of the characters they're good friends. Steve has always shown affection for her, though because she's beautiful and she saved his life countless times becoming his guardian angel. I guess when the focus is toward an older audience who hasn't seemed to accept titles like Wonder Woman was for young readers; the material has to grow in the mere reflections for the declining base who continue to get older and decline.

The final issue of the pre-Crisis Wonder Woman back in 1985 - before the George Pérez reboot - featured the wedding of Diana and Steve Trevor.

And the target age demographic for comics has shifted for a long time. And there are all ages comics with the DC superheroes, including Wonder Woman, out there, DC actually expanded their focus of young readers in the last few years.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No wonder the comic is failing, its because their focus on readers like you who are too old for the material. Different writers who lost focus, are in the same plane, on what the books were about, what I know of the characters they're good friends. Steve has always shown affection for her, though because she's beautiful and she saved his life countless times becoming his guardian angel. I guess when the focus is toward an older audience who hasn't seemed to accept titles like Wonder Woman was for young readers; the material has to grow in the mere reflections for the declining base who continue to get older and decline.

Sounds like psychohistory.

 

[Sci]

I've thought for a long time that the comics industry needs to focus on appealing to children and bringing in child readers more, so I'm glad to hear DC is doing that while also incorporating messages of inclusiveness and diversity for LGBTQIA+ people.